Simon McIntyre; Philosopher from the Wilderness

00:12 - Speaker 1
Hi, this is Paul Louis Cole. You're listening to the Brave Men Podcast. Fired up today to have my friend, great friend, the man who actually showed me that I was a religious person, that I had religious stuff on me and Simon was speaking. In fact, judy and I were just talking about this the other day with some friends and we were talking about the C3 movement, christian City Church, which my friend, simon, pastor, phil Pringle, my pastor and Mark Kelsey and a cast of remarkable people including their wives, started years ago, sydney, australia, and now almost a thousand churches around the world, c3 churches, of which my son, brandon pastors one in Fort Worth, C3 Fort Worth Awesome church. Now, here's the deal. So okay, and I'll get back to something that Simon said in his blog that I think is fantastic and it's the reason I love this man. He's been the head of Europe C3 churches, been head of the C3 Americas. He's moving into a place of being a statesman and a philosopher, theologian and writer of books and materials. He is a remarkable man and he's a pilot. I don't even know if we talked about this in the conversation, but he's a pilot and anyway, I mean, he's just one of those. Was it Renaissance guys, one of those Renaissance guys, you know, that does stuff, cool stuff. So Judy and I are in this meeting and we're in Atlanta, georgia, and we're at Dean and Jill Sweetman at the time at their church, c3. And Jeff and Sonny Kane are pastoring that now and heading up C3 America. It's doing a fantastic job building a new building.

02:03
Okay, so we're there and Simon pulls out you'd have to be there, I think I can share this and you'll get it Pulled out a little plastic statue of Jesus. And he said I just want to make sure I have Jesus with me as I'm sharing these thoughts tonight. And Judy and I are like like I mean, we're contemporary people, but we looked at that and we went oh, I can, can you do that? So and he did another couple of machinations with it and at one point, as he's speaking, the little statuette plastic thing fell off the platform and it was like, okay, what just happened here? And so Judy and I later, as we're talking about it and talking about it with a couple other people, we're like you know what? He just shook up some religious attitudes off of us by being normative in his talking about his faith in Christ, and this is a man who's walked in the deep parts of the charismatic renewal and seen so many people healed and so many great things happened, and yet walked through the deep waters of his own wife, helen, passing away. Walked through the deep waters of his own wife, helen passing away, and now happily married to Valerie. Who's this incredible woman? Who has this advertising thing, marketing stuff I'm probably butchering that, but hey, she's amazing. And so Simon kind of shook that stuff on me and Judy and, if you will, that's some of his gift, you'll catch that in this conversation so thrilled to call him a friend and to have him on the Brave Men podcast today, which is sponsored by the Christian Men's Network.

03:54
Tools, resources, materials to disciple your family, to disciple men, to be part of the Christian men's movement that's happening around the world. Go to christianmensnetworkcom or cmnmen that's the short one we have now christianmensnetwork, cmnmen to get all of that Fired up. Also on there you'll find our new book called Identity. It has 40 days of affirmations in it, so it's a five-chapter book about your identity in Christ and then 40 days of affirmations on that.

04:34
Okay, so here's before we get into this conversation with Simon, here's something he wrote on his blog, because he just has this unique way of looking at life. It just very, very um, from a little sidebar it comes out at like an angle, you know, and it just it just opens some things up for us, those of us who who need somebody to do that and poke us like that. He writes in a blog here. He says Some people claim divine inspiration for almost everything because it gives them a sense of validity or importance. The Lord told me too, is there a way of expressing a personalized spirituality? Because God and them are tight. And so you got to read this. It's on his website, the Simon McIntyre M-C-I-N-T-Y-R-E, and I'm going to talk a lot about his book on Joshua, which is a fantastic book that we talk about in this conversation. But then he hits this thing of. It's the fourth paragraph on his blog.

05:47
Did God Say One of the reasons for the trend, god said to me, in Western Christendom is the toxic victory of individualism, something barely known prior to the Enlightenment. We are prone to promote the cult of personalized religion, one where I and my are supreme, unlike the culture of God's kingdom, where we matters more than me. Anyway, I could read the whole thing, but I won't because we got to get right to this conversation. Simon McIntyre what a great gift to the body of Christ. And let me look at we'll get the title here of the first book he wrote Follow the Leader Great book, simon Says, which is a series of his devotionals. And then the new release is great. We're going to talk about that, about Joshua Lessons in the Wilderness. It is a great book. You can get it on Amazon or you can go to his website. Hey, thanks for being with me today on Brave Men and with my friend. You're going to really enjoy this man. You're going to want to read more of his things, listen to him more, go to some of his videos, that kind of thing.

07:04
One of the directors for many years and founders of the C3 Church Movement around the world. My friend, brilliant man. Here's Simon McIntyre. Simon, you've been in ministry for how many years? I mean, how long ago did you help start the church?

07:24 - Speaker 2
So the church started in 1980. I was on staff by 82. Okay.

07:31 - Speaker 1
So that's a long time.

07:32 - Speaker 2
That's 40 years, is it?

07:35 - Speaker 1
Yeah, 42 years, wow, okay. Is there a point at which you feel like, okay, I've done these things, now I can do, I don't have to be on the door? I mean, is there a point where you feel like, okay, I serve, but I already did that part?

07:48 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't think serving is never redundant, right, it's just the expression of it. So I don't think me going on a door would be a great idea. People wouldn't know what to do with me. Plus, I'm probably not the right person. I'm too melancholic. Oh okay, you want a Valerie on the door that actually appears to like people. Yes, whereas I get people sometimes saying does he even like me? Does he even like me?

08:11 - Speaker 1
So I'm good with that. So how long have you and Valerie been married? 13 years, 13 years. And then when you started the church with Phil Pringle in Sydney area, northern Beaches, what was it? Dy? Is that the first place? Surfers like a little surf thing there's a surf life-saving club.

08:31 - Speaker 2
Yeah, typical Australian, you know red and yellow outfits. And we actually rented a hall that was like the surf life-saving kind of community hall. Yeah, and the funniest thing is in the building. The guy who was the caretaker of the building lived upstairs in the building and he eventually withdrew our lease because he wanted to listen to his movie on Sunday nights and we made too much noise. Oh, really, we were noisy. Pentecostals.

08:58 - Speaker 1
You were noisy, pentecostals. I'm going to get into that a little later.

09:09 - Speaker 2
So you helped plant that church and how did you meet Phil Pringle? Phil actually was my youth leader Really so in Christchurch, new Zealand. He had had a remarkable conversion, both him and Chris, and then about two years later he came to a church that I had just gone to through my parents, and so Phil very quickly became I wouldn't say he was a friend at that stage, that would be assuming too much but he became my youth leader, and I like to remind people nothing's changed Now you're youthful.

09:36 - Speaker 1
He's still my youth leader.

09:38 - Speaker 2
So we were part of that church that he was the youth director.

09:42 - Speaker 3
Yeah.

09:43 - Speaker 1
Isn't that something? And he was impressive then yeah, because I've seen some of those photos. So you grew up and went to school in Christchurch.

09:49 - Speaker 2
I grew up at a school called Burnside High School In.

09:54 - Speaker 1
Christchurch, which is South Island, which is basically far south Middle of the island.

10:00 - Speaker 2
Okay, but they've got the mountains there. Yeah, the Southern Alps run right down the spine of the christ church alps, uh, no, just the southern alps is the southern alps, yeah and they're significant mountains.

10:10 - Speaker 1
Yeah, well, that's where the us ski team would actually go train in this in our summer excuse me, in our summer, they would go train in the christ church in those mountains. They go to queenstown yeah, is that where it is? Queenstown Chrysler, all that? Yeah, so you grew up in the southern island. So, kiwi, you grew up Kiwi, okay.

10:30 - Speaker 2
That's fascinating. There's a whole bunch of us, yes, there is.

10:33 - Speaker 1
We were eventually exiled. Yes, they couldn't stand us any longer.

10:36 - Speaker 2
Sent to the penal colony of Australia. We were sent as, yes, we were sent to Sydney.

10:46 - Speaker 1
Now, Phil and Chris went a couple times to plant. Right, they did. Did you go the first time? No, okay, you were younger.

10:54 - Speaker 2
We actually rented their house when they went, really so they went, they were going to go for life.

11:07 - Speaker 3
The call of God was very real about Sydney to Phil andil and chris the timing was the was the issue they struggled with, right, but you don't know until you go.

11:10 - Speaker 2
Yeah, so they went, and then after five months and we were just settling into renting their house off them and looking after it they came back really and broke the lease, never forgave.

11:23 - Speaker 1
I'd had his garden all nice and clean.

11:26 - Speaker 2
And now he says oh thanks, simon, I'm coming back.

11:28 - Speaker 1
In fact, right now today on this podcast, we could probably draw up a little contract where he could pay you back.

11:34 - Speaker 2
He owes you on that. No, my lawyer's speaking to this Lawyers are still your solicitors are still working on that my lawyer's talking about this, yeah, yeah.

11:41 - Speaker 1
So he's been able to push this off, kind of like President Trump pushes things off like that. It's the same matter, oh no, not with the same bile. So now the second time. So then Phil and Chris and you and your wife Helen moved to Australia. Did anybody else go? Was?

12:03 - Speaker 2
it just the two couples. No, there was a girl. By that stage, phil had also planted a church just outside of Christchurch and there was a girl called Alison Easterbrook. She's a delightful young lady and she was a really good worship leader. She's one of those given-to-God worship leaders and she was a piano player. So the five of us left.

12:23 - Speaker 1
Okay, and you guys moved to Sydney and was it. Did you know where to plant? Was there already kind of a plan? Northern beaches, no, DY Just the place became available.

12:34 - Speaker 2
Yeah, it's like you know it's this weird thing is Phil had gone to a church, one of them called the North Shore of Sydney, which is not the northern beaches.

12:42 - Speaker 3
It's further inland.

12:43 - Speaker 2
And when he came back, when he felt that they were really outside the will of God, he was most troubled about it. So they returned back to Christchurch. But when we went there it was like I don't know the best way of describing it. To me was like a calculated guess. It just seemed like we liked the area. Something about it attracted us, particularly Phil, and so we went there.

13:08 - Speaker 1
Is there as we're following, and I love that, the whole alliteration of actually I love the way the shack did it where the Holy Spirit was like a female. Well, no, that was God, it was something that was like a butterfly or something. I can't remember what he did on that, but the fact is that many of us likened following the Holy Spirit to, I think Mark Batterson called the wild goose. Yes, I remember that book and so is there some of that in following God as a follower of Christ, where it's not all predetermined, it's not just one rail of a plan.

13:50 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I believe that personally, I don't think the Apostle Paul had sort of a predetermined plan about every journey he went on. He just went and followed his no's and, as we know, he got to some places and the Spirit said no. But not until he got there did the Spirit say no, he wasn't in Jerusalem. The Spirit said don't go there, he just discovered on the journey. So he went Okay, this is Abrahamic, yep, not knowing where he's going. Yeah, and I think that was the same with us. We didn't really know what we were doing, but we had this internal conviction that we're on the right track.

14:25 - Speaker 1
Okay, you had. Okay, somebody described it the other day to me. They said he knew he had the will of God, because it was a voice a little bit louder than his self-talk, you know. And then it just felt right Peace, if you will, peace being the umpire for doing the will of God.

14:41 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I don't think it always is personally. Sometimes the will of God is done. I don't think it always is personally. Sometimes the will of God is done in very dispeaceful moments.

14:48 - Speaker 1
But essentially, but a peace in your heart. That's what.

14:51 - Speaker 2
I mean, there's a settled conviction.

14:53 - Speaker 1
Yes, that's fascinating because for some of us okay, let's say that we were led to a certain area to plant a church and we really liked this area. Well, I was taught as a kid if you're following the will of God, it really can't be something you actually like. Yes, it has to be something. Oh God. I remember these little campfire moments where you would stand around as kids and throw a pine cone in a fire and you would say I will follow the will of God, no matter how bad it is.

15:27 - Speaker 2
Yeah, look, I mean that to me is like an overdose of sincerity, but I think it's a good attitude. Yes, look, I think some people go to areas because they're easy. They know they can poach other believers and I have questions about that. But I think unless you like where you're at, you won't like the people. Okay.

15:50 - Speaker 1
That's huge right there, because really, at the end of the day, it's not about the location, it's the vocation, which is you're called to love people. That's right. I loved Australians.

15:59 - Speaker 2
I realized after years I just loved Australians. I've changed, not that I don. I realised after years I just loved Australians. I've changed not that I don't love them because I've travelled and lived in so many different places.

16:10 - Speaker 1
Yeah.

16:12 - Speaker 2
And I think that when it's an interesting, the converse of it is interesting. So we knew a couple who were in a city and they did not like the people. They did not like the people of that city and that eventually meant that we had to ask them to come back home. In other words, they went to plant a church and they eventually did not like the people. That's a simple way of looking at it, but that was the underscore.

16:39 - Speaker 1
But I think the complex things are solved in simple obedience. So there is that side of the coin which is very simply if you don't like the people, this is not going to work.

16:50 - Speaker 2
No, because they know you don't like them. Yeah, so your gospel ministry ends up becoming like something that, oh, I do this because of Jesus rather than I do this because I have a love for these people.

17:03 - Speaker 1
Yeah. So you moved to Australia, Loved the people, Started searching DY. Okay, one of my favorite stories actually is Brian Houston, who we know has built a great church here, but his father was a minister and I love the story of you and Phil going along to his place and there was a service that you were going to be at. He's speaking and, if I remember the story correctly, it was basically sort of like he was one of the church leaders in that city at the time and you went along and you're the young church planters and you're looking for this affirmation, this moment of and, if I remember this correctly, he waited until the very end. You're waiting for him to say something hey, here they are. You know, pray over you and whatever. And my understanding is Frank basically said here they are. Well, boys, give it a go.

18:03 - Speaker 2
Look, I actually don't remember that, but that sounds like Frank. But that would have been Frank's affection. Yeah, true, because the fact that he stood you up meant that he believed in you Meant something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what I do remember him saying is that he was referring to Phil. I was total unknown because he knew of Phil from.

18:20 - Speaker 3
New.

18:21 - Speaker 2
Zealand. And he said if you live on the northern beaches, I would encourage you to consider going to that church. He's very kind. Oh, that is kind Because he lived on the other side of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, right, and there are people who've never gone north over the bridge in all their life, so it's a very real divide.

18:40 - Speaker 1
But I just love that one little phrase. And yeah, he probably was gracious in that sense, because that's the legacy of grace. He was cynically funny. Yeah, okay, which was somebody you would embrace? Yeah, it's easy for me to be honest, easy for you to love. You lived in England for 10 years. We did. You must have enjoyed that in some way. I loved England.

19:00 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I do the English are interesting. They are. I loved England. Yeah, I do the English are interesting. They very slow to make good connections and friends, but I loved living in England and we loved Europe. Yeah, well, I mean, I never planned any of this. None of this is an. I didn't have a 10-year plan. We just ended up there and we ended up. Our movement grew wonderfully, grew from 13 to nearly 40 churches. We had wonderful connections with our pastors.

19:27 - Speaker 1
Well, let's background that for just a bit for somebody who doesn't know C3 Church, which started as Christian City Church, right so? And then the abbreviation is C3, christian City Church, and called to the cities, the greater cities of the world, if you will. That's kind of been the thing. That's what I've always thought about and that's where my license is as a minister. Maybe I haven't re-upped it lately. I need to think about that for a second. And then my son, brandon, pastors C3, fort Worth, which is a fantastic church, and for the last couple of years you've been the overseer for North America for those group of churches, but that. So out of that church plant in DY, a group of churches begin to grow. And how many churches now worldwide.

20:18 - Speaker 2
This is terrible because I'm in the final stages of my but with C3 as an exec member, I think it's between 550 and 600. So it just blew up all over the world. It did, it did and it wasn't planned. When I meet young pastors who say I want to start a movement, I'm thinking like you're nuts. Yeah, you've got no idea. That's not a goal.

20:43
No To plant churches is a great goal, but to be the head of a movement to me is incredibly self-serving. To want to be that was never our goal. We sat down I remember sitting down in this room we rented this industrial complex area, just a particular unit of it, and that's where our church really started booming of it and we had. That's where our church really started booming and that was. It was in uh dy. It was the back of an industrial estate. It was not on any good transport routes, which blows all the theories about right accessibility.

21:13 - Speaker 1
Where you have to be in people go. If god's doing something there, you go and so we were there.

21:19 - Speaker 2
I remember sitting in this room and the thought Decapolis, Decapolis, which was the 10 cities, I think, in the Galilee area.

21:27
And so we thought 10 cities, that was our goal. Really 10 cities. So, to start with, a couple of guys from in the Sydney region started to connect with us and then we started to see God did something significant and unforeseen where all these people joined us over the next 10, 15 years, who many went out to become church planters. Really, it wasn't planned. Phil's a good leader and a good preacher, yeah, but this was not something in his brain, yeah, it just started to explode.

21:57 - Speaker 1
It's just a God thing. And then you went with where God was going and we thought a church of five.

22:00 - Speaker 2
He thought a church of 500 would be. Like I can die and that's it in peace.

22:05 - Speaker 1
We're good because in sydney in those days, except for um brian's father, there were no large churches yeah, the larger ones would have been adelaide and brisbane maybe they were at the time, maybe lc and 800 1200 evans's down in adelaide.

22:20 - Speaker 2
Well, they're now bigger than that, but on those days, yeah, but in those a significant church was in adelaide under Well, they're now bigger than that but in those days a significant church was in Adelaide under a man called Leo Harris, but when you look back at the records it was about 600 people, yeah, but that was significant, yeah. So Phil thought that would be awesome, so it just started to develop. What we ended up doing, Paul, is we ended up giving pathways and structures to something that God was doing.

22:42
Right we didn't start with a path and a structure and ask God to bless that? No no, we ended up putting riverbanks on an already flowing river.

22:50 - Speaker 1
Come on, man. That's huge because, particularly in our Western mindset, and particularly US, where I live, we'll come up with these huge ideas and projects. And then God, can you bless this? Can you fill this river? We've built the banks. He goes yeah, the river's going that way.

23:10 - Speaker 2
Yeah, well, that's troubling in one sense, isn't it? Yeah, but it's happened.

23:15 - Speaker 1
It's happened a lot In this country. Yeah, oh, my goodness, because I can think of one man who, in the COVID era, got huge online, huge in, like he had this plan uh, we're going to take every in this particular city. We're going to take every single uh, theater, theatrical complex. Put a church in each one. It's going to be fantastic, we can rent it out because they're still open, okay, and uh, so he started doing that and, if you will, I believe the Holy Spirit blew on it, but he had basically built this thing that was outside his ability to deal with it in his character, and you know, it's the thing we know, that your talent can take you beyond your character. And so what happened is the whole thing blew up because his life blew up yeah, well, the answer to that is not to have too much talent so I think

24:11
if we go around promoting, we are now going to do a bible school for the talentless and it's filled with people.

24:18 - Speaker 2
It's filled with people. The difficult thing about doing the school for talentless and it's filled with people.

24:21 - Speaker 1
It's filled with people. It's filled with talentless people. Yeah, and the difficult thing about doing the school for talentless people, it's like doing a conference for serving. We're going to do a serving conference. It's not about leadership, but serving. You get three people to show up Leadership boom, I'm in. Or prophetic.

24:37 - Speaker 2
Oh, prophetic. Yeah, we're all out there wearing our Prophecy t-shirts bright colors.

24:41 - Speaker 3
Andy Warrell's.

24:42 - Speaker 2
Campbell's soup can. So I'm noticed. No, I don't believe that totally.

24:47 - Speaker 3
I've often thought that we are funny, aren't we?

24:49 - Speaker 1
A conference on being the second man.

24:51 - Speaker 2
Let's have a conference.

24:53 - Speaker 1
Yeah, but we're funny on that stuff, man, and it does tip us over. And you and I were talking just before we started our conversation on video. The city of Babel built a tower. Why'd they build a tower? It says to make a name for ourselves. You know, I mean among a small group of people. In one sense, I mean right, because they were not. We were not scattered until after that they all spoke the same language and they built. This is a fascinating thing, and I think Dennis Prager talked about it. He said they built a tower to make a name for themselves and when God looked at it, god was so large he had to come down. So God came down. So they were never able to be what they thought they could be. But we have this propensity in us for that, don't we? And how?

25:40 - Speaker 2
absurd to build a tower like poking your finger at the universe. Yeah, really.

25:46 - Speaker 1
You know, well, maybe that starts that whole thing, and how do you deal with that thing in us? We do want to be liked, right? We want to be part of a group.

25:54 - Speaker 2
Oh, I don't know anybody who's sane.

25:56 - Speaker 1
that doesn't want to be liked Right oh, I don't know anybody who's saying that doesn't want to be liked, right, yeah? So how do we keep that from bleeding into, uh, speaking a message in which we're we're prophetic or whatever it may be, but we dial it back because I don't want to offend anybody? How do we walk that line?

26:12 - Speaker 2
yeah, well, I mean, the only way I know is I think our boldness should be about what Scripture says. I think we're bold about Scripture, then I think we're on a safe path. But if we become bold about plans and processes and principles and about what we're going to do, I think that tends to be a less safe pass. Look, there's the mystery in the heart of man of who can know except God why one person turns out straight and another person turns out corrupted. After all these years, I don't have the answer.

26:44 - Speaker 1
It's fascinating, isn't it? There's a conundrum in that.

26:47 - Speaker 2
Yeah, there's a brokenness in humanity that's way more dangerous than we think.

26:54 - Speaker 1
It is we do. And again I come back to that whole thing. My professor I would say also a mentor, lynn Sweet, he said in the book the Well-Played Life. He said God doesn't love you and have a wonderful plan for your life. He has a plan for mankind and a purpose for your life within his plan. And I love that feeling because it is now. You can now then go to DY. We think it's up there, we're coloring and we're going outside the lines. Because you know why? Because there's no lines, right? Yeah, so there's. So the the lines are righteousness, right gifts of the holy spirit, the fruit of the spirit coming out of our lives. So so you moved to Australia. You guys built a great church. Churches come out of that, 10 cities. You're with your wife, helen, and Helen becomes ill somewhere in that journey.

27:48 - Speaker 2
25 years in, yes, so we went there in 2000 and no sorry, 1980. 1980, yeah 1980. So I've spent most of my adult life in Australia. So I think of myself as Australian yeah 80. So I've spent most of my adult life in Australia, so I think of myself as Australian, yeah.

28:02
And then in 2005, out of the blue because she'd always been well, she'd always been a healthy, spirited person she was diagnosed with third stage ovarian cancer, which, in large, is the same way of saying goodbye. So on my son's side of the family there are a number of doctors and they were surprised. She even made it to Christmas and the diagnosis was in August, september, september, and so she lived for five years with that. She had over 100 chemotherapy infusions and in the end you just can't do that. Chemotherapy infusions and in the end you just can't do that. I am not an opponent of chemotherapy if it works quickly, but where it drags on and on and on, you're only prolonging life, you're never going to save it. So after five years she went to the doctor. We went to the doctor one day and she said I can't keep doing this. And he said I understand, I think you're right. He said let's get back together in another three or four months and let's re-look at your future. He knew what was happening, yeah, but he was kind, yeah.

29:07 - Speaker 1
I always appreciated that about the doctor. That is kind.

29:10 - Speaker 2
I knew what I knew and Helen knew, but he just gave you that sense of we're not sure yet, which stops you worrying so much about tomorrow. Takes away the anxiety, if you will. So she passed away five years to the day of her diagnosis. Wow, she was only 53. 53. Which is stupidly young.

29:29 - Speaker 1
Yeah, and she was a young, vital person.

29:33 - Speaker 2
So the children were without their mother and I was suddenly a widow.

29:38 - Speaker 1
Yeah, suddenly single in that sense. So how do you? You know, I've got these quotes, grief observed. You know CS Lewis and he talked about, in fact I wrote one down. He says we were promised sufferings are part of the program, part of life. Lesser are they that mourn. He said I've got that. He said of course it's different when it happens to oneself.

30:02 - Speaker 2
Oh yes, We've got great philosophies, not for others, for others, of course, in reality, not imagination.

30:07 - Speaker 3
I've got all the answers for you.

30:09 - Speaker 1
Yeah, here's how you should walk through it.

30:12 - Speaker 2
I'll tell you one of the things that Christians do in that light that I find funny. If something bad happens to me, it's the devil, but if it happens to you, it's God. It's a test. I love that it's so inconsistent it really is Because what that says to me is we can't cope with anomalies.

30:32 - Speaker 1
We can't cope with, if you will, the randomness of humanity. And there is a randomness. I actually have a book coming out about the life of Gideon in which the second chapter is about randomness and that there are things. And how do you cope with that? How do you cope with mysteries? How did you? You know you and Helen, because I remember praying with you guys. I remember praying over her with a group of people and I remember the peace that was on your wife and I remember those moments of prayer and prophetic word if you will, this is we're going to. How do you deal with, how do you walk through that kind of grief as a follower of Christ and a person that is looked to as a model for a follower of Christ, because that's what your leader of church is she was. How do you walk through that when it doesn't happen the way you think it should?

31:32 - Speaker 2
Well, I think first of all, you have to realize that life is unfair. If you don't reconcile that life is unfair, you're going to be in a constant anger or frustration with yourself and with God. To realise that life is unfair If you don't reconcile that life is unfair, you're going to be in a constant anger or frustration with yourself and with God. We live in a broken world. Our resurrection, the completion of our salvation is yet to be and that's in the resurrection. So I understand those things intellectually and theologically.

31:56
But the weird thing is that people that I still, to this day, love and respect told me Helen's going to live. God's spoken to me, but I just say that this is my thinking. We all want her desperately to live and that's going to get confused in your brain between what you want God to do and what's actually going to happen. I'm of the conviction a lot of what we think is God speaking to us is experience. Some of it's good, some of it's wise, it's scripture. But to say that God told people that Helen would live, so clearly they're wrong, clearly, yeah.

32:32 - Speaker 1
But I never held that against them. No, but I mean, don't we say things to people like that.

32:37 - Speaker 2
It's called pious attitudes.

32:39 - Speaker 1
to me A wonderful friend, andrew, that just passed away of ALS. Actually, in this taping it happened yesterday morning at 7.01 am and you know there were times in his journey going through this that you just go. Okay, dude, this is going to happen. I'm with you Totally, you know, because you want to be that person of affirmation and encouragement. We're hope givers, we're hope givers.

33:05 - Speaker 2
It's sort of like it's almost an epidemic in Christianity. Hope giving it's wonderful, and I don't despise any of those people that said that.

33:16 - Speaker 1
No, I agree. What's the difference between hope-giving and fantasy?

33:22 - Speaker 2
When I figure that out, I'll come and let you know.

33:25 - Speaker 1
Oh, come on, I was going to write this stuff down.

33:27 - Speaker 2
I'll probably become the wealthiest man on the universe.

33:30 - Speaker 1
I was going to write this down. I was going to have like this would be in, because I was going to put it in a book as a friend of mine once told me no, no, you can't do that.

33:38 - Speaker 3
I want the royalties of that book.

33:41 - Speaker 2
I don't think I can tell easily. I think. Well, here's how we can tell by the fruit, you'll know them. You only know by the end result. It's interesting that Jesus said that you don't know a person by their affirmations or their intentions. You know them by fruit, by the fruit, and the fruit of it is that she passed away, and that journey was not a journey that we despised. I got to see her for another five years. Yeah, she got to celebrate my 50th and hers Wow, and she was quite well for hers. Particularly, oh, that's great. She got to celebrate the marriage of our youngest daughter, kate Wow, and then the knowledge that Kate was pregnant after that. So there was a lot that came out of it Special moments. That was special and rich, and we didn't despise them.

34:28 - Speaker 1
You know I've thought about this a lot. Actually I had a friend, raymond, that had a massive heart attack. He basically died and then over a two-day period, prayer and kind of some techniques with doctors that they tried brought him back. He lived one year to the day Just passed away a couple months ago.

34:47 - Speaker 2
And I think about that. It's such a pity he doesn't hold energy for just one year. Yeah, I think about Raymond.

34:52 - Speaker 1
And I think about a friend of mine said this he had a friend pass away and a friend was consoling him and he said it this way to him. He said I'll use Raymond If I told you that Raymond was in another country, so far away, so deeply ensconced in it, that he can't get communication out. If I told you that he was there and that he was doing well, and he was in a village and he's bringing Christ to them and he's doing well, but you're not going to hear from, you, won't be able to hear from him for years. Would you be okay with that? And the guy says, yeah, I would be okay with that, because at least I'd know. And then the man looked at him, to his friend and said, well, that's where he is, he's just, he's just here, here, we're here and it's there, right, yeah, it's here and it's there. Yeah, and it's just that close I, I do, uh, love what? Um, I forget his name.

35:47
He wrote the shack and how remarkable that story was. It's just, it's just here, it's just there. You know, and and um, and then how do you? So? Now you walk through that, you're a single dad. How many kids were still at home at that point? None, none.

36:01 - Speaker 2
So everybody's out. My youngest was 23 or 24.

36:06 - Speaker 1
Okay, so everybody's out by that point. But did you start moving in ministry?

36:13 - Speaker 2
I took about six weeks break. You know I probably should have taken longer, but I'm a man. What am I going to do? Sit there contemplating my navel and writing a journal of my own sorrow, all day long.

36:24
So I got back into stuff. People were kind to me, I was given room to breathe, I could set my own pace, but there was no. Helen would never have wanted us. She told us quite specifically a whole lot of things, but she would never have wanted us to sit there and waste our lives wishing she was still there.

36:46 - Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

36:47 - Speaker 1
That would not be her intention.

36:48 - Speaker 2
Yeah yeah, so she would want us all to go on to grow up. She told me before I died you need to remarry and don't wait long. You're a useless single.

36:58 - Speaker 1
You see, so she both encouraged and rebuked me at the same time at the same time yeah, you know this, that whole thing of of, uh, somebody passing and being here there, just here there, um, there's that. There's that sense of to me. There's that sense of to me. There's the difference between hope and fantasy. Okay, fantasy would be. Oh, yeah, there's somewhere and somebody will see, hope is my hope and my, because of my faith, which is built with hope. Right, my faith knows she's with Christ.

37:36 - Speaker 2
Yeah, and that's the difference, I agree. So what worries me? So I have a conviction in me that she knew Jesus, her sins were forgiven and, however, she is with the Lord, which is way beyond anything that I or anybody else could ever describe. I don't even begin to understand what that looks like. But the difference between that and this kind of pious um platitude that's, that's rolled out every time. Oh, I'm, I know they're just looking down at you and from heaven and cheering you on, yeah when there's no act of faith whatsoever, just a hope to stop to, to help them avoid the terrible reality of what could be.

38:17 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah that's true, true To me. I don't know that whole looking down from heaven thing. I know we're surrounded by saints.

38:22 - Speaker 2
I hear it all the time. It's such nonsense.

38:23 - Speaker 1
But thank you for saying that, because I think it's creepy, it's hopeless nonsense.

38:28 - Speaker 2
I think it would be creepy Looking down from heaven upon you who are living wrong and upon they who had no faith in Jesus. So it's a kind of a remnant of the Christian culture.

38:37 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so, and I want to get into a couple of these other things, but I want to talk about this for a moment and then. So now you meet Valerie. Did you go to England and then meet Valerie, or did you? How did?

38:50 - Speaker 2
this happen. Well, Valerie, the wonderful thing about this is that Valerie was a member of C3 Manhattan with Stephen Malhickson Stephen Malhickson and she was like a vital member of the church. She wasn't involved in anything specific. She helped out with the children. She would have helped out in greeting, but she ran a business and Stephen Mel said run your business, Phil, and Valerie had great influence. She had influence rather than position.

39:16 - Speaker 1
Well, she's a force. She has a spirit of kindness and love and energy around her. She does that no matter what group she would be in. She would stand out as a child. She was the leader of the pack.

39:29 - Speaker 2
Yeah, so she's like this. That's her personality.

39:31 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so she's part of Stephen Mel Hickson's church and.

39:35 - Speaker 2
I went there and because we were ministering in our churches in America, we happened to love the Hickson's, and still do. And I went there and then and here's the weird thing, paul, is that my son at that stage was working in the church in New York with his wife Deborah and our three grandchildren, and they were friends of Valerie. In fact, valerie used to take the girls who were just preteen. She used to take them to American Doll, which is this big shop in New York, and she would take them out and treat them.

40:08 - Speaker 1
American Doll. She was a friend, which means her business was doing well. Yeah, her business was doing well. Yeah, you can't go to American Doll without some cash.

40:16 - Speaker 2
And then she would also. She invited them out to Shelter Island, which is out to the east of Long Island, on the North Fork of Long Island, and she would essentially shout them accommodation for a few days.

40:28 - Speaker 1
Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa so this is a friend, so yeah. But this is a good friend. Yeah, you didn't know her. No, this is amazing.

40:36 - Speaker 2
She wasn't in my radar. She's blonde. She's from New York. She was not on my radar. Yeah it wasn't.

40:42 - Speaker 1
Yeah Right, okay, this is what you had prayed about. That is amazing. So you met Valerie at the Hickson's church and she was already friends of your son and your grandchildren.

40:51 - Speaker 2
Yes, so my family my two daughters didn't know her, but my son and daughter-in-law did.

40:57 - Speaker 3
They loved her.

40:57 - Speaker 2
Isn't that fascinating In fact they worked in the same building as her Get out of here, because she gave part of her office space to C3 Manhattan. Wow, she gave it to them for nothing for a season as office space. Really yeah, so she paid the bill and they got use of half the room, half the space.

41:14 - Speaker 1
Sorry, that is amazing. And so you and valerie met and uh and so how much? How long did that? You dated which? Had she been married before or no, she's been single.

41:26 - Speaker 2
And so now you guys dated so we've never faced the brady bunch, yeah, which is never the brady bunch yeah, um. So I would say within possibly a year and a half to two years. So Helen died in 2008. We were married in 2011. So that was 19.

41:50 - Speaker 1
You met a year later.

41:51 - Speaker 2
It was just. I met her about a year and a half later.

41:56 - Speaker 1
So, okay, so now At the church, but you dated at the church, but you dated for a year over a year. No, it wasn't half later. Okay, so now At the church, but you dated at the church, but you dated for a year over a year.

42:01 - Speaker 2
No, it wasn't that long. Okay, maybe it was Something in people that are I don't remember the times In their 40s or 50s or whatever.

42:10 - Speaker 1
At the time I was in my mid-50s yeah, so you're pretty decisive. At that point You're pretty like, yeah, it's going to work, not going to work Well, do you know what?

42:18 - Speaker 2
helped it and people find this unusual is that I had befriended another girl and it was never going to work and nothing ever happened. There was no future. But you know I was single and you don't realize how screwed up you are after your wife dies. So people told me years later you were screwed up, but I thought I was just a rational Simon. But clearly I wasn't. So I accept that and my kids had to live with some of that. When you say screwed up, what do you mean? Oh, you're messed up emotionally.

42:53 - Speaker 1
Is it the way you react to things? I don't know the way you make decisions. No, no react to things, so you make decisions no no, because my decision making is pretty, is largely good.

43:02 - Speaker 2
Yeah, pretty, just I'm decisive. Yeah, no, I just didn't know myself. It's like when I started dating valerie, it was like I was 18 again and it's that great flush of that.

43:14 - Speaker 1
So when I first saw but you didn't say some of the stupid stuff you would have said when you were 18 no, yeah, okay, so there's that and we didn't do anything stupid and I didn't say anything stupid, but we got along well.

43:27 - Speaker 2
But there was that same. Eventually yeah, not straight away, she came to the party quicker than I did, and I'm not saying that to belittle her at all. But she said to me I'm in, are you to belittle her at all? But she said to me I'm in, are you? And I said, look, I think I am, can you just give me a little bit of time? Just let me process. I think I'm nearly there. But I couldn't say yes. Here's the weird thing she dropped me off at the airport. I was returning back to Australia Before I walked off the jet air bridge onto the plane. So I was still technically in New York, in New York, not on the plane. I said I'm in, really Yep.

44:05 - Speaker 1
Right and I never changed my mind. Yeah Well, that's good because you're married now, that's right. Yeah, so when you get married, saying you're going to stick is a really good thing Also.

44:19 - Speaker 2
I've never had divorce in my family around me. I never faced the concept of divorce in my first marriage, so I don't have that out or that path as a groove in my brain.

44:31 - Speaker 1
So now you and Val are married, go to England, oversee churches, pastor, hand it off. Well, we've got the C3 group of churches in Europe is doing very well.

44:45 - Speaker 2
Very healthy and well, yeah, great couple leading it.

44:48 - Speaker 1
Yeah, steve and Lisby Warren.

44:49 - Speaker 2
Yeah, Steve and Lisby Warren.

44:50 - Speaker 1
Brilliant and they're out of, well, they're out of England. He's English, right, they're both English, they're both English.

44:57 - Speaker 2
And then they ended up… Somerset and.

44:58 - Speaker 1
Devon people. Were they first in London with Herbertson at that thing. Were they…?

45:05 - Speaker 2
No. And then went to Amsterdam. No, they went. They went from a church in Winchcombe, a little village that joined us. They, since left, which that worked for everybody, that wasn't an issue. But Steve and left, which was that worked for everybody, that wasn't an issue. But steven lisby became the they were the prize of that relationship okay, and another, and another person as well, and they went and helped out james in in amsterdam.

45:32
In amsterdam, james had this growing church right and then james left through right sadly left and they took over that church. But they're very English.

45:44 - Speaker 1
So for them to live in the Netherlands.

45:45 - Speaker 2
It's a cost to them, but now their boys are thoroughly.

45:48 - Speaker 1
Dutch, oh my goodness, and the churches are doing well and it's growing. And then you come to Miami and overseeing America's, moving into some new places, as you mentioned. But one of the things that you do and you do very well is you write, and you just wrote a book and I want to mention it. It's Joshua Lessons in the Wilderness, what I Learned when no One Was Watching, so it's a great title and what I did when everybody was Right and what I did when everybody was, and what I did when everybody was Right, and what I did when everybody was.

46:19
So, because this is a fascinating study, it's a great book, so I'm going to recommend it to everybody, thank you. And you can get it on Amazon Amazon around the world. C3 probably has it somewhere.

46:33 - Speaker 2
No, just on Amazon, just on Amazon.

46:36 - Speaker 1
No, you know, amazon prints you one copy and send it to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, so, joshua, lessons of Wilderness. And so it's Simon McIntyre, m-c-i-n-t-y-r-e. So that's also. You also have a website, simonmcintyrenet, is it?

46:49 - Speaker 2
Simonmcintyrenet? Yeah, and that's where I do blogs and provocative things.

46:53 - Speaker 1
Right and Right, and you wrote one about the wilderness, okay, and then it's also in the book on Joshua about the wilderness and the wilderness, and he said this the most obvious example of the wilderness. He talked about temptation of Christ. Something happened in the wilderness. Something changed, straightened, fortified him. This is really I love the way you picked up this change. You went into the desert full of the Holy Spirit and he came out in the power of the Spirit, the difference being that gift is given or filled, while character is obtained. So the gift is given, character obtained over time. And a couple other things. I'll read a couple things that you said. We're slow to change, perceive things. We're much slower than we care to admit and caring to admit is also one of our problems. And it says the soul walks. This is brilliant in this chapter, by the way. Wilderness slows us down internally and gives us space for the working of God's creative and redemptive Holy Spirit. We learn to listen to our see ourselves more clearly.

48:05
Most of us, if as productive, let me just say it that way Westerners really don't like the wilderness. We push back on it. We push back on it. We look on Moses and the children of Israel and Joshua and his wandering in the wilderness as a nonproductive time. Like what is it? Was it 40 days walk and it took them 40 years? Yeah, apparently only 40 days journey at the most, yeah, at the most, and in fact came around the second time. Came around once to the place supposed to go across the Jordan. Came back second time. What is the wilderness to you? What does that mean, and how do we pull ourselves back from this chaotic life and a life in which we are taught be productive life and a life in which we are taught be productive? How do we unplug from productivity, or are we unplugging from productivity? What's the wilderness?

49:06 - Speaker 2
to you, simon. My problem is that I don't think anybody unplugs. I think people are forced into Most people are forced into a wilderness. Because we don't naturally unplug, we don't naturally Sabbath no, because we think that Sabbath is a complete waste of time. I'm not talking about the religious notion of that. I'd say the Western culture is that it's like we don't need a Sabbath. Work hard, do well, believe God. It's like we're sort of caught in this treadmill. Look, if I could. It's not easy to answer your question because I'm not sure we recognize wildernesses that well. They did, of course, because it was physical. Yeah, it was a terribly unproductive time for most of the people. The generation that disbelieved all died in the wilderness yeah.

49:53
So people say well wilderness is a places of death. Well, hold on. The wilderness is where Joshua became who he was. Yeah, so it depended upon. It depends upon a lot of things.

50:06 - Speaker 1
And it was the wilderness where Christ and my son Brandon, in his brilliant study on the wilderness, talked about how he said isn't it unusual that you baptize somebody and then say, hey, why don't you just go off to the wilderness and be tempted for 40 days? That would be a good thing, but it's the wilderness.

50:26 - Speaker 2
I think the wilderness faces us with ourselves and it straightens us up.

50:31 - Speaker 1
How do we wilderness? I mean, how do we do that? How do you unplug? Let's make it personal. How do you do that? How do you and Val do that? How do you unplug? Let's make it personal. How do you do that? How do you and Val do that? How do you guys Sabbath? How do you find that? How do you find space? You know it says the Bible says where two or three are gathered together. There he is in the midst, and it was pointed out to me by someone years ago. That means that God always shows up in the spaces in between.

50:57 - Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah that's. I think that's a clever reading of it.

50:59 - Speaker 1
Yeah, how do we find?

51:00 - Speaker 2
that Well. How do you find that? Well, I take Saturday off. I just do nothing. I watch a couple of games of English Premier League, yeah, but that's not godly. Depends what team you follow. Depends what team. That's right.

51:18 - Speaker 1
I mean, is it?

51:19 - Speaker 2
I don't think it's ungodly, I think it's just chill.

51:24 - Speaker 1
So chill Sabbath, whatever we want to call it, is part of being healthy.

51:29 - Speaker 2
I deliberately don't go into my office and read emails. I'm a great fan of reading theology texts. I don't do that on a Saturday, really. Sometimes we may go and do something for fun, but otherwise we just chill. I might do some washing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know just bits and pieces, life stuff. But also, I think, more importantly, we do have holidays and it's quite hard for Valerie to unplug because she's the business owner.

51:57 - Speaker 1
Well, she's American.

51:59 - Speaker 2
And she's a business owner.

52:00 - Speaker 1
Yeah, she's a business owner and we, as Americans, we have two weeks vacation and we don't take one of them. Well, that staggers the rest of the world. Yeah, I mean to me that's so unhealthy?

52:10 - Speaker 2
Yeah, exactly it is unhealthy. The rest of the English-speaking world has four weeks a year. Yeah, four weeks a year. Yeah, very few people take a month at a time, but at least they take two weeks.

52:21 - Speaker 1
But I do have friends. You know my mutual friend and he's on our board of directors, michael Murphy. He'll write me from Bali or something, where they're taking a vacation. I say, oh, that's awesome, man, how long are you there? And for me like exorbitant, like crazy, would be eight days. He goes, oh, we're here for about two and a half weeks and then you know, now he is texting me, he is staying in touch with his assistant, there's that, but it's like. But for him he knows this is his place of health and the wilderness for Joshua was his place of coming to age.

52:59 - Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yes, I can't fully describe what a wilderness looks like. I just know what he learned in the wilderness. I'm sure we've all had wilderness seasons. People talk about wilderness seasons. Sometimes it's just because you made a lot of bad decisions and things are going wrong. Other times it can be because God literally prunes you back to make you more fruitful. If our relationship's with Jesus, we're going to be okay anywhere. If it's not, we're not going to be okay anywhere.

53:29 - Speaker 1
You said in the book again another place. Preachers who find their messages in dark and obscure seasons and become famous easily retreat from their own sense of reliance upon God and inadequacy of themselves. In the bright sunlight of constant demand and exposure, they become soulless and parched. Their signature message easily becomes the reason for their singular decline. Did I say all that? Yeah, it was really good.

53:58 - Speaker 2
I have no idea what I said.

53:59 - Speaker 1
Okay, here's what it is. It has to do with seasons of fame, it has to do with boom. He was in a dark spot, found a word and that word became his message. And then that book. I remember there was a guy who he actually traveled for a couple of years this is in the late 80s and it was a book called. It was a book about being burned out. Okay, and it wasn't like Wayne Cordero's great book on that.

54:28 - Speaker 2
It was earlier Was it Gordon.

54:29 - Speaker 1
McDonald no, ordinary Private World no, it was a guy before that where he did this whole thing and it was about burnout I forget the name of the book, but it was on burnout and he did a series of conferences and after a year and a half conferences he tipped over. He was burnt out. He burned out on his own, on his own message. It's terrible.

54:50 - Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, it's ironically funny, he's responding to the crowd rather than setting the tone.

54:58 - Speaker 1
Okay, there you go. Okay, now you're hitting that thing there.

55:02 - Speaker 2
So I was just reading in John 6, when Jesus did the miracle of the feeding of the 5,000. Yeah, at the end of it, they were so excited about what he could do for them, they decided to force him to become a king. So he just left. In fact, his disciples didn't even know where he was. Yeah, that's why they went back on a boat that night to Capernaum, because they must have thought we don't know where he is, we don't know what's happening, but we've got to get home. So Jesus deliberately avoided premature limelight. He walked away from fame. We walk to fame Now.

55:42
Look, paul, I've never been famous, so I'm talking partly academically. But I've seen people, but you're infamous. I've seen people who've said to me personally when they became well-known, it was intoxicating, it went to my head and I traveled too much. Yeah, it was fascinating. Years ago we had a guy who did I won't mention names, that's unfair, but he did marriage ministry and his stuff was superb, oh, superb. But he was on the road all the time. Was that at Jack Hayford's church? I'm not sure.

56:13 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, guess what happened. Yeah, he's divorced. Yeah, it's his marriage ministry wasn't being lived out, exactly because he became famous with, so he ends up, we're all clamoring machine and the machine ends up running him.

56:28
yeah, so how do we walk? Okay, so now, how do we walk? This is a personal question. How do I walk the razor's edge? I, I don't want that, I don't.

56:38
But I also want this ministry that we do with Christian Men's Network, dangerous Nations, the stuff we're doing around the world, the things that God's doing, the groups that are happening, the fathers' lives that are being transformed and changed. I want people to know about it. Also, you know, I need more partners. I mean, I'm fine with, I'm really satisfied with what's going on, but I'm dissatisfied, because I'm dissatisfied, if you will, for the children whose dads are not transformed right now, who are walking back into really difficult situations really desperately. Um, I agonize over the lives of young men and women who are being abused and and, and I, I just know that if we could just get enough guys doing enough stuff, somebody's going to walk across the path of that dad. I, I don't believe there's one man beyond a reach of grace. How do I walk that razor's edge? Simon of? I don't want to be famous, I don't have this desire for a million followers on social media, but I'd sure like a million people to see it.

57:48 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I understand that Sometimes I think a burden tricks us, though To me there's something in what you're saying that this is the way I read it, that this is the way I read it. We are important and unimportant. What you're doing will be picked up by others, and you burning it.

58:08
I know you don't you burning yourself out to reach one more person is of no value to that one more person. So I think there's got to be something in us that says I do what I can, I don't burn myself out doing it and allow God to look after the gaps. That's how I would look at it.

58:28 - Speaker 1
No, I think it's a brilliant answer. You know, and I think about that the whole burnout thing because my father's generation was basically taught that. In fact, he was taught you sacrifice everything for the kingdom of heaven and he almost sacrificed his family. You know, I wasn't a great athlete but I played athletics and I did a lot of stuff and we remember my dad and I talked about it later as he began this Christian Men's Network ministry and we kind of grappled with some things. Even then, when he started this, I would have been what in my late 30s, early 40s and he and I sat down and talked about it.

59:07
One time he didn't come to any of my sports games. We tracked back. We could only think of five games, I think two baseball, one baseball when I was in college, one baseball when I was young, one football when I was young and two basketball when I was in college. That's all he could remember. That's all I could remember him ever being at the game. In fact, I remember my college coach and I wasn't a starter. We had a really good team seniors and juniors ahead of us and I remember our college coach. He said, hey, your dad's going to be here at this game I go. Yeah, he goes, I'll start you, which is a big deal. Now, he did that for me knowing that it was the only time my dad would ever be there and it was the second year I was playing basketball. So it was like you know.

59:57
And I think about those things and how wrong that is, simon, and how we have damaged people with that whole thing, and we've even damaged people by making them famous, right, and yet there's this edge of like. I'll tell you the jealousy I have in the kingdom. I have a desire, a jealousy would be a King James word. I have a desire to see a lot of men read this book on Joshua. Okay, for you, for them. So I have a desire to talk about it.

01:00:28
I would desire for people to read Phil Pringle's books. His book on faith he wrote in his late 20s is still one that I read every year. Right, little book on faith, and I have a jealousy for many people to see that. I would love for millions and millions of men to read that little book. I have a desire for that, so I want to make that known. Is there, you know? So I guess there's that motivation thing, right, like if I want more people to listen to the podcast. My motivation is not. Hey, I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody go. Hey, I know that voice.

01:01:08
Yeah, no, clearly I want more people to hear, yes, this message of freedom and clarity. And and romans 12, 2 says, says if you want to change your life, change the way you think, be transformed by the power of God, to change your thinking, to know the will of God, which is good and pleasing and perfect. And that's where I'd love for men that I come in contact with to live.

01:01:35 - Speaker 2
I think of men. Look, the desire for influence, I think, is a wonderful thing. It's more enduring than fame. Yeah, you know, fame is a shooting star yeah but influence endures.

01:01:49
But I think one of the ways that we could do it is by the difficult job of pacing our lives. I look at myself as I'm just not that important. I might be important to my children and my wife, hopefully, but I'm not that important. If I'm not here, God's kingdom will still continue to increase. It's not reliant upon me. So I don't look at myself as pivotal in the history of the earth. I look at myself as a contributor to what God's doing. But if we don't pace our lives, everything else will overtake us.

01:02:26
So Jesus, when he became famous, he withdrew. He withdrew. Mark has him constantly in the early chapters withdrawing. Why Well, he needed to hear what God was saying, not what the clamor of the people was saying. Why, Well, he needed to hear what God was saying, not what the clamor of the people was saying. And I think people mistake the clamor of what the people are saying for what God's saying. That's incredibly dangerous because it'll lead to burnout, and burnout normally is attended by immorality Somewhere along the line. They're not always mixed Plenty of cases they're not but they often end up being mixed or financial dealings go south.

01:03:01 - Speaker 1
Because decisions become clouded.

01:03:05 - Speaker 3
You're looking for a way out.

01:03:06 - Speaker 1
You're looking for a medicinal way out. You're looking for a quick fix, and a lot of times that'll lead into those things.

01:03:12 - Speaker 2
Can you imagine walking down the street and every second person wants to stop you and get your autograph To?

01:03:17 - Speaker 3
me, that's the most terrible thing.

01:03:21 - Speaker 2
I'd be living in a cage.

01:03:23 - Speaker 1
So now, motivation of my life then would be I desire to live a significant life, to have influence for the kingdom of heaven. Fame comes or goes, whatever right and there are Christians who do become famous.

01:03:36 - Speaker 2
But this is my conviction. Very, very few people know how to handle fame. Yeah, very few christian or otherwise, very few people know how to handle power. Yeah, it's a rare person that can handle power without it corrupting them. Yeah, it's a rare person that can handle fame without it somehow making them think something of themselves.

01:03:56 - Speaker 1
That's not true yeah, because it pivots around me and you only have to look at the people who have won lotteries. You know state lotteries, government lotteries, all those kinds of things all over the world, and abundant stories. And the vast majority of people who have won a lottery, whether it's a million dollars or 300 million dollars, have ended up either losing all of that money or worse off, or worse off Because they go and buy a fabulous house, but they've forgotten they've got to pay taxes for the next 20 years.

01:04:25
Well, there's that. But there was the man in West Virginia who won hundreds of millions of dollars and said it's the worst thing that ever happened to his life. His daughter ended up his granddaughter excuse me ended up with money. It came flowing down and she ended up with money. It came flowing down and she ended up suicidal. She ended up suicide because of a drug dependency, because she had the money and now she had freedom. And then a number of other things happened. He ended up marrying somebody he shouldn't have married. All of this stuff happened. He said it's the worst thing that ever happened to me it's the love of money, fame.

01:04:59 - Speaker 2
So we're of money, so fame, so we're equating it with fame. You know, this is what I think. This is that most Christians should thank God they're not wealthy. Yeah, they should thank God. It would destroy them. Yeah, because they've not grown up with the value of it. So you know, when people say, oh, you know, if you believe in Jesus, you know you'll prosper. Prosperity is different to me. Being prosperous is different than just having money in your pocket. Okay, what?

01:05:24
does it mean it would be having wisdom. Knowing Paul said the secret of living was learning how to deal with having much or nothing. That's where he was the genius. Whether he was, he was never rich by our standards, whether he was comfortably well off or had nothing and was living, not even eating properly, which he faced a lot, he said. The person that can learn to be content in that that's a genius. He said it's the secret of living. I've discovered the secret of living, wow, you know. So the secret of living is not having or not not having. It's being content with where you're at. That's a soul that's rested in Christ, and there's very few of us like that. So the other day I was thinking. One of the Proverbs says thank God you don't have too little so that you don't end up poor and avarice. Thank God you don't have too much that you don't end up thinking too much of yourself.

01:06:19 - Speaker 1
Well, I have a friend who has a close friend in his Bible study, extremely wealthy. The guy pulled him aside one day and he said you know, I love what we're doing here. He said I'm just having an issue. And he said what's the issue? He said I don't know who to trust. There you go. I don't know who to trust. He said I don't know who. I have nobody. I don't know who to trust, man, how any any? So they started that journey of how do you do that? Now I've got, uh, one more thing. I got a comment and one more thing, and thank you, simon mcintyre, for being on brave men podcast taking time out of your days you know, I flew away from miami just to be, yeah, just to be here just for this moment.

01:06:57
Well, the check's in the mail. Actually it's not in, not in the mail yet, but when it is I'll let you know. Oh, yeah, sure. So let me make a comment on that whole burning out for God sort of thing. I did say that when I was building my business in my 30s and 40s hey, we'll sleep when we die, we you know. Hey, you know we'll sleep when we die. You know we'll sleep when we get to heaven. And I've heard that comment a lot from guys. And or, hey, I'm just going to burn out and just get there. Whenever I get there, god's got my number, whatever, like the oh.

01:07:30 - Speaker 2
I'm going to burn out, not roughed out. Yeah, exactly, it's complete folly.

01:07:34 - Speaker 1
Yeah Well, that's what has happened in my life in terms of balancing life and even now, having read many of the studies that are coming out now on rest and sleep, I'm talking to men all the time now and if you're listening right now watching this, take this the book Rest. There's a book Peter Atiyah's book on longevity, others who talk about the importance of rest and sleep, and if I want to be listen, I want to be around for my grandchildren. I want to be around for my. In fact, it was Gary Clark that gave me that word years ago, who pastored in London, and he said I looked at him and he was guys were having steaks and a bunch of stuff and he had just a salad. Yeah, dude, what are you doing? You know, he said this is a gift to my grandchildren. Oh, yeah, dude, what are you doing? He said this is a gift to my grandchildren. Oh, that's awesome. That's Gary, bro. I never forgot that. That was years ago and I never forgot that. I shared that with him Because what he was doing was staying healthy for his grandchildren.

01:08:29
Absolutely, bishop Bronner, who's our chairman of our board. I said what's the best thing to happen with your dad being 50 years old when you were born. He said he knew exactly how he wanted to raise me. I said what was the downside? He said my children didn't really benefit from having their grandfather there. So he made a deal with his children and he could say it better. He said I want you to get married young, help you with your housing. I want you to go to school, get married and have children. And he's got.

01:08:59
I think Bishop has 11 or 12 grandchildren now at not an older age and he's able to impact his grandchildren's lives. He's wonderful and I think that's so to me. When we're coming back to sleep rest it's about health. I believe if you're going to have impact and be responsible for the kingdom of heaven and your responsibilities and things you have, you get rest. You met Judy just a moment ago. She was taking off on a walk. You know she walks 12 miles, 12 to 15 miles a week, four different times that she'll walk. I've ticked my, I continue to tick my sleep back to where now I'm pretty regularly, seven hours a night Now. I just didn't do that for years and I'm doing that because I'm realizing and recognizing all these things are important.

01:09:52 - Speaker 2
I remember somebody saying to me once I was a pastor of a big church I live tired. It hasn't turned out too well, no, exactly.

01:10:01 - Speaker 1
Or that whole thing about you're preaching so much you can't hardly talk you're hoarse.

01:10:05 - Speaker 2
Yeah, I live tired. To me, that's spurious spirituality. It's like patting myself on the back. By the way, this person today would laugh at what they said because they realized. Well, it was what they said. Yeah, because they realized.

01:10:22 - Speaker 1
Well, it was a humble brag.

01:10:23 - Speaker 2
Yeah, it was. We call it a humble brag, that's right, they're humble brags, but they're of no value, they're not biblical. They probably are more based upon the Western CEO.

01:10:34 - Speaker 1
Yeah, Western productivity it's the whole thing about Western productivity was all about. When the industrial age came about, you knew that a town was prosperous because it was noisy. And when we talk about the wilderness and about going into the wilderness, for most Westerners the wilderness is not productive because it has no noise involved and that's the most productive.

01:10:56 - Speaker 2
The lack of noise? Right, because it slows the soul down. Like I said in that book, I think our soul walks, it doesn't run, it doesn't catch an aeroplane, and when you're in that constant rush, I feel like there's something of you that goes further and further backwards, until one day there's a disconnect between you and what you've become. Until one day there's a disconnect between you and what you've become and it's hard to hear God's Spirit when you are at the peak of your powers.

01:11:30 - Speaker 1
It's hard to hear God. I'm going to just hit you with one thing, because there's a couple things.

01:11:34 - Speaker 2
He's going to hit me. Help Quick, get me out of here.

01:11:37 - Speaker 1
Some of them just take time and so let's do this. You said and a comment back to somebody else on one of your blogs, it's simonmcintyrenet, one of your blogs you said you were encouraged by a return to historic Christianity or orthodoxy. What do you mean by that? Because to some of us who are untrained, we would think that sounds like legalism, Orthodoxy, legalism, because we don't know all the terms right. You're encouraged by a return to historic Christianity and orthodoxy. What does that mean?

01:12:12 - Speaker 2
What I see is that a lot of younger men in the Pentecostal world are actually taking more note of historic and orthodox faith, like the creeds, like an understanding of Trinity, like the meaning of salvation, theologically rather than just as a point in a message, rather than just experientially.

01:12:37 - Speaker 1
So the church.

01:12:39 - Speaker 2
We were raised in the Pentecostal era, where there was a. If it wasn't said specifically, it was always implied that with the outpouring of the Spirit, as we've seen it in the 20th century or 19th 20th century it's almost like that's when Christianity restarted. So there's this massive hiatus of 1,800 years in which people screwed up as if.

01:13:05 - Speaker 1
Nothing much happened. Nothing much happened, I mean that's the greatest nonsense. Yeah.

01:13:09 - Speaker 2
Because everything we, the integrity of our New Testament, is because of those hundreds of years of scholarship, of threshing things out of councils, the first three or four hundred years the councils were there, that's right, so we

01:13:22
are the inheritance of something that we've despised and I just think it's healthy that we see young, particularly younger men and women who are returning to a. The problem with this? Here's the problem. Yeah, young men and young women with good theological background can become arrogant because knowledge does puff people up. That's the danger. I think people, as they're older, should do more theological training, do your practical training under somebody, but I'm encouraged by it. I see lots of pastors who are now looking at getting at least a Bachelor of Theology from a university that's recognized, rather than something that you get off the back of a cornflakes packet. Yeah, there's a thinness. If all you're doing is preaching messages you hear and you're not getting background and context and understanding, your messages are going to become thin. In other words.

01:14:22 - Speaker 1
you haven't built a foundation upon which to layer these things, and so we end up looking for the next hottest thing.

01:14:33 - Speaker 2
One of my questions to young pastors is what are you reading and who are you listening to and how do you prepare a message? And I hear guys say I listen to a great preacher and I preach his message. I'm thinking like, well, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, even if you are a good mimic of that message.

01:14:54 - Speaker 3
That's dumb.

01:14:55 - Speaker 2
Where are you getting food for you? Where's your food for you? Yeah, that's already chewed, that meat. Go and chew your own, or at least have Brussels sprouts. Yeah, at least.

01:15:07 - Speaker 1
So I'm encouraged by that trend Roast them.

01:15:09 - Speaker 2
well, if you're going to have them, yeah, I'm encouraged by the trend.

01:15:11 - Speaker 1
Okay, so when we speak of orthodoxy, what we're talking about is, if you will, the church fathers we're talking about is, if you will, the church fathers. We're speaking about the guys who have worked it out and whatever that may be.

01:15:25 - Speaker 2
Yep. And Scripture is the foundation of our faith. And each of those eras they had a particular philosophical view of how things were that bring a richness to Scripture.

01:15:36
Yeah, so I think that's wonderful. I don't know how many people have read Aquinas, but he's a genius. Yeah, so I think that's wonderful. I don't know how many people have read Aquinas, but he's a genius. Yeah, and although that's not going to satisfy a lot of Protestants, but read Augustine. Augustine, now, these men were philosophical. Yeah, they were trained in Greek rhetoric and they think in ways, but they brought a contextualization to their own communities of what Scripture means. So I enjoy them. My favorite preachers are all dead, not because I shot them, but because CS Lewis is a staggering thinker. Yeah, Some of the great writers of our past.

01:16:18 - Speaker 1
It's interesting how we and I guess we're part of the are we part of the evangelical world? I guess that's what we are right Now.

01:16:25 - Speaker 2
We're considered that. So, Pentecostals sort of morphed into charismatics and then morphed into evangelical. Yeah, it's all part of that.

01:16:33 - Speaker 1
We tend to believe the same thing, and so we tend to take Isolusius Lewis and go well, he was an evangelical even though he wasn't no he wasn't really.

01:16:41 - Speaker 2
No, he wasn't really. He was Anglican. Yeah, he was an Orthodox Anglican.

01:16:47 - Speaker 1
Yeah, he's a fascinating man because I spent a day at his house last summer. It's fascinating because really his entire life and there was a series of setbacks right Grief observed and then he didn't get the chair he wanted at Oxford. So he goes to Cambridge and all that sort of stuff and he did have a series of things happen to him and so he was always pushing at what is this faith about? Because his faith in Christ actually in many ways came about through a theological or I don't know, almost philosophical kind of study of why moral law and myths yeah, myths and moral law he saw all the great myths and all the moral laws all funneling to Christ.

01:17:34 - Speaker 2
Yes, so his belief was every culture and every age has a voice of God and it's somewhere that's what I think he's saying and it culminated in the person of Jesus. So in some ways it made what they said redundant, but it was at least leading there. If you've ever read Surprised by Joy, it would annoy most Christians because it's not a testimony like we think. He just realized something In all his learning and training. He realized it's pointing to somebody.

01:18:07 - Speaker 1
You know, simon, what I believe we need is I believe we need the CS Lewis's and the Max Lucado's. I believe we need the you know whoever it may be different streams of people. I believe we need the different teachers and different things in order to—the richness of being a follower of Christ. I think is—because it's like not everybody's going to agree. Now it's Paul. Remember what he's saying in Philippians? He goes hey, you may not agree with this, uh, but the lord will give you at some point, understanding. Understanding that I'm right. Yeah, no, he is clever.

01:18:49 - Speaker 2
I also love, too, where paul said you know, some time of paul I'm, of apollos, I'm peter. He said don't you realize that we're all a gift to help you grow? Yeah, you're not to mean following us. Yeah, we need william seymour's, don't? We're all a gift to help you grow? Yeah, you're not to mean following us. Yeah, we need William Seymours, don't we?

01:19:03 - Speaker 3
Yeah, we do.

01:19:03 - Speaker 2
We need a man that's bold to stand on a pulpit without any training, without any recognition, and to proclaim something that God's wonderfully doing.

01:19:10 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think we need the Anglican pulpit and we need the priest in Arequipa, Peru, who's got 300 men going through some of our curriculum Wonderful and I believe we need all of that. And Simon McIntyre. I believe we need Simon McIntyre writing and speaking life into culture and blogging, and more books like Joshua. You've written three books now that have been published.

01:19:37 - Speaker 2
Is that right? They're also published. Yeah, if I'm looking to pay my bills by publishing, I'm going to be very skinny.

01:19:44 - Speaker 1
Well, there you go. That's not bad, but we need that, we need your voice and we need what you're doing and I realize you're doing through a transition from your responsibilities.

01:19:53 - Speaker 2
Not my gender, just in my job.

01:19:54 - Speaker 1
Thanks, Not a gender transition? Okay, yeah, thanks. Yeah. Not a gender change Okay, no, I'm not doing that this week. Yeah and so, but I just thank the Lord for you, simon. I thank the Lord for how you've ministered into my family's life my son Bryce, who's here with us as our producer, and my son Brandon, and then, in a tertiary way, to my daughter and her family and all of us, to Judy and I. You've been a voice, and all of us to Judy and I. You've been a voice, and there are moments that I don't even know if I can describe some of these moments without somebody saying wait a second, he can't do that, and I think Plastic Jesus would be the culmination oh, the bobblehead Jesus.

01:20:30
Bobblehead bobblehead. No, you had bobblehead Jesus at one point and then you had the one that was the wind-up Jesus that you pulled out when you were speaking and you had it on your pulpit and it fell off.

01:20:45 - Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, I dropped the Messiah, yeah.

01:20:48 - Speaker 1
I dropped the Messiah.

01:20:49 - Speaker 2
Yeah, that was a bad day. Then I think we got him back with a helicopter. Yeah, the thing with the bobblehead Jesus, I called him my. He was my guidance doll, because he only ever said yes. He's the only one. He's the yes and amen Messiah. He's the Messiah that I want to have.

01:21:05 - Speaker 1
He says yes to everything, always. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. And I think you said oh, I think I killed him a second time, but we need that. We need that sort of thing that pokes at our seriousness about ourselves.

01:21:22 - Speaker 2
So thank you, simon, for being Simon Well as I always say, paul, if you can't laugh at yourself, you need to, because everybody else is laughing. Thank you, I appreciate what you're saying.

01:21:32 - Speaker 1
Simon McIntyre. We'll talk about this in the show notes and some of the other things we do. But, man, that was a great discussion. We could talk about a lot of other things. I'd like to do that again in the future. But thank you, brother. God bless you, man, you and Valerie, and what you're carving out and the new things that you're doing, your new path and all of that. Our prayer is that every place you put your feet will be holy ground, everything you put your hands to will prosper, and that the favor of God will cover you like a sphere over your lives of you and Val and your family.

01:22:03 - Speaker 2
I appreciate that and I'm taking that in Amen. Thank you, paul. Love you man, you too.

01:22:13 - Speaker 3
Brave Men is a production of Christian Men's Network, a global movement of men committed to passionately following Jesus on the ground in over a hundred nations worldwide. You can receive the Brave Men motivational email, find books and resources for discipleship and parenting at cmn.men. That's cmn.men. Your host has been Paul Lewis Cole, president of Christian Men's Network, and if you haven't yet, please make sure you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast wherever you find podcasts or download it. Thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you next time on Brave Men.