Unexpected Journey to the Basement

00:00 - Speaker 1 Hi, this is Paul Louis Cole. You're listening to the Brave Men Podcast. Today you'll meet one of the most important gardeners in the entire world. I wouldn't call himself that, but that's who he is. He is a man who's throwing the seed of the gospel everywhere, and you know that this man's a dangerous man when you look at his website because it's called on his YouTube, because it's called Upset the World Studios. It's not just hey, we're going to upset Texas, where he's based, we're not just going to upset America, we're going to upset the world studios. Man, I love that and that's what kind of man he is. You're going to meet Tim Ross today and Tim Ross is a spokesman for Christianity worldwide Millions and millions of people listening to his podcast, his YouTube things and the things he does, travels and speaks, but for 25 years a little more than that actually. 01:00 We'll get into the background of this. He was a pastor. He was a pastor of a local church, spoke internationally, but pastor of a church called Embassy. Before that he worked with a couple of other churches. Now he's a pastor's kid. It says he came to Christ in 1996, but he was a pastor's kid. He's a pastor's kid. That took a couple left turns and he took enough left turns that he came back to Christ and we're going to get that story the most important gardener in the world. I love that because basically he talks about one of his scriptures that he uses is Luke 14, 23. And the Lord said unto the servant go out into the highways and hedges, compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. And he talks about he's been called to the highways, byways, bushes and shrubs. There you go. I think it all kind of came together there. 01:51 I want to thank everybody in Christian Men's Network, all my friends, all our partners, all the men who make this possible to be on this podcast on a regular basis, and so we're on Spotify and Apple and all the different podcast places. But Brave Men is about wisdom and courage and Christian Men's Network is called to speak life into the cultures in which we're called to around the world over 100 nations around the world. If you need tools to disciple men, go to cmnmen. That's cmnmen, christian Men's Network, and, as I tell men all the time, we are a human justice mission focused on defeating fatherlessness and ending child abuse. We do that by speaking into the lives of men, raising up fathers and raising men to a new standard, and that standard for manhood is Christlikeness. We believe every child deserves a loving dad and I want to thank Tim Ross for being with us. 02:51 He came to the studios. We were here. You'll hear our conversation together. It was absolutely fire and I want to thank him for being here. I want you to, right now, just go upset the world studios and it's upset. The gram is his Instagram. I guess we're just upsetting a lot of things, which is great. We'll give his website when he's on the program. I want you to meet my new friend, great man of God, a father and a servant and a man who loves Jesus Christ but is speaking into the culture in a way that culture understands. Thank God for a man who's willing to just be a gardener. Here's Tim Ross. I'm here with my great friend. 03:46 - Speaker 2 We have so many mutual friends. We do absolutely. We should have been friends 20 years ago. 03:50 - Speaker 1 I feel like we already are yeah absolutely In that sense. Yeah, like you and I prayed over Dwayne when he got bishoped. That's right. That's exactly right. We're on the same stage. 03:59 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's exactly right, dwayne. White right, that's right. 04:11 - Speaker 1 He gets right. Dwayne white right, that's right. That's exactly right. Yeah, you and I pray over him. Yep, I think your prayer was better than mine. I like I go in like dude, that guy. That was really good. I don't know if mine, I don't know if I had, you know and mark was there yes absolutely that's right. So we've been on these same places yeah, yeah never actually did a bro hug no, yeah, yeah so anyway it's great to have you on. 04:27 - Speaker 2 Timing is perfect. I'm always cool. 04:28 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm always cool with this Bob Mufford talked about that one time years ago. He said God's timing is perfect, but I think he misses some great opportunities to be early. His sermon was I never forgot it, God is slow yeah, it's like slow cooking. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, Tim, where do you come from? You arrive here today. You're on the Brave Men podcast. Yes, sir. Where does all this start that you're talking about Jesus? 04:55 - Speaker 2 Okay, so I was born and raised in Southern California. I was born on June 26, 19. 05:00 - Speaker 1 We're both Cali guys. We 26, 19. We're both Cali guys. We are both Cali guys. Yeah, and that never leaves you. Never, never Like we're Texas people now, yeah, but you know our kids might be Texans. Yeah, absolutely Were your children born here. 05:11 - Speaker 2 They were born here, all right. So they're all Texans. 05:13 - Speaker 1 They're Texans, that's right you gotta have if you got them you, you have them. 05:24 - Speaker 2 If you got them you have them right and we pray for those guys. So you're born in englewood yep, englewood. June 26, 1975, sentinella hospital. Wow, lived off crenshaw and arborvita, uh, right across from fred price's first church before he built the dome, I was there, yeah, absolutely I remember, yep, yeah, so um, uh grew up there. 05:42 My parents, uh, worked in the city. Mommy had a city job with the LAPD. She worked there for 30 years, non-sworn. She was head supervisor in charge of payroll, so she knew everybody. She was at the Parker Center Parker Center headquarters. And then daddy worked for the US Postal Service for 33 years. They pastored a church bivocationally for 15 years in west covina, california. Yeah, and um started in the home, then moved out to um, a bowling alley which was right next to skate junction, where we skated our whole lives. Okay, um, lives, okay, um, uh, my, my parents, um, were the most integral people that I know were and are. My mom, my dad went to heaven last year, but mommy's still here. You know, most PKs have this thing where if their parents are in ministry, they see a lot of duplicity. Yeah, my parents were the same in public that they were in private. Like I never saw duplicity from these people Authentic, they were the most authentic people. 06:59 - Speaker 1 So does that give you a little bit better BS snifter? Absolutely. You know what I mean. 07:04 - Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely Like you see something, you go yeah, that guy wasn't the same, oh for sure, because God put you in some green rooms and oh yeah, some places, right, yeah, yeah and we used to sit in the back of um, my, um, my parents church, which was small I never got over 100 people in 15 years but I would be sitting in the back and you know they would have like a guest minister come and we'd be sitting in the back like writing me and my brother would try to make each other laugh and your brother older or younger, my younger brother I have an older brother, 10 years older brother. 07:31 - Speaker 1 He founded a gang, okay, um. 07:33 - Speaker 2 And then my younger brother, 17 months prior. He's in heaven as well, he died in a car accident september 17th of 2004, so lost him yeah, it's a tough, tough transition for your life. 07:44 - Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely. 07:45 - Speaker 2 But we were in the back of the church and we would be writing raps and trying to make each other laugh, and then a guest preacher might say, Daniel, just slip of the tongue. So Moses prayed for the king and we were like Daniel. Our biblical literacy was so high. Yeah, we had devotion six days a week. We had to come in at 6 pm every night singing for he is Lord, for he is Lord, he is risen from. And what is? 08:18 - Speaker 1 that in uh, what would that be in hip-hop or rap? 08:21 - Speaker 2 there's no, there is no equivalent for you can't do it maybe, maybe, um, you can't like us. Maybe. Maybe kendrick's day not like us is for you. 08:30 - Speaker 1 Drake hasn't covered it. No, no, he hasn't sampled it. Drake can't come back to the us so well, that's true. 08:36 - Speaker 2 Um. So I, we kind of grew. I grew up in this very authentic um environment, my parents, um the bet. If I were to explain my parents to anyone, my succinct version to explain without elaborating is they are the Pentecostal Huxtables. Wow, take cliff and Claire Huxtable. Yeah, fill them with the spirit. That's my mom and dad. My dad is Cliff, my mom is Claire and they're baptized in the Holy spirit. 09:06 Okay, so, um, we grew up in a. In the most, dad was a man of wisdom. Man of wisdom, right, mommy had more words than daddy, but when daddy spoke, it was a rap, it was a proverb. When daddy spoke, it was a proverb, right, right, so. So, um, when mom spoke, it was Psalms, when daddy spoke, it was a proverb. So I've never said that in my life. 09:27 And that that is great. That's the contextualization, so my so. So I grew up in the most openly communicative home Any black kid could ever grow up in. 09:40 First of all, we were already anomaly Cause I had my dad and my it's the reason why I was only in a gang for seven days instead of seven years, right, because I had a daddy in the house, right? I was more scared of my dad's belt than I was, of the lapd rounding us up or or the hood beating me up like I had a dad, right? So, um uh, january 14th of 1996, I'm sitting in the back row of my parents' church and the Holy Spirit convicts me of sins, of my sins Now. I had been sexually abused when I was eight years old by an older teenage boy that lived in our neighborhood, multiple times, from eight to 12, obviously that traumatized me, and eight to 12 is kind that traumatized me. Yeah, and 8 to 12 is kind of dark. 10:26 - Speaker 1 No, and it's a developmental area oh, absolutely, of our lives as men. Yeah, for sure, because what you express at 13 is what's happened between 7 and 12. Absolutely correct. 10:39 - Speaker 2 So, 12, I got exposed to pornography. A utility truck came to our cul-de-sac to fix a wire. He took his lunch break and he's reading a hustler on his lunch break which is the craziest thing of all time right just in the passenger seat reading a hustler magazine. Um, um, there's several kids by the passenger seat of this big truck. Hey, mister, let us see. I don't know what they're talking about. I go over and I see, uh, he, they're all asking to see a picture and he's like no, you're too young, I can't show you how old are you at this time? 11:14 - Speaker 1 12, 12, right, okay, so he buckles. 11:17 - Speaker 2 Which is what a fool, right? He buckles to the pressure of kids, horny 12 year olds right 11 year olds, and he should. 11:29 - Speaker 1 He shows us the centerfold because he probably has the same level of maturity exactly if this is what you're doing on your lunch break, right? 11:36 - Speaker 2 so he shows us the centerfold. First time I've seen a nude image of a woman's body and I just Paul, it might as well have been crack, there's no, you might as well have handed me a whiskey Wow, eight ball, it could have been anything Right. But I drank that image in and I. It was the first time I felt something different than repressed trauma and I'm like, oh, oh, I want more of that. So it had his hook in me. 12:11 - Speaker 1 So that's from 12 to 19 it was the pleasure, antidote to your trauma, absolutely. And I remember, uh, helping a well, trying to help a young man walk through his pornography addiction, and I remember him telling me he said he didn't know his mom, he just had a single dad. And it turns out his dad gets drunk and tells him hey, your mom was a prostitute and I was one of her clients. Wow, and so when you came along, she died of an overdose and so I took you. Wow, you came along, she died of an overdose and so I took you. Wow, so he said, since I found that out, pornography became the only place I could find my own space. 12:54 Wow, yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, it was like I understand it, the pleasure, I understand it absolutely. 12:58 - Speaker 2 From 12 to 19 you walked through that town from 12 to 19. That was wow, that was my drug like this was right. 13:06 This is the way I escaped fear, trauma, anxiety, uh, failure. Wow, uh, happiness. Right it was. I need to come down from being too happy, whatever so, but very isolated. I remember being in the back. You know, callie got those uh uh yucca trees, trees with the spikes on them and stuff like that. I would go in the backyard behind that tree and sit down in the dirt and look at a porn magazine. 13:35 - Speaker 1 So okay, and you're a preacher's kid at the same time, uh-huh, yeah, sitting in the back, yep, and the lyrics have changed, yeah. 13:42 - Speaker 2 Yeah Right, well, the lyrics have changed. Yeah Right, well, the lyrics haven't changed. My parents modeled what it was like to be disciples of Jesus, showed us the way and then prayed for us to get on it, but it was never like in this house you will be. It was like this is where we are and that leads to death and death and this leads to life. And you're gonna keep watching our life prove it right. Yeah, so on january 14th of 90, no, no, I gotta, I gotta go. Before that, uh, I was gonna be a homicide detective. 14:17 That's what I went to school for really so sequence is very important to me because I'm used to like, I was trained to like, so that fits your enneagram. Yeah well, I don't know all that stuff. I was trained to hand over information to a prosecuting attorney okay, you can't miss a detail. No, you can't so. 14:33 so, um, when I was 19, I was looking at porn at two o'clock in the morning, because I'll wait for everybody to go to sleep, obviously. So it's 2 am in the morning. My ears were so trained to hear a creak, a crack, a step, a thud, a whatever. I didn't hear nothing and my mom catches me looking at porn on big box TV VHS porn. 15:00 Oh wow, and she catches me. Man Like I am masturbating, fully busted, right, I'm busted, I don't know whether, to cover myself, grab the remote and she's just like what, what are you doing? And obviously I'm just paralyzed so outside her paradigm. Oh my goodness, she's over her kids. What so, being the woman of God she is, she's the pentecostal version of claire right. She goes to her room, closes the door, gets on her knees and starts praying. Yeah, Wow. 15:26 I'm so flooded with embarrassment and shame. I clean myself up, pop the tape on the VHS and I'm walking, go to the bathroom, wash up. I'm going down the hall. If I make a left, I go to my room. 15:40 If I make a right, I go to her room and if I make a left, I go to her room and if I make a left, I'm thinking in my mind okay, this is gonna be awkward in the morning. Um, she's probably gonna tell daddy, daddy's gonna have to talk with me like bro, I'll be looking at that blah blah, and maybe five days from now this will blow over. If I make a right, I have to tell her why I was looking at porn. Because, Paul, I know why I was looking at him. I wasn't just looking at porn, right, because I'm a horny kid. 16:12 This is the way I coped with trauma. It's coping mechanism. So if I went in that room I had to tell her and I know I wasn't a believer yet, but I know it was the holy spirit that even encouraged me, gave me the strength. However, we want to define that experience, I made a right, went into the room and I said mommy, I do not want you to think I'm dirty and I don't want you to think I'm a pervert. I got abused by and I named who did it and she just broke crying and um gave me the biggest hug, was so heartbroken to hear it as we began to talk more. I'm like it happened to Miles too. My younger brother. I said it happened to every kid on the block. My older brother caught our predator, um with our next door neighbor and that's when it stopped. When my older brother caught him with my next-door neighbor, it stopped for every kid in the neighborhood, but then we never talked about who else it happened to. 17:13 - Speaker 1 Right. 17:14 - Speaker 2 So I'm telling her that. 17:15 - Speaker 1 No, because shame covers up. Absolutely Shame covers up. See, this is what's remarkable. Is your older brother, even though at this point he's already in some dark stuff, right? Yeah, for sure, but he knows. Hey, one of my roles is to protect these kids, absolutely. I mean, that's just built into it is. 17:37 - Speaker 2 It is and the reason why. Remember my, my abuse happened at eight. Do you know why? Do you know why I never said anything? It wasn't because I was scared of him, my predator. If I'd have told my dad, he'd have killed the guy. Yeah. So imagine an eight-year-old yeah, dealing with that. I was actually protecting my predator. Yeah, I went home and I told my first real conscious lie because in my mind, the way I played out was my dad's going to kill him, my brother's going to bury him, they're going to go both go to prison. My mom's going to be a single mom and then we're probably going to be like we're just going to be struggling. 18:17 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's going to be bad, right, you got this all figured out. 18:20 - Speaker 2 At eight, at eight years old? Nope, I was out at eight at eight years. No, I was supposed to be playing with transformers and he-man, like I should have. Never my mind. So at eight, I'm making adult decisions and protecting people, yeah, which I know now through therapy, I should have just blew the whole spot up. And just because we're all resilient human beings and we're able of, we're capable of recovering from a whole bunch of, yeah, we are, uh, but I was eight and so I didn't know any better. 18:44 So, anyway, I tell Mommy Mommy tells me to go wake up my brother, miles. So Miles confesses that he was abused, and then my dad shares his story of pain and abuse when he was younger, as well as my mom. And in one night we should have been riddled with shame. Okay, wow, Paul. In one night which should have been riddled with shame, okay, Paul, in one night, it's like a slab of concrete comes off my chest and your whole family, the whole family. Lights go on for the whole family, right, I sleep like a baby that night. I wake up the next day and I'm like I'm never gonna have a secret again like I don't care what anybody says. 19:21 I the way I feel I will never. Someone's gonna always know what I'm going through. I don't care if they like it the way I feel I will never. Someone's gonna always know what I'm going through. I don't care if they like it at night. If you ask me how my day is you? You about to get it. So, um, flash forward to january 14th of 1996. I'm on the back row of uh we're, we're having church in a banquet room of a bowling alley. I'm on the back row. Sunday school has just ended. I was at the club until like 4 or 5 in the morning, took a nap. I drove my parents to church Because by this time we had moved to Apple Valley. 19:58 Oh, okay, yeah, we moved to the high desert because my brother had got into some gang situations that would have had us in a very bad situation. But the church was still in West Covina, so driving back almost 70 miles back to the church. So I drove him there. I'm sitting in the back and the Holy Spirit convicts me of my sins, literally says to me. The first words I've ever heard from the Holy Spirit were you're a sinner. And it wasn't a statement of condemnation, it was like a statement of fact, like you have a hat that says brotherhood. It was like I'm pointing out something. It's just boom, I know Right when he says it. It's the first time I'm ever aware of it. 20:41 Like I've heard all these sermons. You know my parents are pastors. I've heard everybody preach. I've never been convicted of my sins. And there's no sermon, there's a transition from sunday school to morning worship and the holy spirit just says you're, you're a sinner. I bought, I'm in the. I'm in the back row, bawling my eyes out like, oh, my God, I gotta give my life to Jesus now. Right, so, but but I'm like this service just started and this is a Pentecostal Church. I might be three hours from right. 21:13 I can literally yeah, another three hours from that where you can walk through the altar right before I could watch it also. 21:20 so I'm sitting there and I'm like, racking my brain, like I can't wait until the altar call, like there was an urgency. Wow, so my dad, who was, uh, officiating the service that day my dad just so happens on this day, this wasn't regular, but he opened it up for testimony service. Really he's like does anybody have a testimony they want to share? So these five people got up in front of me and I pop up, cause I'm like I got to do this now, right. And um, the five people in front of me was so long winded I was like, please shut up, hurry up, sit down. 21:54 But then the enemy starts attacking my mind and I can hear him very vividly telling me you cannot get saved today because you got a porn stash in between your mattresses. You're having sex with these two girls that are best friends and they don't know. And you got to, like he gave me a list of things I needed to get, right, right. And I'm sitting there like, oh, maybe I, maybe I should wait until I get all this cleaned up. And then, after all of that bombardment, I hear the Holy spirit, that same voice that said you're a sinner. The Holy Spirit says hey, if you don't walk out of here with me today, you won't do any of that stuff. You're not going to take care of this list. 22:33 Yeah, you need me for this. Yeah, okay. 22:37 - Speaker 1 We always judge ourselves based on our intentions Exactly. We judge others based on their actions, right, right, exactly. 22:43 - Speaker 2 We judge others based on our actions, right, right. So I was like okay, so my dad finally gets to me and I had never stood up in church or volunteered. 22:50 - Speaker 1 So he's looking at you wondering. 22:52 - Speaker 2 Oh, he has no idea why I'm standing up and how old are you now? 22:55 - Speaker 1 This is a couple years later. I'm 20. Yeah, I'm 20 and a half, right. 22:59 - Speaker 2 So he goes. I think Tim has something to say. He goes. I think Tim has something to say, sort of like, yeah, and it's a small church. So everybody turns around like what's this dude about to say? He never said what are you doing? You're the driver for your parents. You don't do any of this right. And I said I give up. 23:18 Wow, that's what you said, yeah, that's what I said, and there was just silence. That is strong, and my dad's looking, my mom's looking, everybody's looking and nobody says anything. So then I just said I need to give my life to Jesus right now and my mama let out the biggest, blackest, loudest hallelujah you have ever heard from any black woman from the South in your whole life. 23:42 - Speaker 4 Hallelujah Jesus. 23:48 - Speaker 2 And I walked down the aisle. Wow, no sermon, no altar call. I walked down the aisle and gave my life to Jesus, january 14th of 1996. I'll never forget it, as long as I can. 23:56 - Speaker 1 Was your little brother there. 23:58 - Speaker 2 My little brother. He had already my little brother and my homie, steve, both who have died since I have died, since I have died since. Yeah, they came to pick me up because my sunday consisted of driving my parents to church, dapping them up and then going to venice beach yeah, I know to hang out at venice beach until six. Go eat at either doolins or m&ms. So food places, yeah, and then cruise crenshaw to 2 am. 24:25 - Speaker 4 That was. 24:25 - Speaker 2 Sunday yeah, that was Sunday, and they came after church. My brother and I were very, very close 17 months apart. So Miles and Steven come to pick me up so we can roll out to Venice Beach. And he looks in my eyes, Paul, no words. He looks in my eyes and goes oh man no really, oh my God, you, you didn't. And I said yeah, I did. And steven is going. What are you talking about? 24:58 - Speaker 1 he could see the light. 24:59 - Speaker 2 He saw the light like the light turned on saw it in my eyes, no words and and and um I said yeah, I did, and Steven gateway to the heart. 25:08 - Speaker 1 What are you doing? 25:09 - Speaker 2 yeah, and like, what are you guys talking about? And he was like are you, are you cool with me saying the n-word? I want to give it to you exactly the way it said yeah he said he told Steven, this nigga gave his life to Jesus. And I said I did. And he goes oh nigga man, oh bro, I'm so proud of you, I'm so, I'm so happy for you. Steven's like oh bro, that's so dope. And then they're like now, what do we gotta do? 25:32 yeah, they went straight to venice, bro. They left me and they went to venice and I went home, they didn't even take you. 25:39 - Speaker 1 They didn't even take you. 25:40 - Speaker 2 They're like he's not going with us in 24 hours. Every friend I had was gone. Really, I was a local rapper yeah, I was. I had some regional kind of notoriety and, um, in in 24 hours I had my parents, a king james version thompson chain reference bible and my ps1 and that started my my journey with Jesus. 26:05 - Speaker 1 Wow, and from there you moved into ministry at your parents' church, or was? 26:10 - Speaker 2 it. So I preached my first sermon five weeks after I gave my life to Jesus. 26:14 - Speaker 1 And what about your brother? What was his journey then? 26:18 - Speaker 2 My brother didn't give his life to Jesus until 2002. 26:22 - Speaker 1 Okay, so it was much later than that, a couple of years before he had the car wrecked. 26:26 - Speaker 2 Yeah, he gave his life to Jesus two years before he died. Wow yeah, oh, wait a minute. My brother's story is better than mine. Okay, my brother is at his house in his apartment 1.30 in the morning. My dad historically works nights for USPS. Okay, okay. 26:47 - Speaker 1 So, and this is 2002. 26:48 - Speaker 2 So cell phones are not. They're not ubiquitous. They're not, yeah, they're not ubiquitous. So so I'm, I'm, uh, uh. I'm in texas and living my life, and my brother's at home 1 30 in the morning, drinking a 40. My dad's at work he has a little cell phone, but back then you got minutes, right you got minutes and rolled out and nighttime and pay per minute. 27:09 Right all that stuff cheaper so it's, it's breaking cases of emergency. Right home phone is still dominant, you know too. So my dad turns his cell phone off overnight because only person's gonna call is my mom and she has the line to the office at this job. The holy spirit tells my dad around 1 30 in the morning, go get your cell phone and turn it on. And he's like, why, yeah? And he goes, go turn your cell phone on. So my dad goes out, gets to the car, powers the thing. On no less than 60 seconds from him powering it on, the phone rings and it's my brother, miles, miles, is at home drinking a 40 and the holy spirit convicts him of his sins. Wow, he doesn't know what to do. So he calls my dad what I mean. 28:02 - Speaker 1 That is amazing right there. That's amazing he calls your daddy he calls. So your dad was. Your dad had this father thing on him that he was a safe place to call my dad was the mascot, for he was the father for the whole hood. 28:20 - Speaker 2 He never let us spend the night at anybody else's house yeah first wrestlemania. He, he bought, he bought the pay-per-view and and and bought 20 pizzas and had every kid over and everybody came and he got everybody to the house. 28:34 I didn't find this out till I was an adult, but everybody came to the house. So my mom, who had a strong gift of discernment, could like literally peg all the kids and tell us which ones we can't hang around them, because she can see through everybody. So, anyway, he calls my daddy. 60 seconds later, the phone's ringing Hello, hey Dad, it's Miles. Hey son, I need to give my life to Jesus. Do I need to wait till Sunday? And he's like no. Romans 10 and 9 says if you confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that Christ Jesus that Jesus is Lord and God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. 29:13 And he's like oh yeah, I forgot, thanks, hangs up the phone. Hangs up the phone, Gives his life to Jesus, finishes his 40. Finishes it, yeah, tops it off because he paid for it. Right, he paid for it. He's a good steward. And then he was a believer until he went home. 29:32 - Speaker 1 Wow yeah, wow, yeah, that's an amazing story. So, uh, let me go into a couple other things. We're talking to Tim Ross and, uh, I want to go back to some things that you've said on your website. Let me hit this deal. So you grew up in Cali, you get here and you minister with Potter's House. 29:53 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I was at Potter's House for 13 and a half years. Were you really? Yeah, that long, mm-hmm? I was on staff there for four, from 06 to 2010. I was the young adult pastor. Bishop Jakes took a chance on me, but I met. Six to 2010. I was the young adult pastor. Bishop jakes took a chance on me, but I met juliet there in 98. 30:08 - Speaker 1 We got married in 99, our first you and your wife got married in 99. 30:11 - Speaker 2 Yes, okay, nathan was born in 2008 and then, uh, noel was born in 2010. Two boys, two boys we've been pregnant five times but we have two boys. 30:20 - Speaker 1 Okay, we lost three. Yeah, I understand that. Yeah, so you were at potter's house then. 30:25 - Speaker 2 Uh, then you were gateway yeah, joined gateway may of 11 and um 2011 really at a strong growth time. 30:33 - Speaker 1 Right then, absolutely what was going on? 30:36 - Speaker 2 um, they well, when I got to gateway, gateway was like I felt like I was switched at birth, like even though, um, uh, black pentecostal church is my experience, the system side of things, and like how to do church, I was gateway the whole time. Yeah, interesting. So I felt like I was switched that break. When I got to gateway I was like, oh, this is, this is the way I like doing it, this is the way I've always done it right, yeah, this is the way I did it as a young adult pastor and now that I'm here with y'all. 31:05 So they were kind enough to allow me to be on staff for a season before they sent me to plant Embassy City Church in September of 2015. 31:15 - Speaker 1 So that planted in 2015. And the Lord blessed that. You know I like that's a euphemism. You know we do as Christians. The Lord blessed it. You and your wife went and worked your butts off that's right For seven years, for seven years, that's right. 31:29 - Speaker 4 That's right. 31:29 - Speaker 1 And because my mutual friend, who's also my pastor and one of my closest friends, phil Pringle yes, so he's walking a guy around his facility that they have there in Oxford Falls in Australia, and the man says after a while he looks around, he's you know, it's an impressive place, and he goes man, it's amazing what God's done here. Phil looked at him and said, wow, you should have seen it when God had it by himself. So it's James, the brother of Jesus, who says faith and works. 31:56 - Speaker 2 That's exactly right. 31:57 - Speaker 1 That's exactly right you guys went and planted a church. That's right. 32:13 - Speaker 2 Worked hard. That's an Irving Texas, Irving Texas, Las Colinas, and so you enjoyed pastoring, loved it Really. Oh, I loved it. I loved it and, um, it was because my gift misses mix is apostolic pastoral. Okay. So I, I knew I wasn't going to be a pastor for like 30 years because I once I build something, I'm, I'm over it. Okay, I'm like You're a builder, it's done. 32:26 Somebody can take this right. What I was shocked by is that it was only seven years. I thought I would do 15. And we got to seven and the Holy Spirit was like. 32:36 - Speaker 1 Your season as a lead pastor is coming to an end, and that's when everything started taking off the podcast and it had already. 32:44 - Speaker 2 So let me give you the timeline. Yeah, because a lot of people think I left pastoring because a podcast blew up which couldn't be further from the truth. Okay, so here's the sequence september of 2021 is when the holy spirit says your season as a lead pastor is coming to an end. I said, oh, that had to have been surprising oh, I thought I sinned, I thought I struck the rock twice. 33:05 - Speaker 1 I literally thought I was Moses. Your time is done because, yeah, exactly, you blew it, right yeah. 33:09 - Speaker 2 And I thought I blew it, like Moses, like did. I strike the rock twice, and water still came out, but now you're telling me, I'm going to die on a mountain. 33:15 - Speaker 1 They're going to promised land. 33:27 - Speaker 2 You're not going Exactly, exactly. So what happened? So obviously the Holy Spirit assuaged that doubt and fear and was like bro, you're good, well done, You're done Right. I told you when to start, this is when you stop. Well, if more pastors did that, well, I don't want to go down that rabbit trail. Bring me into that. 33:40 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, but I'm just saying If more pastors would father the next generation, then they wouldn't have to worry about it, exactly Because they would go. Oh well, it's obvious. 33:48 - Speaker 2 Here's this guy. That's right. So there was a guy that I was mentoring for three years. 33:52 - Speaker 1 God had to kill Moses in order for Joshua to thrive. That's interesting, huh, shouldn't be that way. Yeah, because it was like Moses is dead and he had to tell him a few times Exactly, and then he had to do it himself. 34:03 - Speaker 2 That's exactly right, exactly right. It would have been good if Moses would have just become the Hobab that he needed during his journey. Anyway, woulda, coulda shoulda. 34:13 So the Lord shows me who my successor is. So anyway, september I want to go in sequence September of 21 is when the Lord tells me that it takes three months. It takes between October and December, end of December, first of January, for Juliet and I to get on the same page, cause she is like what, what are, what is happening? I said, baby, I don't know, but I guess he's signing this up for a new adventure. So that was January of 22. Independently, God, the Holy Spirit shows both Juliet and myself who the successor of the church should be. 34:45 It's somebody already in the house. No, it's somebody at my friend's church. Oh, okay, on the side, I've never heard him preach in my life. And the Holy Spirit said that's your successor. Okay, so I have him come preach in March, juliet, and I confirmed it in April. I go talk to his pastor. Hey, I believe God told me that the guy that works for you is supposed to be the successor to me. He prays about it, tells him uh, we talk about. 35:19 - Speaker 1 his name is Tim as well so Tim ross goes to Tim rivers right and um you didn't have to change the initials on the towels. 35:27 - Speaker 2 Nothing, yeah, so by may of 22. We know that Tim Ross, Tim Rivers, is going to be my successor that same month. Uh, my friend Byron Copeland has a son named JB who um had a podcast with his friend. He asked me to come on the podcast. I was like, of course, I love the next generation. 35:52 - Speaker 3 I'll do the we'll do that thing, I'll do the podcast. 35:55 - Speaker 2 I do the podcast, I'm leaving and the Holy Spirit says this is what I need you to do. I said no so? 36:05 - Speaker 1 so, God. 36:06 - Speaker 2 So one finishes before you know what the next thing is one is starting to finish because I'm still in the transition period, overlapping and mentoring, getting it all set up, that's right, that's right, but you're, you're praying, you and your wife, juliet, you're praying. 36:22 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Lord, what is this next thing? 36:23 - Speaker 2 yeah what is the next thing, you know? And he tells me to do this podcast, and I'm vehemently opposed to it. What I literally tell the holy spirit is I'd rather throw a penny in the ocean than to do a podcast. I really thought that was going to be the effect of me doing a podcast. Right like a penny in the ocean is not going to change a ripple in the ocean. Right like there's five million podcasts. What am I doing here? And the holy spirit's like I need you to do this podcast. 36:50 So I started praying into like, okay, what type of podcast does this need to be? And then he says, um, the same way you have mentored and discipled people privately is the way I need you to talk on this podcast publicly. And I said, oh, okay, then I'm going to get canceled Because you know how I talk privately. And he goes go ahead and get canceled. And I said I mean okay, I'd rather not, but if you say so, I mean okay, I'd rather not, but if you say so. So we prerecorded five episodes in June of 22, and the first episode aired on YouTube July 6th of 2022. Okay, and in three and a half weeks we had 25,000 subscribers. Oh yeah, on a bone dry account, like we didn't. I didn't have like an account that I think, yeah, I didn't have a thing. 37:41 Yeah, you know, and so um, by the now, now was it called? 37:46 - Speaker 1 was it called basement at the time? Yeah, so you started, so God began to give you a download. Here's what it's called because your website. Let me just make sure everybody knows what your website is it. It'll be in the show notes Upsettheworldcom. Yes, sir, that houses everything. Yeah, which houses everything which is part of the whole basement piece. That's correct. Which your book? 38:10 - Speaker 2 Welcome to the Basement. Yes, sir, last year. Welcome to the Basement. 38:12 - Speaker 3 Yes sir, came out last year Walking to the Basement, came out last year, which is based on Act 17. 38:16 - Speaker 1 Correct, which is basically where they came to, jason and those guys that's right, like, have you ever wondered? Like Paul and Silas kind of just stood off the side and they go. 38:25 - Speaker 2 I don't know if they were in the basement of his house going shh everybody be quiet, exactly. Like an Anne Frank thing yeah yeah, yeah, they're in the walls, for sure, yeah yeah yeah, then they grab Jason, pull him in there. 38:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, but that phrase that happened right. There is one of my favorite phrases these are those men who have turned the world upside down. That's right. That's right Now. The last part of that. I was looking at this today, Actually, I'm book on the book of acts yes, sir, listening to it. 38:54 - Speaker 4 Yeah, turn the work out. 38:54 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I don't know if that counts, it does count. Is reading, absolutely it does. Audio books are a huge audio books. Okay, yeah, so, uh, but he's doing the whole thing on the acts. 39:03 It's a great book by nt right, but I caught this one phrase in the new living. It says jason, the other believers had to post bond to get released. And I thought, how hilarious is this that they post bond? I mean, would you say, okay, the guy shows up, he's, he comes to to speak for you. You meet him in the green room on saturday, sunday morning for the pastor's thing. They go dude, where were you yesterday? I had to. I had to post bond, exactly. I think it bailed out. 39:31 - Speaker 4 I was arrested. 39:32 - Speaker 1 I post bond, triple a bond, yeah you know best bonders that's right call bubba, yep, yep, yeah and uh, like would you have you go, dude, I don't know, you know really let him preach. 39:45 - Speaker 2 Gotta let him preach. We gotta know the circumstances. It's public record. 39:49 - Speaker 1 But once we know he wasn't slinging crack or anything, I'm gonna let him preach so, so this thing upset the world, turn things upside down, and you put it in your book. It is the word upset yeah, turning things upside down, but also making things right, absolutely. 40:06 - Speaker 2 So the kingdom is upside down, right, right, upset we take it to mean anger, right, I just upset that can Right, right. The Bible is the most upsetting book that's ever been written. Jesus lived the most upsetting life that's ever been lived and when he encounters us, our life gets turned upside down with the message, love and hope of Jesus Christ. Now, because the kingdom is already upside down, it's really right side up. Right. If you try to save your down, it's really right side up, right. If you try to save your life, you will lose it. Yeah, the way to get is to give, right, right. The way up is down, essentially. Yeah, so he's disrupted the kingdoms. He disrupted my Of this world. Yeah, he disrupted my life and I have committed my life to upsetting others. Yeah, with the message, love and hope of Jesus Christ. 41:00 - Speaker 1 Well, and you do it well and God's blessed the podcast. 41:03 - Speaker 2 You went from 25,000, whatever views or downloads or whatever the deal was. Yeah, we've had over. Now you're millions and millions and millions. Yeah, I think it's like 50 million views now. 41:14 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so the Lord's using it it so it's bigger than a penny, yeah, so now, hey, by the way, callback I've had of any interview I've been on, it's the greatest callback to that penny for sure so let me ask you a question. So now, uh, the opening song of your podcast, yeah, is that? 41:35 - Speaker 2 you uh, on the basement it is me okay. On wide open it's ai okay. 41:41 - Speaker 1 No, really it's, it's really, it's ai. I made that song with ai, but that's you, yeah. 41:46 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I was a rapper I almost got signed to a deal when I was 16 because the lyrics are awesome. You know performance yeah, it's not about performance, that it's about posture. 41:53 - Speaker 1 That's right, absolutely All right. Anointing over algorithm? Yes sir, I'm not chasing viral, I'm chasing hope. That's exactly right. Is that right? Is that some of the stuff? 42:05 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's exactly what that is. Yeah, yeah. It's great. I you know, when I was pastoring 27 years pastoring Right when I was pastoring 27 years pastoring right I had I'm an introvert right, so I I recharge when I'm alone. I love people and they drain me. It's true. A lot of great pastors yeah so. 42:24 I'm an introvert yeah, um, I I preached for 27 years all around the world. I've been to Australia over 30 times. I've been to Singaporeapore, malaysia, uk, caribbean, canada, latin america, everywhere. My instagram account had 30 000 people and I was just as happy. Yeah, as a lark in a nest. Yeah, I guess that's where they're happy. 42:48 - Speaker 1 Yeah I don't know. 42:49 - Speaker 2 I don't know where larks are happy I, I, um, 30 000 people is a small city, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of people, man, like you know what I mean. We live in a pretty big world 30,000 people following you, interested in your preaching Yay. And then, um, I start this podcast and that same Instagram account has like 840,000 followers now and all I'm doing is just like sitting down talking about the stuff I preached about. 43:19 - Speaker 1 Well, that's the thing, and that's the beauty of of uh, upset the gram and all the things you're doing in the basement and um, and so now it's on YouTube. 43:29 - Speaker 2 So YouTube? Okay, it's on, uh, itunes. 43:33 - Speaker 1 Tim Ross YouTube. Yeah, and it'll take me to the basement. 43:36 - Speaker 2 If you put in Upset the World Studios, it'll all pop up. It goes to everything. Yes, sir. 43:41 - Speaker 1 Well, when I go on YouTube and put in your name and podcast, up comes your environment, yes sir. Your atmosphere, yes sir. 43:49 - Speaker 2 Absolutely yes, sir. 43:50 - Speaker 1 Okay. 43:59 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you're doing that, uh, your wife, your boys are in, uh, like are older now 17 17 and soon to be 15. 44:01 - Speaker 1 17 and soon to be 15. So in high school, yep homeschooling homeschooled them. 44:03 - Speaker 2 You guys are homeschooling well, I didn't hold school. Juliet homeschooled them, um. But uh, nathan graduated last year when he was 16. Wow, um, he graduated three months after his 16th birthday, really. He now has his driver's permit and he works at chick-fil-a, which is the best discipleship program for any teenager. Those guys so he works six hours a day yeah, six hours. 44:22 - Speaker 1 So he's learned how to say my pleasure he yeah, he's already said it more times than I have you know, I'm telling you man, true, kathy, I met him once and, uh, I look at what the family's done and every time I see a chick-fil-a that's full, I'm like, oh, it just makes me so happy. It's like going by Hobby Lobby and seeing the parking lot full and you go because you know what's happening on the other side and you know that those it's like one of the prayers we pray my son pastors in Fort Worth. 44:52 One of the prayers they pray all the time is God, fill up the parking lots of every life-giving church, amen. And when I see people are doing things where the other side of it is the increase of the kingdom and they're pouring funds into things, and the Green family's rescued an entire university. 45:08 That's right, absolutely, absolutely. They didn't have to do that. That's exactly right. Somebody gets mad at Joyce Myers because they don't like her style or haircut or something. Right and dude, there's nowhere I go in the world that she, that david, her son that's right hasn't been. That's right already that's been in 85 countries. Yeah, yeah yeah, he's already been there. That's right. He's already put money that's right through that ministry. That's exactly right into stuff that people are doing on the ground. 45:34 - Speaker 2 That's right that you'll never hear about. That's exactly right. And they'll never tell you no, they don't. It's like, yeah, they're too busy getting on with the mission. That's right. 45:43 - Speaker 1 Doing the kingdom, that's exactly right, see, I dig that stuff, that's what it's about man keeping your head down doing the stuff. That's right. So how do you? How do you do? How do you do introvert, yeah, and millions of people know your stuff well um, you know what I mean. 45:57 - Speaker 2 Yeah, the easiest way for me um I know that God has my mandate is to normalize vulnerability, okay and you can't do that without being vulnerable yeah, and transparent, so people have a window into my life and, more importantly, my ways, where I, where I hold tension, where God is still working on me trying to smooth me out. 46:20 They are privy to that in a way that other people that have been known for faith or preaching or whatever haven't given access to right. But I can't normalize vulnerability in a closet. I can't normalize vulnerability in a closet. I can't normalize vulnerability in a dark corner. So my life is on display to be a spectacle that, hopefully, Jesus Christ can be glorified. 46:47 - Speaker 1 It's a sacrifice. It is a sacrifice. 46:48 - Speaker 2 You've sacrificed your life on the sake of others. 46:51 - Speaker 1 It's really what it is. 46:52 - Speaker 2 Absolutely. 46:54 - Speaker 1 It's that tension of a knife or a sharp instrument, let's say correct can either be a point of healing in the hands of a surgeon or death or death in the wrong hands. Right, absolutely so now this vulnerability for you and what you're doing, because on the same day that we're taping this or recording it, yeah, whatever taping, sorry, old enough to be taping is recording I said, I said, oh, I said an og thing, and you nodded your head, bro, absolutely absolutely absolutely it's like the same day we were recording this. 47:29 Uh the kelsey and uh taylor get engaged, wow, okay, wow, so there's vulnerability. Yep, it's really fascinating to me. Yeah, so taylor has used which I so admire her. Uh, like her gift. Yep, taylor swift uses vulnerability, like all her songs are about her yeah, what her experience is and what she's been through. She did a whole album without john mayer. That's right. 47:54 - Speaker 2 That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah, her pain is heavy. Her songwriting skills are crazy. 48:03 - Speaker 1 So there's vulnerability. 48:08 - Speaker 4 Yes, sir, that does one thing on people for people. 48:10 - Speaker 1 And then there's the vulnerability with you that helps bring healing. Yes, sir, the things you're sharing, you've already shared For a lot of men who have never articulated the pain and trauma they went through in their early life, whether that was abuse in the home from a parental figure, or whether that was trauma from a neighborhood child, whether that was sexual or physical or mental abuse yes, sir. Or physical or mental abuse yes sir, because they all have. They may come from different tranches, but they all have. You know what happens out of that. That's correct, the cause and effect side of it. 48:45 - Speaker 2 That's right, absolutely. 48:46 - Speaker 1 Can be a lot of the same things, but for you to do that is bringing healing. And I say that with these other people and I don't know their lives. Right for sure. 49:02 You know, I don't know their lives, right for sure. You know, I don't know her, uh, but I do know that so many people do what you do in terms of podcasts in order to be well known, right in order, and they celebrate, hey, I got this and I got that and I did this and I did that. And then it's sort of like, um, what's that? What's the? Uh? Wizard of oz, it's kind of wizard of oz behind the curtain and go, yeah, yeah yeah, there's really actually nothing there. 49:18 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, there's nothing there. 49:21 - Speaker 1 And the vulnerability and all the stuff that they said really was a it's a front. 49:26 Yeah, in order to create this thing, yeah, but God's put it on your heart and your wife. You guys had to have prayed about this Like baby, I'm going to talk about this stuff. Yep, because there's some things like like uh, I think an easy, the church is an easy target and it kind of ticks me off a little bit because I get guys a lot that'll say and they'll put it on their podcast or their instagram or whatever and they'll say, ah, the church doesn't talk about this stuff. I go well, because where they do talk about it is if you went to that group on Tuesday night with Pastor Johnson or Pastor Jamal, you know he's going to talk about this stuff. 50:06 That's right, but he's not going to bring it out on. 50:08 - Speaker 2 Sunday morning in a celebration service. Yeah, that's not the conversation. 50:13 - Speaker 1 So you're slamming him because you never went to the Tuesday night deal, exactly when he starts talking about masturbation. Yes, exactly that's right, because it's not the place on a Sunday morning to talk about some of that. 50:26 Sunday morning is the State of the Union. There you go, and it's the time of bringing hope. That's right. And I want people to walk out of a Sunday let's say a Saturday night, sunday morning, whatever the case may be but that celebration service, yeah, I want them walking out going. I'm going to crush this thing this week. Man, there's hope, that's exactly right. There's life in Jesus. 50:47 That's right, absolutely he came to heal my hurts man. Something. Heal my hurts man. Something happened. You prayed with somebody, something happened, and now this stuff that we're dealing with, I'm going to this small group on wednesday night. Yep, and something's going to happen. 50:58 That's exactly I'm going to be able to share about, about. You know, what I'm praying about is my son yep, who's dealing with this. Yeah, such and such, yeah, where you go into a, I think, gender specific thing in which you can share about something, even to some of the deeper things yeah, for sure, right yeah absolutely. And now you're with some guys and go dude. You know what those guys are talking about, or what they talked about. Yeah, I'm dealing with that. Yeah, for sure, Right. 51:21 That's how it should be, and so I think it's an easy target. Yep, and so what's happened is the beauty of what you're doing, because, basically, based on research, 25 to 30% of people who say they're followers of Jesus Christ not just, oh, I'm a Christian, like a Christian nation, like Germany was in 1940. Right, but people who basically say I follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, 25 to 30% don't go to a what we would call a formalized church setting. Wow, right, wow, that being the case, that's you, yeah, and now you're all of that. You're the home group. Yeah, you're the. We didn't talk about this. 52:05 - Speaker 2 It's very true. It's very true. You're that thing. 52:07 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I love your crew. By the way, hector I don't know the names of the other derrick and juliana, dexter and juliana yes, sir, juliana. Dude, that girl, she. What an infectious laugh. 52:17 - Speaker 2 She's amazing she, she's, she's just started her maternity transition okay, she's about to have her baby, like any day oh, wow, and so this was her first day without her I this was the saddest podcast I've done since we started white open like asking the guys to laugh. It's terrible, huh what we were all in pain. 52:35 - Speaker 1 We were like we, we need a woman here yeah, yeah, but it's, it's been, uh, it's awesome, and so you are that yes, there's so many people? Yeah, uh, what's the age group of people listening to you? It's got to be. It's got to be from my age down. It is it is. 52:49 - Speaker 2 Our primary audience is 25 to 34, which is exactly where. 52:54 - Speaker 1 I want to be. That's fantastic. 52:55 - Speaker 2 The Holy Spirit told me that my daily show, the Basement, is an in-person show. Right, it's non-negotiable. Right, I won't do it if we're not in person, right, right. But Wide Open is a daily show three hours. Nine to 10 is just news and culture, both secular and sacred. 10 to 12,. We just take phone calls from literally all over. 53:18 - Speaker 1 Okay, that's where you go through the whole thing and you start you've got answers. Yeah, Like you did a whole piece on divorce. Yeah, absolutely, and that was awesome. Yes, sir, Thank you, Because you go full on. I mean, it's it's like hey, this is okay the piece I liked. Yes, sir, and if somebody hasn't listened to it, I just want to say again, go to it. The book is Welcome to the Basement, but the website, like I said you go Tim. Ross. But Upset the World will get you somebody into Upset the? 53:48 - Speaker 2 World Dot com. Easy to remember Dot com. 53:49 - Speaker 1 Yes, sir, and if you haven't listened to it, but you went straight up and I love the whole piece you did on divorce, which is hey, if you're going to get divorced, then let's do this. Let's do it this way. You have to do a ceremony with everybody there, repeat the same vows, except I take this back. That's right. Absolutely Everybody in the same spot, that's right. Everybody there and in front of everybody say okay, I take this back, because if you really step back and look at it, you go. I really didn't want to do that. 54:20 - Speaker 2 I mean if you take out abuse of any kind mental physical and you take out adultery, and you take out abandonment, which can be physical, mental as well financial. Why are we divorcing again? 54:38 - Speaker 1 yeah, irreconcilable differences yeah, that's you just don't want to do the hard work of pushing through ego pride. Okay, there, it is right, there, right. 54:47 - Speaker 2 We don't want to do the work, right, we don't want to do the work, so, so, if, if you don't want to do the work, I flew to seattle for your stinking wedding, where you, you made a vow that you said you were going to live happily ever after and you're going to do all the work and for better, for worse, for richer, for poor and sickness and in hell to death. To his part, take it back. Yeah, and I want cake again. I want cake again. I want that raggedy fish again yeah, and, and I want my toaster back. 55:11 That's exactly. I want my housewarming gift back, exactly. I want my $1,500 Home Depot card back. I want it back. And if you can't give it back, I want the shower head that you bought it with. Just unscrew it and give it back to me, and mail it to me, yeah exactly. 55:33 - Speaker 1 Like I just think we let a lot of people off the hook for marriage. Well, we make it too soft, yeah. So basically, what we do as men and this is basically men, listening to this Tim what we have a tendency to do is we rationalize things, right. So we go well, I'm not as bad as that guy, and Jesus talked about that Well, I'm not as bad as that guy. Well, at least I didn't do this Right. And so what we do is we lower standards because we don't want to have to live in a standard. So we rationalize that. We say, well, you know what, I can see why that guy did that. I can see why that happened. Because we don't want to have to live by a standard, right. So we rationalize and we just justify. When we justify okay, that's why that guy did that, that's okay over there, because I don't want to have to live to a standard in my life, right, because I don't want to have to do the work, right. 56:17 Yeah I don't want to have to do the work right. And you've done the work. Yeah, you've done it in your own personal life. 56:22 - Speaker 2 Absolutely, you're very honest about it. Yes, sir I have vulnerable again yeah, I have been. I've been a believer of Jesus for 29 and a half years. I've been in some form of counseling and or therapy for 27. Wow, so before it was in vogue, before it was a mental health crisis, like it was a thing. 56:39 - Speaker 1 No. 56:40 - Speaker 2 I was doing my work Because when I gave my life to Jesus, I was a born again porn addict. My life, my surrender to Jesus did not render me free from porn and masturbation. That was a process. I had porn before I had Jesus. So he saved my soul, but my body needed a whole nother. It was a process, and a lot of people don't like to hear that, because we love the. Looked at my hands and they look new, and I looked at my feet and they did too. And that's just not everybody's situation. 57:17 - Speaker 1 What we want is we want God to be a magician Right. 57:21 - Speaker 2 We want a Thanos snap, we want six infinity stones and we want a Thanos snap. 57:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's why we like TikTok, that's why we like yeah, that's why we like reels. 57:37 - Speaker 2 More than we like yeah, that's why we like reels. I get yeah, more than we like stories exactly, exactly, give it to me seconds. 57:39 - Speaker 1 Give it to me boom, I'm good. Yeah, yeah, got this thing prayed over. It bam done. Hey, I want to go through a couple things. Uh, real quick, what color are your glasses? Yellow, they are yellow. They are yellow okay, because they kind of look in this light a little gold or like a gold yellow like they're yellow. 57:51 - Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're from Germany. Okay and how'd you choose? They're from Germany. 57:54 - Speaker 1 Yeah. And how'd you choose yellow? Because? It's like a trademark now. If you walk around, with like purple glasses or something we go who's? 58:01 - Speaker 2 that guy? Well, here's the thing. Okay, who's he trying to be? This is a shameless plug that I'm not sponsored for. Outfit out of Germany makes this frame called the K3. Okay, I have this same frame in eight colors, including this one. These are my work glasses. 58:19 - Speaker 1 Okay, but I've seen you in other colors. Yes, sir, because you wore some on a pulpit. 58:23 - Speaker 2 Yeah, were they red or something. I've worn red and all that kind of stuff, yeah, okay, okay, but these are now my work glasses. 58:34 If I'm going to be on someone's podcast, okay, these are my work glasses. My neutral glasses are gray, like a smoky grayish color, and when I have those on, people squint Paul, and they're like I think I've seen you before, but if I have on these, they'll. It's like I'm I'm superman with these on everybody's, like I, I know you, but then when I put on the gray ones, they're like Clark, we're Superman. I never see you guys together. 58:54 - Speaker 1 So, they're yellow. Yeah, it's great. I did a project once. I did a TV commercial with a guy named James Garner who was an actor for years. He was what was the deal? He was a maverick, but he was like he was a. The name sounds familiar, yeah, he was in the Notebook and all that stuff. Okay okay, but he was what was the show where he was? A lawyer Anyway so James Garner. 59:21 So he walks out and we're at his house and he says are these glasses okay? And I go yeah, I think they're okay. He says I got some other ones and he opens up this case and there's like three rows of like eight each. Oh my gosh. And I pull out some. They look the same as what he has on. Yep, I pull out some other ones. They look the same. I pull out some other ones. They look the same. I'm like am I getting punked or something? Am I on a show or what? And I don't know. So finally I just close them. 59:55 - Speaker 2 I go right. The ones you have on are perfect. 59:56 - Speaker 1 I forgot that, that's really funny, seriously, this selection. Yeah, that's really funny. Put them away, yep, all right. So, uh, a couple other things you're doing the show you've got. You travel and speak. You do this kind of thing. How do you and your wife find time together, like your program is like long form? Yes, sir, you've got a bunch of tv stuff you gotta do, I mean video things that sort of stuff. 01:00:14 - Speaker 2 How do you? 01:00:15 - Speaker 1 guys find time. What's your rhythm in that? 01:00:19 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so nine to 12, we do our daily show, maybe once a week or once a month that we might do with the basement. The basement is now reserved for conversations in person that I really want to have. Okay, just because somebody wants to be on doesn't mean I want to sit down with him. 01:00:40 - Speaker 1 So is that like when erwin was on? 01:00:42 - Speaker 2 yeah, yeah, exactly I want to sit down with her right, so we do the show because he knows cool words. 01:00:47 - Speaker 1 He knows very like all the quantum. 01:00:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah he's so articulate, he's so smart. Yeah, I'm like are you a mensa? Member, he's got to be brilliant, right, he's so articulated, he's so smart. Yeah, I'm like are you a mensa member? He's got to be brilliant, right, he's, he's, he's on that, that high end of intelligence so anyway 9 to 12. I do the show. After that, unless I have something like this to do, I'm playing my ps5 with my boys. Oh, that's great. Juliet and I are going to have our movie time in the evening. Oh, that's great my downtime is watching PTI on ESPN. 01:01:20 Yeah, and Steve Harvey Family Feud reruns. I'm trying to find a place I can buy all the seasons. Richard Dawson was the host. Because that's my favorite host of all time is Richard Dawson on Family Feud. Um, but yeah, I'm, we, I'm a homebody. My wife can make three phone calls and find me anywhere in the world. I'm, I'm never, uh. Instacart, uber, eats and. 01:01:49 - Speaker 1 Amazon was made. But you but you know stuff like like when you're doing, when you start talking and articulating. You must spend a lot of time in study and reading and learning. 01:02:01 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I've read the Bible more than I've read any other book in the past 29 and a half years. Wow. And so I literally have a biblical worldview, because I've read the Bible more than I've read any other book in the last 29 and a half years. 01:02:17 - Speaker 1 I wanted to run this by you. I think this is really amazing because it speaks of the generation that you're speaking to. So you know these, let's say, young men. Again, most of my audience is on brave men, is men. Yes, sir, and it's fascinating to look at, and this is in New York Times Magazine two weeks ago, and they're talking about how superheroes are back. They're talking about the most recent Superman. Yeah, and they were talking about that. What happened with DC Comics is Superman turned into a frigid, unapproachable character? Yes, sir, marvel uh moved away and they moved into quippy and gritty and dark and it and uh, and then Deadpool mutant, barren conscience, nihilistic, internet speak, and now they're saying this. They're saying, hey, they said you know years ago this. So I'm just talking about what God's doing on the face of the earth right now. Yes, sir, because if we're not careful, we have a tendency to trust the 24-7 to give us a worldview. 01:03:25 - Speaker 4 Right right. 01:03:25 - Speaker 2 This news stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like everything's going to hell. Yeah, and it's not. 01:03:33 - Speaker 1 You know, and to hell, yeah, and it's not, you know, and the church is bad. Yeah, yeah and uh. Frankly, I I have a real problem with the way we're characterizing the church and the way we're attacking people. We've got a lot of guys, a lot of people, men and women, on youtube doing, hey, I'm just trying to help the body of Christ heal, but what I'm really doing is talking smack about joni. Yeah, okay, right, so, uh, because I'm getting clicks, yeah, yeah, yeah oh, I'm getting clicks. 01:03:53 - Speaker 2 Well, they do that for to me as well. I I pay their rent yeah, you do my show, pays their rent. 01:03:59 - Speaker 1 So here's the deal. So this what they're saying is is that, uh, and this writer said it used to be that heroes stood for courage, righteousness and a kind of moral rectitude that didn't simply wilt because circumstances made it unfavorable. Yes, sir, and here's what they said. This is really fascinating because they're talking about the new Superman and what they were talking about, the contrast in this article. I thought, man, this guy nailed it. Even though it's in the New York Times, I still read this stuff, mike Mariani. Okay, and Mike said this there's a difference between idealizing your heroes and romanticizing the world they inhabit. Because what they were saying is, the world was idealized along with the hero Right, where it's really a nuanced world that has all these shadows and different things in it. So when we start talking about, we have a tendency to take Christianity and say, well, it looks like this Right and it's this box and it has to be inside of this Right exactly. And the Bible says the whole world cries out for a father. Absolutely. 01:05:11 And Tim, what I believe is the return of the hero. We're talking about the most recent Superman movie, which my son-in-law, niles, who you know, and his son, my grandson Cameron, have gone and seen, I think, three times now. Wow, well, the third time Cameron saw it was with his girlfriend. Okay, just kind of keep that on the QT. 01:05:31 - Speaker 2 Right right right let's go put that on a podcast, okay, because he's 15. Right, exactly. He has a friend that's a girl. He's a friend. 01:05:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, he has a friend that is a girl, but he did allow his mom to post a picture of them. Okay, at the LD Bell volleyball game. Okay, this girl from his armor outer. Okay, so that's. 01:05:49 - Speaker 2 I don't know. That's a friend, that's a girl. Yeah, that's what it is. So, anyway, the bottom line. 01:05:54 - Speaker 1 Is that what I sense? And I want you to speak into this, Tim. What I sense is that and there's a whole new genre, if you will, group of guys Huntington Beach this last Saturday and Huntington Beach, which is the area kind of. I grew up surfing really from Santa Cruz. We really got down to Huntington Beach very seldom, but basically that north part of the coast, yep, and there were, it seemed to me. It looked like about 150 people kneeling at Huntington Beach Pier. Wow, accepting Jesus Christ from all walks of life, and you know that area, you know what it's like. 01:06:32 - Speaker 4 Well, you know. 01:06:32 - Speaker 1 Venice. 01:06:33 - Speaker 2 I do, it's the same. It's the same energy. Hp's got the same vibe. Yeah, it's the same energy, absolutely correct. 01:06:38 - Speaker 1 And so there's people kneeling to an open-air preacher, and this guy must be in his early 20s. Wow, okay, yeah. And what I'm sensing is the whole world crying out for a father, because we've reached a place where our heroes what these guys are talking about, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, have no hope. It's like why is that my hero? Right, absolutely. So now we're saying, yeah, the world's messed up, but there are people who speak truth, absolutely correct, truth, absolutely correct, and my sense, yep, Tim is that is that God moving, he is on, that there's that we can't trust this 24 7 telling us, hey, everything's going bad, right, and the only thing we ever see is like israel's at war and ukraine's at war, right, even though there's 108 armed conflicts on the face of the earth right now. Wow, you, you know Somalia. Yemen? Yeah for sure, Absolutely. People dying in starvation. 01:07:34 - Speaker 2 Yeah absolutely In. 01:07:34 - Speaker 1 Eritrea. That's right, right. So now we got to look at all that sort of thing, but give me a feedback on this of what your sensing is, yep, of what God's doing right now among the next generation. 01:07:48 - Speaker 2 I'm so glad you brought this up. Uh, so my dad was a very avid collector of comic books so you bringing up this story? Yeah, dc is is very, very um personal for me, because I grew up reading the comic books with the um the classical hero, which all have their root in a creator right understanding the creator of the character, understanding the need for a savior yeah. Understanding the weaknesses of a group of people yeah a hero needing a hero right yeah, who gives their life for others. 01:08:24 - Speaker 1 We're talking about hello hello people. 01:08:28 - Speaker 2 Right, and superman has become the quintessential right hero of all heroes Because he comes from a different planet. So here's the deal we have a generation that has such a dearth of leaders that people have given up on getting to the promised land. Wow, Paul, to the point that is strong man, to the point that whoever they can find to take them across the street, they'll call them their mentor, they'll call them their savior, they'll call them their pastor, because if him the savior, they'll call him their pastor. Because if you've never even been across the street, to get to the other side is progress yeah we have the hope of the world. 01:09:26 We're not trying to get people across the street, we're not trying to get people to the park. We're trying to get people to heaven a real place, by the way, yeah, right, a, the realest country in the entire universe, right, and so people are hungry for the. I hear people say all the time the next generation doesn't want God. 01:09:48 - Speaker 1 Um, I've heard all the, the polls right, the, the, the, yeah, the nuns n-o-n-e yeah, when we talk about the nuns and all the kind of grown and there's more people saying I'm nothing. Yeah, what they're really saying is I don't trust those guys anymore. 01:10:02 - Speaker 2 Exactly the people that report to your database to let you know how many baptisms have happened. They don't want to come back to that denomination. Yeah, they're not done with God, they're done with your interpretation and version of him. Yeah, right, and so we got the. I got 18 year olds calling, calling our show yeah to strengthen their relationship with Jesus. 01:10:24 Like they're literally calling me after school and before class, like hey, I got another class, I another class, I got college kids 21 years old, like I'm calling you in between classes, I'm calling you on my lunch break, but I just need to know how do I deal with this? I'm going through a situation with a leader at the church and blah, blah, blah, and I'm like, hey, submission is not submission until it feels like submission and I get to give them the voice of a father. What God told me when I started um, uh, wide open, our daily show is you. I will give you the grace because I don't have all the answers. But the holy spirit does. I trust him. But proverbs the book of proverbs, by and large, is written by a king to a son, right, who's starting his life Spirit of a father. 01:11:12 And it's like a 25-year-old kid. Well, our main group is 25 to 34. 01:11:19 - Speaker 1 Yeah. 01:11:19 - Speaker 2 All I'm doing is trying to get. If you're calling about a job, if you're calling about money, if you're calling about drinking, if you're calling about dating, I'm just giving them everyday practical wisdom. 01:11:30 - Speaker 1 As a father. 01:11:30 - Speaker 2 As a dad. 01:11:32 - Speaker 1 As a dad. 01:11:35 - Speaker 2 I everyday practical wisdom as a father, as a dad, as a dad now, yeah, yeah half of these people. 01:11:38 - Speaker 1 They could literally be my children. So yeah, but you do it in a way they understand exactly it's like. I like the one where you said that you were talking about dating relationships, yeah, and you told the, the woman you said, hey, listen, close your yes. The only thing that should come out of there is praise. That's exactly right. 01:11:55 - Speaker 2 Exactly right, because you got kids having oral sex. Right, so they can keep their virginity. 01:12:00 - Speaker 1 Because they say it's not sex. 01:12:01 - Speaker 2 That's exactly right and it is. 01:12:03 - Speaker 1 Yeah, thank you, bill Clinton, right Right. 01:12:07 - Speaker 2 I did not have sex with that woman. 01:12:13 - Speaker 1 I did not have sexual relations with that woman. Here's why I I believe in spirit to spirit, because every woman who watched that guy yeah went. Ah, he's lying of course he's lying. Of course he's lying, every single. So. So, spirit to spirit, right is what we're seeking. That's right, because we're like I've got information right, I've got data. 01:12:30 Yeah, I've got ai, how do I live this out? But how do I actually yes, how do I walk down the street. That's exactly right. How do I go out here and actually wake up tomorrow with some hope in my life? 01:12:41 - Speaker 2 proverb seven says I saw a young man void of understanding going down the street of an immoral woman. Now, wisdom is also personified as a woman, but she's at the city gate wow. So we're not saying stay away from women we're saying stay away from the wrong woman. Wisdom is at the gate. The hoe is on the corner. Stay away from her right. 01:13:09 - Speaker 1 Her bed leads to death you know james, the brother of Jesus, a half-brother he said the reason that you do wrong is because you don't do right. 01:13:21 He basically said the reason, because you know there's something in you, there's something in every gangbanger, there's something in every guy, absolutely, and you can talk to men and as we talk about it, I'll talk about it. I've got this little thing that I like doing, Tim, and it's how many of you would like to be a good friend of King David? And everybody go, yeah, they go, hang on, hang on, I haven't finished. How many of you would like to be a good friend of King David and have a really hot looking wife? And I'll ask one guy and everybody go, help the guy out. And he'll go yeah, yeah, yeah, because he killed his best friend. So now, well, I had one guy. This was great. One guy responded. He said, uh, well, how long would I be married to her before David sees her? Like, I go, bro, I'm not telling your wife that, yeah, yeah, that's crazy, that's hilarious. 01:14:18 But the fact is, the point is this is that, with David's life, what changed his life was repentance. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What changed his life was repentance. And before you became a follower of Christ, temptation. I mean, we didn't call it temptation. No, you didn't deal with temptation, it was called opportunity. That's exactly right. Had it, Then you become a follower of Christ, it becomes temptation, that's right. So now what we have to do as fathers is speak into the life and say, hey, you're going to have to make a right choice, yes, exactly right. And as you drive down the road, it's, it's the truth. I love that whole picture of right turn is mama's room that's right left turn. 01:15:03 Exactly right, I'm gonna put it off that's exactly right and and when I asked, man, I said how many of you should have made a left turn? Dude, that's my phone. Can you believe that? 01:15:14 - Speaker 2 okay, on my podcast it's hilarious quiet on your set, yeah quiet. 01:15:20 - Speaker 1 Everybody turn their phones off. Thank you, brandon. That's my bad, so, uh, but how many of you all asked, men, how many of you should have made a right turn but but you made a left turn? So many men, yeah, of course. How many of you knew you should have gotten out of the car before you got to the place? You guys were all going Been there, been there. 01:15:42 Absolutely, yeah, okay, so we know there's something in us. I don't care if you're a biker or you're a C-suite guy and you're jobbing some people, because you're driving the stock up, because you've got a secret stash. Absolutely, yes, absolutely. That's going to come due, yeah, yeah for sure, by next February. It's going to vest on February 15th and boom, that stock hits February 15th and all of a sudden, you've got your $20 million and now, two months later, everybody's left holding the bag, right, cracker barrel, right, right, right, you know. So what happens is Right, right. What happens is both. Those guys know that's right, you know that's right. But what drives you is, but I want for me, that's exactly right. So what's the core of sin? Yeah, I Me Pride, absolutely. 01:16:32 - Speaker 2 Me. You look good to me, I'm my own God. 01:16:33 - Speaker 1 Look good to me. Yeah, felt good Look good. Yeah, it looks good. 01:16:37 - Speaker 2 That's right. I think it's going to taste good, yeah, and it's going to make me as wise as him. As wise as him. 01:16:48 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I could talk as long as your program Tim with you Brave. Men's not always that long, but it's awesome stuff. I mean, I so appreciate what you're doing and the sacrifice, and this is, was it, I'm thinking, indiana Jones? Was it the third one, where he stepped off into nothing, oh yes, and landed on? 01:17:11 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you had to yes. That's right Step out on faith. I think it was the third one where he stepped off into nothing, oh yes, and landed on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you had to yes, that's right Step out on faith. I think it was the third one. 01:17:17 - Speaker 3 That's right, absolutely, and he had to step off. I'll never, forget that. 01:17:19 - Speaker 2 I'll never forget that, and that's what you and. 01:17:21 - Speaker 1 Juliet did, we did. I mean it's happen, or whatever the deal is, but you don't know where those people are going to be three months from now. No, not at all, and I so appreciate you stepping off and speaking into the culture of people around the world. And now, when we talk about around the world, now, you're becoming fluent in Spanish. 01:17:48 I am sí, and God's going to use you with a number of great friends to speak into the life. Well, basically, we have to learn Spanish, because my understanding is that's what they speak in heaven, si. Okay. 01:18:01 - Speaker 2 De acuerdo, de acuerdo. De acuerdo Si si si. 01:18:04 - Speaker 1 So I thank God for you, for speaking in our culture. We live in a culture that seems to be more concerned about the calorie content of our children's lunches than the character content of our children's hearts. Yeah, wow, right Statement yeah, so now that's why God's raising up men like you and you and your wife have, you know, because people look at it and go, oh well, he's doing this and this all happens. And it doesn't just happen, not at all. It happens because you put your house at risk, that's right. You put your car payment at risk, literally. You put your children's education at risk, literally, you know. I mean you put at risk, yes, sir, everything. Yes, sir, in order for the prize, absolutely, it's the man who saw something in the middle of a field. 01:18:49 - Speaker 2 That's exactly right. That's exactly right. 01:18:50 - Speaker 1 That's exactly right and went and sold everything. 01:18:51 - Speaker 2 That's exactly right, Paul To come back to the field. Yes sir. 01:18:54 - Speaker 1 To get that Absolutely, and I just want to tell you, Tim, we'll be praying for you, man. 01:18:57 - Speaker 2 Thank you, it means a lot. I appreciate you. 01:19:00 - Speaker 1 You know again for Brave Men and for Christian Men's Network. You know my dad. Years ago Coach McCartney was a great friend, yes sir, and he started a movement called Promise Keepers. Yes, sir, and back in the day a friend of mine who's still a friend, randy Phillips, ran it. And so when they would do their conferences called Promise Keepers conferences, they would hand my dad here's the outline and they would hand him a title okay, and he would take that and they knew it every time this was going to happen. 01:19:40 He would look at it because they had kind of and I understood it. Coach McCartney's a strategist. He was an amazing friend. He prayed for me every day of his life from 19,. We first met in 1986 in Phoenix at an athlete's conference. He put his hand on my back and he said Paul, I'm going to pray for you every day. Wow. And every time I saw him he says you know, I'm praying for you. Wow, I mean, imagine that. I mean this guy who did all these amazing things, yeah, and so he was a man of strategy and playbooks and all that. So they had a playbook and it would say at the top here's the title, dr Cole. And every time he'd look at it I'd have him say okay, here's the title. And he'd clump it up and go. He'd say the title and he'd go okay, but here's what we're going to talk about. 01:20:23 - Speaker 4 That's great, that's great. 01:20:25 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:20:26 - Speaker 1 And the fact is, God used you in that way to speak life into a culture that needs fathers who speak hope, amen. And needs fathers who come at them with discipline that comes out of love. Amen, absolutely. Because most discipline they've known. Yes, when you say, hey, divorce is wrong, here's why Yep, you know it's a discipline, yes, sir. But most discipline has either been from condemnation Yep, right, yep or embarrassment of a parent picking their kid up in the aisle of Walmart, going hey, bam, yeah. And why? Because the parent was embarrassed, right. Or the parent's angry, right. But discipline out of love. 01:21:08 Is Jesus catching that woman, that's right. Caught in adultery? That's exactly right. Out of love is Jesus catching that woman caught in adultery and for the first time in her life, she sees the eyes of a man looking at her out of love, looking at her saying you have something in you, you have greatness in you, you have Ephesians 2.10 in you. You were made for good works, you can be something. So, Tim, we just want to say you know, God bless you in everything you're doing, thank you. To speak life into a culture that doesn't know life, amen. To be a river flowing of living water, yes, sir. To do a dry and parched land, ezekiel 37. Amen. Dry and parched, yes, sir. And the Bible says the prophet, God shows the prophet a vision. Yes sir, here's this dry land. God says can it live? And the prophet says Ezekiel says well, only you know. And then God says to the prophet then you speak. And then it says. 01:22:05 Ezekiel says and I spoke that's right as I was coming. I believe that's how God's lifted you up prophetically in this day and age, to speak, life into what looks dead and dry and put you in front of places. That's not easy, yes, sir, because a lot of people did try to cancel you. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, quit the ministry. He's trying to be famous. Yeah, all this stuff, man, yeah. Ministries trying to be famous. Yeah, yeah, all this stuff, man, yeah. And I'm sure you get all these wonderful emails all the time you know about. Hey, appreciate your ministry. You're going to hell, yep. 01:22:40 - Speaker 2 Yeah, well, my team gets it. I have removed myself from no, you don't need to see that. 01:22:45 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, but the fact is is that I love what you're doing, Tim. 01:22:49 - Speaker 2 Thank you, thank God, I appreciate the affirmation. 01:22:51 - Speaker 1 You know for you, like we talked about before we got on, we've got a lot of mutual friends, yeah, and so this conversation has felt like a conversation with a friend that I just hadn't met yet. Yeah, me too. That's how. 01:23:04 - Speaker 2 I feel you know what I mean. Absolutely, I feel the exact same. 01:23:07 - Speaker 1 Like you're praying for people. Like you're praying for people like like as like you're praying for this missionary right and for 10 years and intercessory prayer, and then you meet him and you go dude right you know exactly whoa I've heard, I've read all your stories, I've seen all your photos. Exactly it's like this intimacy. So God bless you and what you do. 01:23:23 - Speaker 4 Thank you for being on Brave Men today thank you, appreciate you, bless you all right brave men is a production of Christian Men's Network, a global movement of men committed to passionately following Jesus on the ground in over 100 nations worldwide. You can receive the Brave Men motivational email, find books and resources for discipleship and parenting at cmn.men. That's cmn.men. Your host has been Paul Louis Cole, president of Christian Men's Network, and if you haven't yet, please make sure you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast wherever your fine podcasts are downloaded. Thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you next time on Brave Men.