Guiding Souls and Shaping Legacies with Steve Trevino

00:00 - Speaker 1
And now I have a global leader who is sitting across from me and he goes would you teach my men to die? And I go wait a minute. This is not the same thing Like I'm teaching my men to die, like I'm teaching them how to, you know. Like do the dishes instead of watching SportsCenter, you know.

00:18 - Speaker 2
Yeah, actually, which is you?

00:22 - Speaker 1
know quite a death, Right. But you know you're saying, your guys, you guys can potentially like actually die and he goes, yeah.

00:35 - Speaker 2
Hi, this is Paul Louis Cole. You're listening to the brave men podcast. I am so happy you're here. Thanks for being with me today.

00:43
A great friend, steve Trevino, he's that guy living that Stephen Curtis Chapman song For the Sake of the Call, you know, just for the cause of Christ, just going for it all out. He's been a pastor, church planter. He built a medical center in South Texas and then gave all that into another group of people, moved to San Francisco to work in the urban setting. I mean, this guy, he's on fire for Christ and you'll feel it and sense it. But he's also a man with a strategy. He's helped plant hundreds of churches in the Middle East in difficult situations, most of them in Farsi, now working into Arabic with us with Christian Men's Network and the New Maximized Manhood in Arabic. He's our lead trainer for pastors and leaders. In fact, as you listen to this podcast, or as we produce it let me put it that way as we produce this podcast with Steve Trevino, he is in the Middle East right now training over 400 pastors on discipling men. One of the things we've found with Christian Men's Network is that most pastors are trained how to preach sermons, not how to disciple men, and it's a different process. You just don't preach men into maturity. You can preach them into a place of commitment. But Jesus spent time with his guys sitting around a campfire, fishing, walking the road to another place where he would minister, always sharing with them, living life together, and that's how it's done. And so Steve is a remarkable man.

02:30
I love this guy. He's a little bit younger than me Well, he's a lot younger than me, or maybe, let's put it this way, I'm older than him. That may be the thing, but man, I love hanging out with him because he's just full of ideas and things and strategy and let's go do this. And he's got that kind of thing on him Father of two beautiful daughters and his lovely wife, julie. So this is a great conversation. This is something that will help fire up your sense of man. This thing's bigger than me. I'm part of something larger. I think that's where we all want to be, for all your discipleship needs resources to disciple your children, your family, your son, to disciple men around you, to help men get better and for yourself, for you to grow, become the man you desire to be and the man God designed you to be. Go to cmnmen, c-m-n, christian Men's Network, c-m that's an M. Don't go to CNN Not going to help you there Mostly negative cmnmen and you'll find all the resources you need.

03:42
And I'm thankful for men like Steve Trevino, who were traveling with us in different countries, sam Masteller and his crew and a number of others had it, and Paul Buchanan and Reginald Garman in the Middle East, but Sam Masteller in the Vietnam, other friends from across the country down with Robert Berger and Christian Schalhe, down in Colombia and Peru recently, then into Mexico with great friends Pastor Jesus Segura and Chris Richards and others. Stuff's happening every day, man. I get texts every day, emails every day, whatsapp, a lot of WhatsApp stuff from men from Brazil, from Uganda, from around the world, where the men's movement, the movement to disciple men, is growing. God's breathing new life into the discipling of men. I see it across the United States. I think it's fantastic. Local churches actually starting to articulate a pathway for men's discipleship has to happen, because if we don't change the heart of a man, we lose the nation. If men's hearts don't change, we go the way of Babel or Gomorrah or anywhere else. That's lost sight of God. So thanks for being on, brave man, tell somebody and then go on that little button that's subscribe. Every person who subscribes widens the algorithm. Some guy named Al widens the algorithm as a dad joke, sorry the algorithm of who we can reach and how we're able to reach more men with the message that Jesus Christ is alive, hope is alive, hope has a name, hope's name is Jesus, and so this is going to be great. You're going to love this being with Steve.

05:41
And also, if you see different things on our events, go on the events on cmnman hit events. Look at some of those things you know. Show up, be there with us. You know fly. You know fly into wherever it is Houston or Phoenix. Or you know, meet up with me and Otto Kelly in Reno, right on down the line. You know with with David Taylor in Uganda. Show up in Uganda.

06:06
You know it's kind of like this what I tell men they say, hey, I want to go on this trip, I go, okay, great. So show up on the 10th by four in the afternoon in Saigon, ho Chi Minh City. Okay, that's it, there's. You know, you figured out, you're a grown man, figured out, be there by four o'clock in that day. So that's how we roll Then from there on that, that particular 10 days that we're overseas, let's say away from America. In other words, we've got that all lined out, get that all covered for you. But that's the thing. Show up, man, hang out with us, and, whether it's up in Pennsylvania, in Florida, california or Vietnam, love to see, love to hang out with you.

06:55
Write to me at paulatcmnmen. Paulatcmnmen with comments, dot men with comments, criticisms, and you can hold the criticisms down a little bit. But uh, you know, comments, criticism, uh, you know, uh, fix, fix stuff, things I've said, go. Hey, you know, that's that's not necessarily true or that's not who. I sent out an email once and I had a quote attributed to the wrong person and somebody wrote in and said now it was this other guy and I'm like, yeah, thank you. So it's good stuff, man. Lifetime learners right, we are lifetime learners, warriors for Jesus Christ. And remember this a warrior is not a man of war, he's a man of peace who understands that peace is always the result of strength.

07:41
Now here's a strong man, steve Trevino, today on Brave Men. Great to have you on Brave Men, steve and Steve. For those who don't know Steve, if you haven't met him in some of his events and meetings across the nation. Steve Trevino is a cultural radical, the nation. Steve Trevino is a cultural radical and I say that because you are about changing what's happening in our culture, where you and I live, in the United States, and in cultures around the world. You've planted hundreds of churches in the Middle East. You've been part of groups that planted churches across the nation and, of course, planted churches yourself and pastored in Texas, the great state of Texas and the great nation of Texas, maybe the Republic and founder of Disciple Global and man, you're just a guy who gets things done. How did? What motivates you? What's driving you in this stuff? Like you're trying to be famous? What's up? What motivates?

08:45 - Speaker 1
you? What's driving you in this stuff, like you're trying to be famous? What's up? Thank you so much, paul man, really grateful to be here. You know I love any chance that I get to to hang out with you. You know you've, uh you've, been a longtime friend and a and a hero of mine.

08:58 - Speaker 2
So I love you. Thanks for not saying, old friend An old friend.

09:03 - Speaker 1
You know, man, I got started in men's ministry when I was 25 years old. Wow, and you know, I was helping my dad pastor the church that he started, and what that means is basically, you know, when he didn't feel like preaching, he would ask me to preach, and and then he had a massive heart attack. Oh, that's right. Yeah, he had to. He had to have quadruple bypass surgery, and so, you know, he's a he's a Vietnam veteran, you know so. So he had his surgery done at Veterans Memorial Hospital in Houston, texas, and I walk in, you know, to the recovery room and my dad's there and he looks up at me and he says, son, I'm going to need you to take over the church. Wow, and the only thing I could think of in that moment was the church is in trouble.

10:01 - Speaker 2
Yes, we are in trouble, bro Dad you're in trouble in River City.

10:10 - Speaker 1
I didn't know a thing about being a leader, I didn't know a thing about making disciples, and so I felt like I was thrust into that moment, and so the only thing I could think of to do was pray. And so I got really intentional and really focused on prayer. I started going up to the church pretty regularly, but also on Saturday mornings, and it was just me. I would go into the sanctuary and, specifically, I was praying and I was asking God you know, what do I do to lead a church? What do I do to grow a congregation? How do I be a pastor? And that continued for, I would say, a period of a few months, and one day, while I was in prayer, I felt an impression from the Lord so strongly and it rocked me. Wow, and this is what I felt like the Lord said to, and and it rocked me, and this and this is what I, this is what I felt like the Lord said to me in that moment.

11:09
Uh, he, you know, um, I felt like God said disciple the men in your church. And I go, okay, I don't know what that means. And then this next one is what rocked me. He said teach men to die, wow, wow. And so what that started for me was this journey of discovering what it means to be a Luke 9 23 disciple that takes up the cross daily and follows Jesus. You know, I knew when the Lord spoke that to my heart, I knew exactly what that meant. It didn't mean that he was inviting us into physical death, but I knew that I needed to help men understand what it looks like to die to ourselves and to become servant leaders in our homes and pick up the cross. And pick up the cross in our daily life with our families, wow.

12:12 - Speaker 2
You know, okay, and when you're talking about family, you've got at this point. You've got two girls. Right, that's right. Where they had to have been babies at this point right, they were Yep, they were small babies. Yeah, so you got two daughters married, but you had already gone through Maximized Manhood prior to that right.

12:34 - Speaker 1
So this is what? Or did this precipitate this? Introduced me to Maximized Manhood. Okay, it was actually Doug Stringer in Houston, right? So Doug hands me this, this book, you know. So God had already given me the word disciple men, teach men to die, and, and I'm going all right, like what's the path. And not too long after that, doug Stringer puts maximize manhood in my, in my hand. And so, you know, I go to the men in the congregation and I go hey guys, why don't you join me on Saturday mornings? Let's pray and let's start thinking about what it would actually look like for the gospel to make us better husbands to our wives and better fathers to our children. So what you?

13:28 - Speaker 2
did, steve, was you invited the men of your church into your own pattern? You'd already been going Saturday morning. So quite often it seems like what we tend to do as leaders and pastors is we go okay, what can I get these men to do? And then we come up with something to go okay, well then I'll do it with them, rather than inviting them into the rhythm of our own lives, and maybe part of that is because we don't have a rhythm.

13:58 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great observation, you know, and and I would add to that that I didn't I didn't have it figured out. I was inviting them to go on this journey with me and I said, hey, let's figure this thing out together, let's see what it looks like for this thing to shape our lives.

14:20 - Speaker 2
The best way to get something started is to start Most men. To get something started is to start Most men. Most men do something started. They talk yeah, yeah and so. And so what happened over the next period of time?

14:37 - Speaker 1
So you know what started off with with, you know, just a handful of guys ended up growing to over a hundred men that were meeting, wow, and we were going through the curriculum, you know, and, uh, getting more books, and then so we had all these men in our, in our church, and it was a small church, you know when, when I took it over from my dad, there was probably, you know, 50 or 60 people, yeah, and so, you know, over the next couple of years, this thing really just started to explode and I didn't have enough volunteer positions in the church, you know. So I had all these guys and they were fired up, but I didn't know what to do with them.

15:20 - Speaker 2
In other words, you had more volunteers than you had positions. Exactly. That's a healthy problem, though, goodness.

15:28 - Speaker 1
Well, and it created, you know, a pretty great opportunity for us, and it was actually my wife's idea. You know, Julie came to me and she said, hey, why don't we go down to City Hall and let's go have a conversation with the mayor and let's find out what are the needs of the city? You know, um, maturity doesn't come with age, but with the acceptance of responsibility. Yeah, come on. And you know, one of the things that god had really started to stir in my heart was what would it look like to pastor a city and not just a church? And so part of that is looking around your community and identifying what are the biggest needs and then not sitting around and going all right now, who's going to meet those needs.

16:19 - Speaker 2
Or sitting in your church saying I hope everybody comes here. Sitting in your church saying I hope everybody comes here, rather than if you were. I mean, there's the word missional, which is it's got some great meanings to it, but being outward looking, I think I think basically what that is is generosity and loving Jesus so much you want people to know Jesus.

16:46 - Speaker 1
I mean, isn't that where church planting comes from? Yeah, you know, I think that it's the next logical step for what God is doing in the community. Yeah, and so, you know, we walked into the mayor's office and, you know, went up to a secretary and go hey, can we talk to the mayor? And she said, no, you can't talk to the mayor. That's not how this thing works. And you know we go oh well, you know, what do we got to do? And she said you know, what do you need? And we said, well, you know, we have a team of volunteers and we're ready to serve. Are there any needs that the city has? And she says, oh, you need to go down the hall, go see the volunteer coordinator. That's who you need to see.

17:32
So we, you know, we marched down the hall and we meet this lady sitting behind the desk and we go hey, you know, local church got some guys we want to serve. Do you have any projects that you can't get anyone else to do? We'll take them. And she goes oh well, there's this, you know, park down the street from your church that we can't seem to keep up with. Why don't you guys go in there and clean that up. And so I come back and I rally the guys and I go, hey, man, let's go take care of this park, let's go love our city. And so we go out there and we clean it up. And you know, I go back to city hall and I go, hey, what else you got for us? And so after about after about three or four rounds of that, you know, volunteer has given us all these random projects around the city. Uh, and then one day my phone rings and it's the mayor's office and they go, hey, the mayor wants to meet you. And I'm like, oh, now he wants to meet me.

18:30 - Speaker 2
This is how now, this is a man's gift. Makes room for him.

18:33 - Speaker 1
Yeah, and so we. So we go, so we go to the mayor's office and we walk in and he goes who are you guys Shoot? Who are you guys shoot? He said are you guys? Yeah, he said you guys have put in more volunteer hours than any other organization combined for the city and and the year is not even finished yet wow and um. And we just said, hey, we're just, we're just a group of guys that are, you know, letting j Jesus change our lives and we want our city to be better because we're here.

19:09 - Speaker 2
Man. What a difference maker, steve. This is really inspiring to all of us who are listening right now, and it really is. It motivates us to if you will just do the same thing. I mean every neighborhood that we live in, every place we live, I don't care if you live in the country. Wherever it is, there are needs that need to be met and I volunteered for a number of years at a it was this, it's called Grace Outreach here, but it was where they sold furniture, like people would give furniture and then the store would sell it.

19:49
And then I volunteered every Wednesday to I would take all the stuff that got dropped off and toss the stuff that you know kind of curated, you're right. And then this stuff needs to be fixed. This stuff's okay, it needs to be cleaned up. And then we stuff needs to be fixed, this stuff's okay, it needs to be cleaned up. And then we clean it up and stuff. But you know, it was amazing, uh, to see how that just little volunteer here, a little volunteer there, how people coming together changed the future for other people. It, you know what you did at that park just cleaning it up, probably helped a lot of people with, you know, maybe their kids getting, you know, getting time together, you know, that kind of thing. That's awesome man, that's motivating. So then what the mayor? Would happen next with the mayor?

20:36 - Speaker 1
Yeah. So, you know, the mayor says to us. He's like hey, we want to recognize you guys. You know, can you, can you come to the city council meeting? We want to give you an award, and so, and so we go, yeah, they actually, they, they, they actually, you know, they tried to get me to run for city council. Like that's where this thing ended up going. They wanted me to run for city council, but, um so, uh, the most, I think, unexpected thing that really came from that was I started to get phone calls and even letters from business guys in the community and they were seeing the work that we were doing.

21:17
And some of these guys were saying you know, I'm a member down here down the road of this church, but I really like the way that you're reaching men and I want to invest in it, you know. So here's a donation, wow. And. And so that was really unexpected. And so I started reaching out to these guys and going hey, thank you for your gift. You know, can, can we grab lunch? And? And then I would sit across from these guys and and learn that they wanted discipleship too. Yeah.

21:49
You know, and so um and so that opened up a whole different aspect of of being able to now start discipling uh business leaders, you know this.

21:58 - Speaker 2
This is really fascinating, Steve, uh talking with Steve Trevino who, uh, pastored for a number of years, planted churches and then has planted churches in the Middle East. And I want to get into the Middle East stuff because you and I have been to Egypt, you're going a number of times. You're planting churches, also taking Maximized Manhood in Arabic, across the Middle East. The work you did in Iran is Farsi, right and Farsi. But this brings up something to me about church life in that sense is that too often we think men are just too busy and we don't want to bother them, and and, uh, you know, uh, and so we grab a couple of guys and we go do a little thing maybe, but you, you found, you found out, if I'm not mistaken the men who were busy actually the guys who get stuff done. That's why they're busy yeah that's right.

22:59
Right. So you put into motion here's, here's a job we can all do together yeah, that's exactly right.

23:08 - Speaker 1
You know, it wasn't just guys that were sitting around going. You know, we, we want to sit in circles and talk about our feelings, kumbaya, you know, these were guys. These were guys who were going. Man, man, we want to make an impact, we want to make a difference.

23:25 - Speaker 2
I think most of us, as men, have that in us. We want to make a difference. It's just that we don't know how to do it. So it takes somebody like yourself, a man of vision, and then you know you've got, and I want to get into some of this stuff. But one other thing that really struck me about what you're saying is that you're mentoring. If you will, discipling men that are older than you, men that are in business, businesses you've never run. In that sense you later have run businesses and started them Because that man wasn't looking for wisdom on his business, he was looking for something for his own personal life. How do you approach that as a pastor when you're dealing with business people or high capacity men?

24:13 - Speaker 1
Yeah, I think the beautiful thing about the gospel is that we don't have to work the word. It's the word that does the work. Wow, come on, you know. And so, like I'm not selling these guys my own personal concepts and ideas, right, you know Like we're going. Hey, man, let's dive into the book that has literally changed the world. You know, christianity is the greatest movement in the history of the world. It's brought more impact and more transformation to society than any other movement, and so maybe it's got a few things that can impact our lives, and so let's just discover what that is, let's find out what that means for us, and then the word does the work. How do you?

25:04 - Speaker 2
start that with a, with a man that's in business. In other words, I'm thinking of a man who's like my neighbor Randy. You know he's. He was in working for somebody else and then he started his own business, right? So he's moving, he's cranked up, he's got stuff going on. How do you sit down and actually start that conversation, steve?

25:27 - Speaker 1
Yeah, well, you, you, actually you, you you just said it you sit down and you have a conversation. That's how you start it. You know, one of the things that you know get into this, because this is a great transition to the spiritual conversations piece. But one of the things that ended up happening for us was that one of the business guys that reached out to me he was an Iranian. He was a first generation Iranian living in Houston and he owned a chemical company. And he reached out to me one day and he says hey, I heard about what you guys are doing and how you're discipling men. And he said he said I have the leader of the underground church of Iran with me. Wow. He said I flew this guy in and would you be interested in having a meeting? And you know I'm a 28-year-old kid, you know, trying to figure out how to pastor a church and disciple men.

26:36
And I get introduced to a guy who is embedded in Iran, you know, leading the underground church. This is the in Iran. You know, leading the underground church. This is the first exposure that I ever had to the underground church. And so he arranges the meeting and this guy starts to share with me that people are coming to Jesus in Iran through dreams and visions and power encounters. Wow, and I'm just, I'm gripped by this.

27:06
Yeah, and so after the meeting with with with this guy you know we've met for about an hour I say to him I said, you know, I know we just met, but I feel like God wants me to run with you. I want to do something dangerous. I feel like a David without a Goliath. Yeah, so good, yeah. And he looks at me, paul, and he goes oh, you want to do something dangerous? And I go yeah, and he said well, you want to come to the Middle East? And this was a divine moment because this, it brought it full circle for me, the journey that I had been on.

27:51
But this guy literally looks at me and he goes would you come to the Middle East and teach my men to die? East, and teach my men to die. And remember, that was the word that God gave me three years before, which became the catalyst for the work that I was doing with my men in the local church. And now I have a global leader who is sitting across from me and he goes would you teach my men to die? And I go wait a minute. This is not the same thing Like I'm teaching my men to die and I go wait a minute. This is not the same thing like I'm teaching my men to die, like I'm telling, I'm teaching them how to you know, like, do the dishes instead of watching sports center, you know, yeah I actually which is, you know, quite, quite a death right.

28:35
But you know you're saying your guys, you guys can potentially like, actually die, and he goes, yeah, and then he tells me this, he tells me what's been going on and it's fascinating.

28:51
But what was going on at that time was John Maxwell has this group and I don't know if it's Equ or if it's, if it was the enjoy group, but um, I don't, and I don't know if they still do this or not, but um, they would go, they would organize these teams and they would go out and do leadership training and leadership Million leader mandate. So it was. So it was a part of that. Yeah, it was powerful. And so for about a year, maxwell's crew had been going out and doing leadership training and leadership development for the underground church and they were underwriting, you know, these entire conferences and it's a pretty significant price tag because you got to fly all of these guys out of Iran and into a country that's more safe and you got to, you know, secure all the meeting space and hotels and flights, and so lots of a lot of them can't fly direct.

29:47 - Speaker 2
They've got to go through somewhere else, Right yeah? And then come back, and then go back, and and you just yeah Over, you know you have to be really careful.

29:58 - Speaker 1
It's quite, quite's quite the investment. And so he tells me he said so my guys have all this, they have all this high level leadership stuff. And he said but I can't get anybody to be a leader Really. And I said why? And he said because when secret police raid a house church gathering, the first thing they ask is who's the leader? Who's the leader? Yeah? And he said no one, no one.

30:40
He said I'm struggling to get guys to in the Middle East with about 40 leaders of the underground church and for the next 10 days I just pour into those guys everything that I had been pouring into the guys in my local church and we had a powerful time and the Lord really united our hearts. And in the same way that you know I go to Egypt several times, you know I started going several times a year to different places around the world where we were having these gatherings and we were pouring into these leaders and and and the result was that men began to step up and men began to accept responsibility and it shifted the entire culture. Well, and and it and it ended up, paul, becoming the fastest growing movement of Christianity in that particular area, because you know the reported number of believers during that. So this is about 15 years ago. Yeah, the reported number of believers in Iran at that time was like a thousand Total. Yeah, total of believers in iran at that time was like a thousand total, yeah, total.

32:07
And you know we're talking about a country of 90 million people, and so now there's reported over a million believers. Yeah, so, percentage wise, this thing is the it's the it's the fastest growing movement yeah, it's the fastest growing.

32:20 - Speaker 2
it's the fastest growing underground church, if you will. You know China and you go on down the line, but it's amazing. The power of God, you know, begins to just. The revelation of Christ changes a man's thinking and all of a sudden he finds his identity in Christ and then he finds out that God's actually personal, not just some corporate, you know, governmental authority up there, you know, but he's actually our father, as Jesus taught us to pray. So it's you know, and so okay. So let me go back.

32:59
So you got to church and then your father had a heart attack, but he survived and ended up becoming healed. Right, that's right as well. He comes back. You move down to where Texas A&M is and plant a church there, right, yep, that's right. And so now you're doing this with kind of, if you will, planting a church based on growing, strong men yep and and, and also why, while I was planting that church, focusing on the work in the middle east, right, so I would divide my time between being here and pastoring a local church and then, you know, going to the Middle East and discipling leaders, and and so it was.

33:47 - Speaker 1
That was a really unique experience for me, because you know I would be in these meetings in the Middle East where you know we're going for eight, nine hours straight without a break eight, nine hours straight without a break, right, and people are leaning in and they're just hungry, uh, for you know, and just clinging to every word. And then you'd come back, you know, to the West and preach a sermon, and you know you're going 45, 50 minutes and people are getting restless Way too long.

34:16 - Speaker 2
Come on, man. Yeah, by the way, pastor, the air conditioning is not working exactly the way it should. I know man. By the way, pastor, the air conditioning is not working exactly the way it should. I know man, we're pretty fat, there's just no question about it, and we're pretty spoiled, you know.

34:30
The flip side of that is, the church in America has been one of the most generous churches in the world, giving to others, churches in the world, giving to others and in anywhere you go in the world, you find people who have planted churches out of the united states and been blessed. We've also exported a lot of crap, just frankly. We've exported a lot of uh yeah, don't do this. Well, you know, but we forgot to tell them don't do this. They just watch us do it. Oh, this is what you do. So now, what's your okay? So then we've got the Middle East stuff we're doing going to Egypt, all that. You've done all this stuff in Iran over the last couple decades, planted a church. You've also moved to the San Francisco area to be a domestic missionary yeah, almost said terrorist, but that wouldn't be right Domestic radical.

35:29
Depends who you ask. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's true, that's true. A domestic radical working with the urban areas there in the city and motivating churches. It's pretty remarkable what you and Julie are doing. Your daughters have grown, they're building their own careers, but why do you have such a passion for the Middle East? And what's your take on the Middle East now? Here we're doing this big thrust with Christian Men's Network in Arabic, fired up about having maximized manhood, and then other books in arabic to disciple men. But what's your take on on the middle east right now?

36:08 - Speaker 1
the middle east is. It's a, it's a, it's a hot bed for christianity and growth right now. You know, um, you've seen, it's almost like, it's almost like we have, um, two completely different, uh, experiences in the world. You know, when you travel to, to Western countries and you see the, you see the progress and you see the development, uh, you see the infrastructure, right, um's, you know, impressive and, and then, and then you can travel to other parts of the world and and it's almost the opposite of that. Yeah, and you know, and, and I've wondered often, you know why that is. You know why? Why do Western countries tend to have such advancements in economy and infrastructure? And one of the things that I realized was that it's because of the gospel. Christianity started in the Middle East and then it went into Europe, and then from Europe, it went across the pond and went into North and South America, and then from North and South America, it continued traveling and went into China, right, and went into China Right.

37:41
And you know we saw, you know, in the 80s and we saw this explosive growth of Christianity in Asian countries, some of the largest churches in the world, right, right. And you've seen some of those and you're a part of some of those. Some of those are part of our Christian men's network. Right, right. And then the gospel continued, and now it's in the Middle.

38:10 - Speaker 2
East.

38:10 - Speaker 1
So now it's come back to the Middle East and just how ironic that is that now the gospel has come full circle and it's coming back to infiltrate the place where it began.

38:23 - Speaker 2
Yeah, it's amazing, you know, when our trips to Egypt, when we take our trips to Egypt, I think of Joseph, you know, the stepfather of Jesus, and taking his family and having to run for their lives, essentially for three or four years and settling in Egypt for an amount of time, and then the things that happened out of there and, if you will, the Roman Catholic Church has started out of Alexandria, and the basis you know, and this is a country that I mean you go way back the pharaohs, the ph Pharaohs. They called them gods back in the day. So when Moses goes in front of Pharaoh and declares God, you know when others did this, when Joseph, you know, had his interpretation of dreams and he talked about God, whereas he's talking to who they equated as a god, and I think of Egypt and I think of man. What a remarkable time for a renewal of faith to happen, yeah, in that place that has such background. Right, it's amazing the things that happen there. And now here we are with Christian Men's Network and Discipling Men and the response has been fantastic. It's been really, really powerful and God's led us to men like our great friend Ferris, abraham and Nethi and many others that are just doing the stuff. They're already doing the things. We've got 70 men who have already graduated from Maximized Manhood just in Cairo.

40:03
Hey, let me ask you another thing, because you've got a teaching you do steve on finding the man of peace and and we're talking about the middle east, going to the middle east you've got great hope for the middle east. Uh, you get up there. You get up there and speak. You have such great authority and pulpit presence there. When you've done the things. You've actually done an intensive where for two days, you were with 120 pastors and walked them through this whole thing and then how to identify that lead man.

40:34
You know, if I'm a men's leader, I'm looking for help, right. If I'm a pastor, I'm looking for the right guy. I'm looking for help, right. If I'm a pastor, I'm looking for the right guy. And too often I think what we do is we just look for the guy who's just kind of around, you know, like Gary in the hallway. It's like hey, man, what are you doing? Nothing, oh, you want to help us with this men's stuff. And I've usually found that the man who's doing nothing usually does nothing. Yeah, it looks like he could do something.

41:11 - Speaker 1
Maybe there's a reason he has so much availability.

41:14 - Speaker 2
Maybe he's available because he's not doing anything. But tell me about that whole thing. How do I find that man?

41:37 - Speaker 1
And how do I move him into that? What you did with those'm excited about the church in the Middle East and I absolutely am like what God is doing in those countries. What we're seeing happen in Egypt is just it's, it's phenomenal, right, and so I'm so grateful that we're able to to take a group of guys out and you know, if any of your listeners ever have an opportunity to go on one of these trips, like man you know, make that happen, because to see firsthand what the Lord is doing, it's so powerful. But but you know a little analogy if, if, if I may, you know, think about, think about, um, you know an existing church that's been around for a while Maybe it's become a little bit stagnant, and then all of a sudden, god begins to move in in the youth and the young adults of that church, wow, and the youth and the young adults catch fire and it ends up shifting the entire culture of the of the church and and it just revitalizes the church as a whole.

42:37
Yeah, so if you think about Christianity being so young, even though it's where it started in the Middle East, it's still very young, and so, as you see, this move of God that's happening and these new believers that are coming to Jesus. They're bringing an excitement and a fervor and a devotion yeah, devotion that what I see the Lord doing is. You know, he's moving us away from this idea of church in the East, church in the West, and making us one church, one body. You know, and because you're right, the American church has been so extremely generous, like we have fueled, you know, the modern mission movement in the world today, and and and and so the, the, the, the, the model has has, you know, for the last hundred years or so, has been like the West to the rest. And then what we're seeing is all of that investment, all of that time, all of those resources are now starting to yield incredible fruit. And, guess what, the American church is a little tired.

43:47 - Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. So I think James Davis said he said for years it was the West went to the rest, and now the best is coming to the West.

43:55 - Speaker 1
So so in that? Isn't that, um, I think, a unique opportunity and time in history to see? And so the man of peace principle is exactly one of these situations, Because here's what has happened in the Middle East and one of the reasons that Christianity is growing so rapidly in countries where it's actually dangerous to be a follower of Jesus.

44:24 - Speaker 2
Right.

44:26 - Speaker 1
What is that? So, yeah, hit that. And so part of that is that those, the people who become Christians, are not nominal Christians. When you make a decision to follow Jesus, there's a cost, you know, and, and you're not. You're not becoming a cultural Christian, you're not a third, fourth, fifth generation Christian Right, and so Christianity for you is something that you have. You have accepted personal responsibility for joining God in his mission here on Earth.

45:04
Wow, you know what? Do you think the? The, the greatest opposition For the Great Commission is today. You know, sometimes we think the greatest opposition for the great commission is, you know, the? Uh. Is Islam, maybe it's, maybe it's it's. You know, um, a radical left agenda. You know, um, maybe it's it's um. You know, uh, there's a number of, there's a number of of labels that we tend to to to say this is, this is really the? The, the darkness, really the darkness of the world, and these are the things that are hindering the gospel from spreading, whether it's socialism or any kind of ideology that doesn't line up with scripture. But the reality is, the greatest opposition to fulfilling the Great Commission are Christians, wow, christians that are more committed to their comfort and their convenience than they are to fulfilling the call to reach the lost. Wow, and so in the Middle East, what you see is you have believers who have accepted personal responsibility for fulfilling the Great Commission.

46:24 - Speaker 2
Courage and character. They are developing from the inside out courage and character, and too often what we do in our more comfortable settings is we let our environment define us. Hey, look at this, we got a nice you know church thing going. We're pretty good. We show up, you know, two out of four Sundays we're good. Yeah man, that's selfish, bro. That's so lay down selfish.

46:57 - Speaker 1
But you know it's, it's, it's been birthed out of, out of necessity, Um, because they don't, they don't have, they don't they, they don't have the luxury of having a Sunday morning centric model, Right. So when they go.

47:13
so when they go, hey, we want to, we want to reach our city and we want to reach our nation. Their mind doesn't go to. Let's do really good Sunday morning church services so that we can attract our city, because they don't have that option. Yeah, so when they, when they go, hey, we're going to reach our city they're not thinking about a come and see model, they're thinking about a go and find model.

47:37 - Speaker 2
Wow, you just said it, right there, man.

47:42 - Speaker 1
So here's what has happened. What has happened is, in these countries, if you attempt to share the gospel with the wrong person, you could end up arrested or worse. Yeah, so, wow, so, so, so. Christians in dangerous nations, nations and in some of the specific countries that you know, we've been a part of and we've been training folks. They've been trained on how To discern and how to identify those who are spiritually receptive. So it starts with having conversations. So it starts with having conversations. Wow, you can't have a spiritual conversation with someone if you don't have a conversation with someone.

48:32 - Speaker 2
Yeah, it doesn't start there.

48:34 - Speaker 1
Yeah, it starts with relationship, absolutely, and you know so, relationship, which is access, which is proximity, yeah, very good. So there's this passage in Matthew 10 where Jesus is sending the 72, and he's sending them into the towns and the villages where he's about to go. So this is an evangelism strategy, right, all right, yep. And and one of the things that Jesus says to his disciples he goes I want you to go into the towns and villages and I want you to find those who are worthy. Wow, which is a really interesting way to way to to say that, because we don't tend to think well, you know, we think everyone's worthy, right, of course, who who wouldn't be worthy?

49:33
Um, but that word worthy Jesus says go and find those who are worthy in the, in the Greek, that word is axios, okay, and it's where we get our word axis from. Like the earth is spinning on an axis, yeah, and it's tilted. The earth is on an axis and it's tilted toward the sun. So, if you think about it, what Jesus is saying is go into the towns and villages and find the ones who are tilted toward the sun. So, if you think about it, what Jesus is saying is go into the towns and villages and find the ones who are tilted toward the sun, find the ones that are already leaning in.

50:14
Yeah, and so what I tell people is Jesus is for everyone, the gospel is for everyone, salvation is for everyone, but you're not for everyone. You know, sometimes people aren't rejecting the gospel, they're rejecting you. There are specific people around us, where we live, work and play, that God has already prepared their hearts. You know, evangelism evangelism isn't something that I do, it's it's something that I discover, like who are the ones that God is already doing the work in he's?

50:53
already prepared their hearts. So I can't, you know the. The goal isn't for me to to run around convincing people. The goal is for me to run around and find who has the spirit already convinced.

51:08 - Speaker 2
Wow. So it's not like me grabbing some people and trying to slam them in the arc. That's right. At least you're in. You may be upset. You don't know what's going on. What's going on.

51:24 - Speaker 1
You're tipped over. I used to think, man, what's the worst that could happen If I share the gospel with somebody who isn't ready to receive it? What's the worst that could happen? Maybe it gets a little awkward, maybe there's a disruption in our relationship, maybe I get ridiculed a little bit, but no biggie, right. But then I realized that's actually not the worst that could happen. You know what? The worst that could happen is what? That you actually push someone further away. Oh, my goodness, yeah, wow, and so. And so the idea of going OK, who are the people around me? You know, because Jesus says I'm sending you. Okay, that's the definition of an apostle is a sent one. So they weren't just, they weren't picking random villages and places where they just felt like, hey, let's go here. No, jesus goes, I'm sending you Unless they got shipwrecked.

52:24
There were a couple of those. There were a couple of those, yeah, and then it's like hey all bets are off. Good luck.

52:31 - Speaker 2
Right, yeah, the thing is, we're sent, sent ones yeah.

52:34 - Speaker 1
So, so, so it's it's, it's it's being able to to, to take the time to hear from the Lord. Where am I being sent? Who are the ones that you, that you are calling me to have an influence and an impact on? Who are the ones that are going to receive me right? So these are the towns and villages where I want to go. So you guys go before me and then he says to them go and go up to people and say peace, be unto you.

53:15 - Speaker 3
And if the peace rests upon them then stay with them.

53:16 - Speaker 1
If it doesn't rest upon them, then leave. So Jesus says go, and then you know, of course, peace is shalom, which is a Hebrew greeting. Like it's just a greeting, that's all it is. Jesus says I want you to go in the towns and villages and just say hi to people. Go to the towns and villages and have a conversation and find out who the ones that the peace rests upon.

53:47 - Speaker 2
You know this is. This is when we talk about leadership in a local church and again I'm coming back to here I am a men's leader. Uh, you know, I'm trying to do something, you know powerful in my church, trying to build something up. I'm looking for help. A pastor Really there is.

54:07
There has to be a Holy Spirit component in which I say, hey, here's a, here's a man, you know, and I think there's something on this guy, I think there's something on this person. And and we have to be able to say, lord, you know, give me a witness in my spirit, give me something in me that witnesses to this man's life. And then we find that man and say, okay, this is, you know, this is a guy and I may have to train him, may have to help shape him, he may have to become something. He's not right now. But it's sort of like when we talk about fatherhood, the spirit of a father on something, the spirit of a father basically reaches into the heart of the next generation, pulls out their future and shows it to them. And so what we're doing with a man is basically saying there's something in you. I can sense it in the spiritual realm, I sense something here. There's something in you and I'm going to help it become what it needs to be.

55:19
You turn your mic back on there. We go Boom, you know. So that, to me, is that whole thing you're talking about really takes it beyond. Hey, what's the guy supposed to look like? You know what's his background supposed to be? I mean, you look at some of the people that Jesus chose and you go dude, I don't think that's the right guy. Yeah, I don't think that's the right guy yeah.

55:46
I don't think that's the right guy. And and you look at, like even some of the disciples and Paul, of course, with Mark and so forth, you know they had issues, struggles, back and forth. People had to be trained, people had to learn, people tipped over they, they made mistakes and uh like, even like Galatia, you know where Paul says, hey, not a good idea to drink too much wine when you're doing communion. You know, when you're doing the sacraments, this is not a good thing. And so, over and over, there's this training component and I think that's what sometimes we're looking for something ready made. We're looking for a guy to show up who's already cleaned up. Well, what is it? What's that old line steve about? Uh, we tend to look for, we tend to clean fish before we catch them.

56:37 - Speaker 1
Yeah, you know yeah and I think that, and I think it's an I think it's, it's, it's an art form of of being able to find dude, that's a good way to put it who the men are. Yeah, that are ready. You know, god loves people more than we do, way more than we do. God wants to see people saved way more than we do. So he's already done the heavy lifting, he's gone before us, he's prepared the heart.

57:27
You know, a man could be on a decades long journey of running from God and the Lord pursuing him, and and those and those men are all around us, yeah and so, and so it takes patience, it takes discernment, it takes a willingness to you know, and this is why the conversations piece is so important, because the only way you're going to find out who these guys are is by having conversations with them.

57:54 - Speaker 2
Man, you are just. You just nailed it and it's what you're good at and it, but it's also what you've learned to do, right, but it's also what you've learned to do Right. I mean, you had to learn this as a 26, 27 year old who, pretty much at that point in your life, you want to just get stuff done, but you had to sit and have the conversations.

58:16 - Speaker 1
So what I look for is I look, I look for the God need, I look for a conversation, you know so. So we have this thing, thing that we, that we that we teach our, our disciple makers and our field workers, you know, we call it the conversation roadmap, okay. So if you're so, if you're talking with someone, um, and you're thinking about this conversation, it starts as a very simple conversation and then it transitions into a serious conversation and then it moves into a serious conversation and then it moves into a spiritual conversation, and so, if that happens, your antennas are up because you're going god, god, god is maybe doing something here, right, you know, because it's. You know, it's not normal to start off a conversation talking about the weather and then it transitions into I have a bad marriage yeah or probably one of my kids.

59:09
But if that happens, it might be because the holy spirit has prepared this. Something's moving, something's moving, yeah, and so you're listening, and you're paying attention, and and you're, and you're listening for what? What? For what's the need that only God can meet?

59:27
in this person's life and if that comes to the surface, then you have an opportunity to then. Then it transitions into a serious conversation where, where you know, they say you know, they start talking about marriage problems and issues that they're having personal, personal, personal then I can say, um, you know what there's? There's very few things in the world that can make you feel, uh, worse than when you have problems in your marriage. What did Dr Cole say? It's closest thing to heaven and hell. Yeah.

01:00:08
Right. Marriage, yeah, it could be the closest thing to heaven, or it could be the closest closest thing to hell, right. But and so, man, I know what you feel like. I've been there, trust me, I've been there. But you know there were some things that I learned, that they changed everything for me and now I have the best marriage that I've ever had, and it's surprisingly simple, the things that I learned. And then you shut up because you want to see. Do they take the bait? Yeah, do they invite you in? Are they interested? Are they receptive? Yeah, because some guys are not. I've had those conversations with guys and they just completely transition into sports.

01:01:02 - Speaker 2
Yeah, the wall goes down, they go well good. Hey, what about that Warriors game?

01:01:09 - Speaker 1
Exactly, and then. But then you have the guys who go you know, Dude, I need whatever. I don't know what it is that you're talking about, but I sure do need something.

01:01:18 - Speaker 2
Yeah, well, that's it and that's finding that man of peace. You know, I think that's. You know, when we talk about leadership, it is the willingness to die to self, because to be a servant leader is to love others, even, even at the expense of yourself, and so I don't know, there's probably better words than servant leader. I've seen a lot of people have discussion about it, and you know, but the fact is is that the fact is we're called. Jesus came to serve, but he's also a king. So we're called to be those who help change culture for others. We're called to bring Christ into the center of culture in every place we go, into the center of culture in every place we go.

01:02:06
Hey, I've been talking with Steve Trevino, who is a director. Actually, he's a whole lot of things. He's a cultural navigator, he's an urban radical, I don't know what else. We want to call you Heads up Discipleship Global, and so you've got all these things. But what I'm thrilled with, steve, that we're partnering together in the middle east and you're one of our lead trainers with christian men's network.

01:02:34
You have a remarkable ability to make complex things simple. I think, uh, a lot of guys uh, have a remarkable ability to take simple things and make them complex, which is what I think half the pulpit guys in America seem to do. They can take real simple, make it complex, which then keeps their job, which is why you keep going back to therapy over and over and over. So the fact is, you're doing it and, uh, you're doing, and I thank God for Julie and your family and those who pray for you and and are part of that, and you guys have moved into San Francisco area in order to be urban, uh, culture changers and to help men reform who they are in Christ. So, uh, you know, this has been a great conversation, man. Anything, anything you need to add right now that that you were thinking about and you go. Hey, I needed to hit this deal.

01:03:34 - Speaker 1
Not really, but you know, I think it's. I think it's helpful to say that in that whole piece where Jesus was sending out the 72, we can't forget that famous line that he tells them. He says I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves, yeah, and or like lambs among wolves, yeah. And so this idea of that, in order to start men's ministry, that you have to have everything figured out, to start men's ministry, that you have to have everything figured out and you know, you have to maybe even be at a certain stage of of spirituality in your own life where where you feel like you know you have everything together, jesus would say lead from your vulnerability. Wow, you know, I'm pretty sure a lamb doesn't feel very confident around wolves. Pretty sure there's some vulnerability there there's some danger there.

01:04:34 - Speaker 2
Nor do they have their act together.

01:04:36 - Speaker 1
And they don't have it all together, but the Lord meets them in that place and something pretty incredible can happen when we are willing to step in as lambs among wolves.

01:04:50 - Speaker 2
So good man. Thank you for being with us on Brave Men, Steve. It's a blessing and looking forward to the years ahead in the Middle East, planting churches, restoring the hearts of men, seeing Jesus Christ honored, lifted up, and a renewal. In fact, I don't know if you want to call it an awakening revival, whatever you want to call it, but I just see the lives and hearts of men changing by, the hundreds of thousands across the Middle East. And Ishmael's mom, you know, had this. She's the only one who had a promise over her and you know so.

01:05:32
I just believe that that promise is going to come to pass. I believe there's going to be this incredible spiritual renewal. I believe Jesus comes back, comes back. My hope is in the providence of God that when Christ returns, he returns for a powerful, strong, robust church that lifts up the name of Jesus all over the world. Doesn't mean they're going to go through all the best times to get there. It's not going to be easy. A lot of work, A lot of difficulty, but Christ will be honored, Amen, Amen. Well, thank you.

01:06:04 - Speaker 1
Paul will be honored. Amen, amen. Well, thank you, paul, love you. Thanks for the opportunity. That was awesome.

01:06:13 - Speaker 4
Brave Men is a production of Christian Men's Network, a global movement of men committed to passionately following Jesus on the ground in over 100 nations worldwide. You can receive the Brave Men motivational email, find books and resources for discipleship and parenting at cmn.men. That's cmn.men. Your host has been Paul Louis Cole, president of Christian Men's Network, and if you haven't yet, please make sure you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast wherever you find podcasts or download it. Thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you next time on Brave Men.