Fred Ichniowski on Boxing, Mentoring and Transformative Leadership

00:12 - Speaker 1
Hi, this is Paul Louis Cole. You're listening to the Brave Men Podcast, fired up today. Fred Ichniowski what a great guy to talk to. I mean, really, we could have talked a long time but we hit some really major things. Fred's a consultant, deals with top-level leadership around the world, but his conversation with his eight-year-old son probably rocked me more than anything else we talked about. He's also a boxing commentator Fascinating little sidebar conversation about boxing, some of the things that are fun about that and interesting.

00:51
But this man, I believe that some of the things he is sharing oh, the whole thing he talked about about the coach and the mentor, the whole difference yeah, that's going to be one you're going to want to take notes on. Difference, yeah, that's going to be one you're going to want to take notes on. And also, I've got in my hand Maximize Manhood in Arabic. We just returned from the Middle East and Maximize Manhood We've got over 50 men's groups meeting now in Arabic across Egypt and then into Jordan, across Egypt and then into Jordan, sudan, other parts. It was remarkable having one man stand up at one of the meetings we had. Now we will tell you the meetings were outrageous because they don't normally do this. They don't normally have ministry to men, there's not normal discipleship. It just hasn't been part of, if you will, the DNA of most churches. There are a few that are really strong, but by and large they just didn't have a pattern and a pathway articulated for discipling men. So this thing just rocked everybody's world Last October. I know I told you there's one guy that stood up. I'll tell you about that in a second. But last October Steve Trevino and our partner Ferris Abraham went into Egypt, did training sessions, just knocked it out of the park and we saw the response to that and the fruit of that seed that was sown in October.

02:24
This last time, when we were there, one pastor got up. He's down from the Red Sea area of Egypt and he stood up and he said you know, I took the training with Trevino and Ferris Abraham. He said I was here for the two days, did the intensive, and then I went back and he said I started. I wasn't sure what was going to happen, but I started. He said one group led to another group. Now I have three groups and it has energized our church. It is, if you will, transformed the DNA. He could not say enough. It was an amazing testimony.

02:59
We had a half dozen men like that. We also had over 150 men on the stage who had completed the first course in Maximize Manhood and really I want to say thank you to you for being a part of what we do with Christian Men's Network, cmnmen cmnmen Not only can you be a part by donating financially, which puts us into key places around the world. These men, they can't fund their own thing. We funded tens of thousands of dollars to get there. Thank you to everybody who was a part of that and thank you to you for being a part of that. Remember, when you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast, you help put us in front of more men. The whole algorithm thing works if we work it. So subscribe, tell somebody else about it and be a part of what we're doing with Brave Men. Go to cmnmen for all the tools and resources you need for discipling your family, for discipling men and for growing a strong church, because strong men make strong families. Strong families make strong churches. That's why we do what we do, that's why we were in the Middle East and that's why we're committed to being there day to day for the years ahead, and thank you to you for being a part of that.

04:22
Hey, here's Fred in a really a powerful conversation. You're going to love this guy. You're going to love this time with Fred Iconowski Speaking with Fred Iconowski. And Fred, you've been a business consultant, you've mentored people, you've coached people. We're going to get into that in a minute. All right, the difference is All right, the differences All right. But, uh, but one of your big claim to fame things is you are a commentator for boxing right, like that's part of your deal.

05:01 - Speaker 2
Did you get hit enough times Is?

05:02 - Speaker 1
that what happened what? What happened Like you you got hit a bunch of times. That what happened, what happened Like you got hit a bunch of times that I might as well take a boxing or how do you? End up doing that.

05:10 - Speaker 3
When I was a young guy, my dad worked two, three jobs, bryce, when I was growing up. He's gone a lot and I have two brothers the three of us are less than three years apart. So we did everything together and I have two brothers, the three of us are less than three years apart. So we did everything together and my mom and dad were, you know, important to us. But you know, I wanted to connect with my dad and he was gone a lot.

05:33
But when there was boxing on TV or even radio, then, because you know I'm an old guy, back in the day, back in the day, man, we used to listen to it. Back in the day, back in the day, man, we used to listen to it. And when I was a real young guy I really, because that was one of those connections with my father I really started enjoying the sport and I can remember the first title fight I ever watched. Who was it? Who was it? It was Roberto Duran and he fought a guy named Kenny Buchanan, who was a Scottish guy, and Duran beat him and won his first championship. It was 19—.

06:08 - Speaker 1
Was it—yeah, wow, when was that? It was 1972. Was that Duran Fists of Steel? Was that his— Hands of Stone, hands of Stone that was one of those You're close.

06:21 - Speaker 3
So I really started following the sport then and I I fooled around with getting in it. But I had a lot of friends of mine who were like golden gloves champions in Arkansas when I was living there and I I ran a gym for a while and I used to mess around with them and they just slapped me around like nobody's business.

06:43 - Speaker 1
It's like I better be a commentator.

06:45 - Speaker 3
I better do something else.

06:48 - Speaker 1
I love it. I love it, but I'm going to comment, I'm going to just talk about it.

06:53 - Speaker 3
Yeah, you know I, I've been doing that on and off for gosh. Yeah, what's the plus years?

07:01 - Speaker 1
What's the best title fight you ever saw?

07:04 - Speaker 3
Oh, my goodness, um, um, wow, there's almost too many. You know this one is not the best fight, but it's the one I got the most gratification from and it was when george foreman recaptured the heavyweight title at age 45 against Michael Moore and George was taking a beating. And I really had a kinship with George because, you know, god took over George's life and George had lost to Evander Holyfield trying to win a championship and everybody said you know, this was just Michael Moore was making some money and George was a big name and at 45 years old, in the 10th round, after taking a beating, george knocked him out and I'll never forget. My wife was upstairs asleep and it was after midnight and I ran through the house yelling and screaming and I bolted through the door and I shook her and woke her up to tell her and the look on her face was not an excitement level championship, it was. Are you out of your mind? What are you doing?

08:13 - Speaker 1
You know, one of the one of the greatest fights I ever saw, and this is back in the day, so now. So you would know this. This is back in the late seventies and it was, uh, we used to. If you wanted to watch it closed circuit, you had to go to a closed circuit. You, like, went to a place.

08:29 - Speaker 3
Absolutely.

08:30 - Speaker 1
So I'm in a closed circuit like arena. I think it was in Anaheim, california, and so it was the Anaheim Convention Center or something. There must have been seven or 8,000 crazy screaming guys there. I remember turning to my buddy and say nobody ever ought to attack America, because we'll come out of here and just and it was Leon Spinks and Muhammad Ali.

08:53 - Speaker 3
Oh, I remember it Well, the first one, or the second one?

08:57 - Speaker 1
you know what? It was the first one where Spinks actually Leon beat him, won the fight. Yeah, he's shocked. Yeah yeah, I mean we went for the undercard, we were there for the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, but that's an amazing thing to be a part of that. So when you came to Christ, were you part of boxing, or what was happening in your life at that point? And then, all of a sudden, there's this change.

09:24 - Speaker 3
At that point I had met my wife. I was in college. Actually, I was a failing student in college. I really didn't have very much direction.

09:35 - Speaker 1
Well, college dropouts rule the world, so nonetheless.

09:38 - Speaker 3
Well, you know what, maybe I would have been ruling the world a little earlier. I was just a horrible student, really. You know, I didn't have much happening in my life and I met my wife and she gave me some direction. In fact she laughs because she said she doesn't remember this. Now she says she does, but years ago she said I don't remember doing that. I actually was put on academic probation at the college I was at when I first met her and we were planning on. We knew each other for a few weeks.

10:14
I couldn't believe this Christian girl hooked up with this guy that she had no reason to hook up with and we planned on getting married. Like within six months we were married and just before we got married I got word that I was basically academic probation out of school and she came to me and she said listen, god's got bigger plans for you and I'm not going to be married to a loser because God has plans for you. Do you understand, buddy? And I faced this little five foot 205 pound woman, scared to death, and I said okay, and God started infiltrating into my life at that time and my mother-in-law presented me with my first Bible and I said I don't need this, I don't want this. And she said no, honey, there's hope in here.

11:11
So I want you to have this and it is actually Paul, my most treasured possession, because she was my wife, was one of five daughters and the old, the, the. The spread between them, I think, was 26 years.

11:28 - Speaker 1
Oh, my goodness.

11:29 - Speaker 3
So her oldest sister was actually older than my parents.

11:33 - Speaker 2
Yeah.

11:34 - Speaker 3
So her mother. When I met her mother, her mother was in her mid sixties and we were in our early twenties, so the Bible she gave me had been her Bible for a long time and her, her handwriting is in there and no come on man. She had had a stroke and her you know her handwriting and I'm tearing up because it's my most prized possession.

12:00 - Speaker 1
And so so she gives you a Bible and you're like, okay, if I want to keep this relationship with this girl, I got to figure this thing out.

12:10 - Speaker 3
Oh well, you know what? My wife always knew that the Holy Spirit was going to get a hold of me and God had plans for me. And we were married a year before I got baptized. So she can give up on me. She knew God had a plan and I remember I got baptized. So she she can give up on me. She knew God had a plan and I remember where I got baptized in a little Creek in Ashflat, arkansas. That's where my wife came from, population 368 when I met her and the plan was I was going to maybe get baptized in the little church of Christ there.

12:49
And down by the creek side and I'm with family and I'm with one of my brother-in-laws and I said, man, I'm really feeling the Holy Spirit as I would interpret the Holy Spirit moving on me. I think I really need to get baptized. And I said, maybe we'll call the pastor there at the church, maybe tomorrow, and he goes hey, buddy, we ain't waiting.

13:11 - Speaker 1
Yeah.

13:11 - Speaker 3
Right now, this moment, let's go. And I said really. He said let's do it. So we walked from the bank out into the little creek. And he took the dunk buddy and my life changed from there.

13:26 - Speaker 1
So Ash Flatt, that's A-S-H Ash Flatt. Yes, so then yeah I just wanted to make sure I had that right. So you grew up, but you didn't grow up in Arkansas. No, you ended up there because of your wife.

13:40 - Speaker 3
Yeah, I was born in Chicago, lived there until I was five or six, moved to Kalamazoo, michigan, lived there for five or six years and then my father was working for a company and he was transferred to Fort Smith, arkansas and we thought we were going to the tip of Africa. I mean to go from the upper Midwest thing to Fort Smith. The only knowledge we had of Fort Smith Arkansas was True Grit. Remember the John Wayne version?

14:12 - Speaker 1
of True Grit.

14:13 - Speaker 3
That came out and the movie started in Fort Smith, arkansas, so we got word that we were going to be moving there. So we went as a family to the outdoor theater to see True Grit To get a reference point.

14:31 - Speaker 1
Oh yeah, man, we had to have a reference point.

14:33 - Speaker 3
So he's in Fort Smith, arkansas, and he goes across the Arkansas River into the Indian Territory and there's these giant mountains. Well, that was Colorado.

14:46 - Speaker 1
Giant mountains, well, that was Colorado when we got to Fort Smith and we went across the Arkansas River into the Indian territories there ain't no mountains. Well, there is the Cayamichi Wilderness, but it's not really mountains.

14:59 - Speaker 3
So anyway, the magic of movies, we ended up there and I ended up, you know, going to college in Arkansas, the University of Central Arkansas, and met my wife and really everything from there is where God started, you know, using me and utilizing me, which was awesome, and my wife got me through school. I told you, man, I was a washout and she, the last two years I was in school I got a. You know, I had a B average which for me through school, I told you, man, I was a washout and she, the last two years I was in school I got a. You know, I had a B average which for me was giant and everything came from that.

15:33 - Speaker 1
I saw a B once and my best grade in college was withdraw passing. It was a, I don't know.

15:44 - Speaker 3
I had a lot of withdraws and dropped.

15:47 - Speaker 1
Here I am working on my second doctorate, but my best grade in college was withdraw, passing. So so you've been a coach, a mentor, but you've been in business. You've helped numerous businesses grow. You've been from outreach to family bookstores Tim Tebow Foundation. What were those assignments? Were those all? Basically helping people grow. Is that part of what you do then?

16:15 - Speaker 3
I want to preface that and I'll make it quick where I spent the first 20 plus years of my life, and I would call it the secular world. It's not bad, it's just that's what I did it was. It was a general market piece and I helped companies grow there. I was part of the team that started Barnes and Noble bookstores, which was really it was really a great learning experience.

16:39
I was too young for what I had to do, but it was a great learning experience and I tried. Actually, it was there that God said I want you to get involved in ministry business and I'll never forget my, my one of my best friends and I still best friends after 30 plus years great Christian guy. We were in a Barnes and Noble store and we saw a questionable book. Paul and we both had little kids. Then Our kids were little and he looked at me and I looked at him and he said man, our kids can come in here and look at this. So I said you know, I need to do something. So I reached out to the Lord and I started applying for roles in Christian retail companies and it took me six years to have someone talk to me. Wow, because it was a closed market. And I said to myself Lord, if you ever open up the opportunity for me to get into that marketplace, I'm going to open up that opportunity for people. That it took me a long time to do and I did that?

17:45 - Speaker 1
Where did you learn your center of morality? Did that come from your father? Did it come because you were I remember we were talking a bit ago about you were you grew up in a Catholic church? Where did that center of morality come? Or was it sort of not there for a while and then, when you became a follower of Christ, it just kicked in. You know where do you think that came from, fred, as you think about this, it was a combination of things.

18:07 - Speaker 3
I think it was a combination of how I was raised. I mean, my dad was a really rough guy. He was very rough, but he didn't even realize the Christian foundation that he had till much later in life.

18:25 - Speaker 1
So he had ethics. Oh my gosh, did he have ethics.

18:28 - Speaker 3
Listen, man, the family was everything and you worked. You know, I told you one of my earlier, one of my scriptures, that's foundation is Proverbs 11, 29. He who troubles his own family will inherit the wind. I saw my father have a work ethic that said when you want something, it's your responsibility to get it, it's nobody else's responsibility. So if you want it, you work hard for it and you get it, and you take care of the family no matter what. And you know, raised in a parochial school environment.

18:59 - Speaker 1
But you saw that in your dad.

19:01 - Speaker 3
Oh, I absolutely saw that.

19:04 - Speaker 1
Probably part of the greatest generation, wasn't he?

19:06 - Speaker 3
He was. He was part of the greatest generation. Now, it was interesting. He never served in the military. His father wouldn't allow him. He was between World War II and Korea and he tried to get into the military at 16 or 17. His father, who was a Marine in World War II, wouldn't allow him to do it. But he was a self-educated man constantly reading. I'm a voracious reader and I got that from my father because he was self-educated. He never finished high school and he was always reading and I would always say to him, especially as a teenager go to bed, man, it's 1130.

19:42
What are you reading? And he would say well, son, nobody's going to educate you but yourself and growing up. Paul, this is interesting. Every gift giving time, holiday, let's say it would be the three would be Christmas, Easter and birthday. Part of we always got a book along with whatever else we got, because you had to educate yourself.

20:08 - Speaker 1
Yeah, Wow. So your dad had this center. Even though he didn't necessarily teach you the Bible, he had this ethical center he did. And then you grew up in a parochial school, which means it was a Catholic based.

20:19 - Speaker 3
Yes, it was Catholic school very high discipline. It was catholic school very high discipline.

20:27
Those were the days when you got whacked over the knuckles with rulers, hair pulled and I just but you know what it was. It was a disciplined environment and it forged who I was. And when we were speaking earlier, I told you I didn't know christ as I've known him over the last 40 plus years, but I knew he was real and I absolutely knew he was real and he existed. And when I finally opened myself up and it was an opening I had to open myself up to that, but when I did, it just poured in. But when I did, it just poured in.

21:04 - Speaker 1
What was that tipping point between where you just go, you know what? I have got to have something here. What was the tipping point? What was that moment?

21:14 - Speaker 3
Usually there's some crisis, oh there wasn't a crisis, but there was a moment. I had never been into any type of Protestant church prior to meeting my wife and when I went up to meet her mother in Ashflat, arkansas, there was one church it was a little church of Christ. And I went in there and the to meet her mother in Ashflat, arkansas. It was one church, it was a little church of Christ. And I went in there and the pastor was a young guy. He was my age, he was a fire and brimstone guy and he kept saying this. He kept going now listen to this, now listen to this. And he was pointing at me. I kept thinking this guy, man, is pointing at me.

21:57
And I actually got up and left, right in the middle of the service and I told my wife, I said do you actually believe all of this? And she said yeah, and I went, adios, and I got up in the middle of the service and I left and I was walking across the street to their little house that her daddy built with his bare hands. He was a carpenter and I started going it. I started thinking now listen to this. I got mad at that, but I started going. I kind of, I kind of.

22:27
Maybe there's something there, maybe there's something there, and it was that night when my mother-in-law gave me that Bible.

22:34 - Speaker 1
That Bible Golly. So now you work. For six years You've worked in the general market sales strategy ops. Yeah, now you're trying to get for a number of years you said six years You're trying to get into what we would call a Christian-owned business or something. And where'd that thing break and what happened then you?

23:00 - Speaker 3
know it was interesting, it's totally God. I was going to work for a new company that was just starting, had recruited me and wanted me to come work for them and, you know, take over a big piece of the company. And I literally this is the truth I was living in Highland Village, texas. There in Dallas, I was walking out the door to start this new role and the phone rang. I was walking out the door and my wife answered the phone and I had the door open, walking out to my car and she said this calls for you. And I said, honey, I got to go. And she goes no, this is more than just a phone call. You need to take this call. And I went in and I picked up the phone and it was the president of Family Christian Stores and he said Fred, this is Les Dietzman was his name. He said your resume has been floating around here for a long time and we are getting ready to expand the company and we need some help. And would you have any interest at all after all these years of talking to us, paul?

24:02
I was walking out the door and that phone call came in and here's what I did I totally walked on faith. I went to that new organization. I walked in and I said today's my final day. It's my first day and my final day. And they went what? And I said, yeah, and I can't explain it to you because if I did, you wouldn't understand it. Yeah, but it's my first day and my final day and that's how God moved me into this place where, for the next 28 years, I've been impacting lives for Christ at a level I never thought I've had the ability to impact millions of lives for Christ through either products that I sold or teams that I've coached. It's incredible, it's humbling to me. I sometimes can't get my arms around how God has done that, because I'm just a goof. Look at me.

25:05 - Speaker 1
So you helped, but you helped a lot of different organizations.

25:08 - Speaker 3
I have. I've had a chance to work with lots of organizations yeah, some of them, I know.

25:13 - Speaker 1
So your leadership development strategy, mentoring, coaching when we get into that? You helped Tim Tebow with his organization. Yeah, so he seems to be a real guy.

25:25 - Speaker 3
He is a real guy, it's interesting the president of the Tebow Foundation. His name is Steve Biondo, and Steve and I worked together at Family Christian Stores and we're just great buddies. And he called me and said hey, man, I need your help over here. And I said you know what, steve? I love you. You and I have been buddies a long time, but I'm not coming over there unless I believe Timmy is for real. So we got on the phone and talked for a couple hours and, yeah, he's in fact. Friday night I am going to be in Fort Smith, arkansas, driving a limousine at the Night to Shine event, which is a big event for the Tebow Foundation.

26:07
We're special needs. Folks all over the world, from early teens to 80 years old, get to have a prom night experience.

26:16 - Speaker 1
Our partners in ministry, Ferris Abraham, who's our partner in Cairo, Egypt, his entire team will be doing a night to shine in.

26:26
Cairo, egypt, on Friday. So very familiar with it. When I was there last year working on the ministry things we do for men there with the Christian Men's Network in Cairo, met with a number of his team, saw some of the things they've done and what that Night to Shine has done is impact general culture. So people see this giving this special moment for special needs, young men and women, and it is not only something to be involved in but something that really shines a light of Christ to the local community.

27:02 - Speaker 3
It really does, and that's what the point of that is. It shines the light of Christ, and I think this is year six that I'll be driving a limousine with a buddy of mine since we were little kids and he and I drive a limo together.

27:16
I have to share a quick story. I just have to. Last time we were driving the limo, there's a special needs guy. He's probably 70 plus years old. He gets in the limo and he's got a date. He's got a date with me. I'm the fun guy and I'm like hey everybody.

27:36
I'm glad you're in here with us and we're going to take this loop around and drop you back off. And I said how many folks have been in a limo before? And some people raised their hand yeah, I did last year. And this guy says hey, mister, and I said yes, sir, and he goes could you keep it down? I'm operating back here with my girl. Could you keep it down? I'm operating back here with my girl. I gotta tell you, man, that's one of the funniest things in my whole life. And I go excuse me, and he goes keep it down, I'm operating back here I got something going on yes, sir you got it.

28:13 - Speaker 1
I don't need a wing man, I'm good, good.

28:16 - Speaker 3
Oh, it's an incredible blessing. But yeah, I've got to. You know, even though I don't do work with the Tebow group anymore, I'm still in contact with them and that I'll never miss that. Till God takes me, I'm going to be doing that.

28:29 - Speaker 1
That's fantastic. So now, in your leadership development, one of the things that you and I and Bryce, our producer, talked about was the difference between mentoring and coaching. Actually, what happened was we're talking about coaching because your son is a coach football coach right? How many children do you have?

28:47 - Speaker 3
I have two. I have a son and a daughter. They're about a year and a half apart.

28:51 - Speaker 1
Really, and so your son's a coach.

28:53 - Speaker 3
Yep.

28:54 - Speaker 1
Football.

28:56 - Speaker 3
Football coach. Football coach and high school teacher.

28:59 - Speaker 1
Tahlequah, Oklahoma.

29:01 - Speaker 3
Tahlequah, oklahoma, yes, the Tahlequah Fighting Tigers.

29:06 - Speaker 1
The Fighting Tigers of Tahlequah. That is a great. That's just. I want that t-shirt. I mean, doesn't that sound like the coolest thing? Well, it was kind of funny. Fighting Tigers of Tahlequah.

29:16 - Speaker 3
I mean, doesn't that sound like the coolest thing? When I started doing work with the Tebow group my son, you know, will have hats for me and I was wearing a hat that had TT on it for Tahlequah Tigers and you know I fly up to. I forgot where Tim was playing minor league baseball at the time and we flew up, spent some time at his house and I didn't even think about it. I had on my Tahlequah Tigers hat and everybody was like how did you get a Tim Tebow hat? How did you get a Tim Tebow hat? I didn't bring it to you, man, but it's the Tahlequah.

29:50 - Speaker 1
Tigers yeah, well, if you were from down where I live in Fort Worth, it would have been Texas tech.

29:55 - Speaker 2
Yeah.

29:56 - Speaker 1
When the thought of Tim hey, so, but your son's a coach, yeah, you've coached, uh, you've coached basketball, I mean, uh, boxing all these different things. And then we also talked about how you've mentored a lot of people. All right, here we go.

30:20 - Speaker 3
Here's the big question. Sounds to me like they're the same thing. Well, that's a statement that many people make, because, you know, I've got to help lots of organizations and people will always say, yeah, we want our leaders to be coaching and mentoring. Coaching and mentoring is a big part of helping, you know, bringing leaders, and I said, well, be careful.

30:33
As if it's the same skill set it's, it's, it's different, and here's, here's the way I define it. For organizations that I help, let's say you're the, you're dac prescott, you're the quarterback for the cowboys.

30:46 - Speaker 1
Let's use another one dude.

30:49 - Speaker 3
We come on, man seriously okay, let's say you're the quarterback for any team okay, let's say purdy. You know, with san francisco you're rock purdy and you go to the 49ers, and when you go to the 49ers there's a quarterback coach okay it's your coach. You don't. You don't get to, you don't get to choose that coach.

31:14 - Speaker 1
No, no that's your coach. He's your coach. You gotta live with that coach. No, no, that's your coach.

31:16 - Speaker 3
He's your coach, you've got to live with that coach. So coaching is that that choice is made for you often who your coach is going to be. But your mentor is different. You get to choose your mentor and your mentor affects your life in a much deeper level than what a coach normally would, because you to choose them.

31:40
I've had lots of people ask me to be a mentor and I'll go. I don't know you well enough and you don't know me well enough, because there's a real personal stake in a mentorship and it is deep and abiding to the people who do it together. It is deep and abiding to the people who do it together. So I'm very careful, paul, about who I'll take on from a mentoring standpoint, because coaching and mentoring are different. Mentoring you have to take a personal stake, you have to care, you have to be there 24 hours a day, and I have been and people have been for me and that's a long-term, sustainable, hopefully, relationship and I believe God brings those people together. So I always tell folks be careful to not use coaching and mentoring as the same thing, because they're not interchangeable. They're two separate things.

32:32 - Speaker 1
When you mentor, okay, let's go to that, because I've got a number of friends there's probably a few guys listening who say you know, I know that I should be a mentor in this young man's life. Let's say it's somebody in your business or it's somebody that you know at church, who might be a son of a single mom, and you go, you know I should be a mentor, but I don't even. I don't know what to talk to him about. Do I just talk to him about the football game? You know, dak Prescott? God bless the man you know, because I'm a Cowboys fan, so, but anyway, so, but you know what I'm saying. How do I, how do I actually start that conversation?

33:15 - Speaker 3
You know to be a mentor. To me, the starting of that is to understand, and I do it in kind of different levels.

33:22 - Speaker 2
I want to understand.

33:24 - Speaker 3
If they're a husband, you know what's happening with you as a husband, what's happening with you as a father, what's happening with you as a son. What's happening with you as a brother? What's happening with you? What's your business? What's happening with you there? Do you, who do you lead? Cause everybody leads. That's another thing. Everyone is a leader.

33:42 - Speaker 1
Everyone has influence.

33:43 - Speaker 3
Absolutely Positively. Everyone has influence. So I kind of kind of fill that out, that profile out, and then I start going well, how are you doing as a father? How are you doing as a husband? How are you doing? My, my, when I was, my kids were really little and it changed my life. I used to say you know what? We're going to have a monthly session and I would ask my wife how am I doing as a husband? And I'd ask my kids how am I doing as a dad? And you know, it was actually it was kind of self-serving because I was kind of arrogant going they're going to tell me that I'm this.

34:21
My son was maybe eight or nine and I traveled a lot, man, in my professional career, like 4 million miles in the air and all that. I was gone a lot and I thought building companies, I thought that's what God wanted me to do. But he stopped me in my tracks about my family. He who troubles his own family will inherit the win. But I had a session with my son. I'll never forget it. It was in Highland Village and I said all right, son, how am I doing as a dad? And this little face was like right in front of me and he's welled up with tears and he goes. You know, dad, why don't you do the things that you say you're going to do?

35:04 - Speaker 1
Oh, wow.

35:05 - Speaker 3
And I said what do you mean? And he said well, the last couple of weekends you said we were going to shoot hoops on Saturday and you just always said you had something else to do or you'd be working in your office. How come you don't do the things you say you're going?

35:23 - Speaker 1
to do.

35:24 - Speaker 3
And you know, for a little, eight or nine-year-old boy to face his father you know, it's always kind of that.

35:31
You know, it's dad and he did, and he was welled up with tears, and it makes me well up with tears. It changed my life. I went. You know what, son? You're right, you just taught me something I needed to learn. So when I start working with folks as a mentor, I want to understand all the different facets and all the different hats that they wear, whether they're, you know, a man or a woman. I want to understand all of that. And then I just simply ask discovery questions, Paul, just to let folks self-discover, and there's always. That always opens up the doors to what God wants me to help folks with.

36:12 - Speaker 1
You know it's interesting that when Jesus taught, many of the ways he taught most often was a question, a way of questions.

36:20 - Speaker 3
Yeah.

36:22 - Speaker 1
Do they say have you heard? And so perhaps sometimes what we do is we think we have to have answers, when really what we need is just a few of the right questions.

36:34 - Speaker 3
Yeah, what we need Is this a few of the right questions? Yeah, one of my first mentors taught me that discovery questions which lead to self-discovery is the most valuable thing you can do as a coach and as a mentor. So I do that a lot. I just ask a lot of discovery questions and it's kind of neat when you're with somebody and you see them self-discover.

37:03
You ask a question and then you just quick to listen, slow to speak, Then you're just quiet and you can see them start to self-discover and if they're a man or woman of God, you can see the Holy Spirit working on them. But that mentoring relationships allows for that intimacy where a coach you might not A mentor, allows for intimacy where you trust that person implicitly and go. I'm willing to bear myself to this individual.

37:34 - Speaker 1
So coaching could actually morph into a mentoring situation.

37:44 - Speaker 3
It could, it really could, and most of those people that I well, I want to say all those people that I now mentor I was their coach at one point. They were either someone I hired or someone I worked with in an organization.

37:52
I've done a lot of work with John Brown University, which is a private Christian university. I think I've lot of work with John Brown University, which is a private Christian university. I think I've been doing work with them for 12, 13 years now and a lot of those students met me when I was speaking to them just in a generic sense, and they became ingrained and some of them I still, after all these years, go into her and they'll get a hold of me and sometimes it's twice a year or sometimes it's an email going man I really need can, can you give me some wisdom? And you know what my wisdom is. I ask them a bunch of questions and help themselves recover yeah, my, my daughter attended there uh jbu cool yeah, she finished

38:36
actually university of north texas we lived there in siloam springs, where jbu is. We lived there for many years it's a great school. Yeah, I well, I worked with day spring cards, uh, which is christian cards. I worked for day spring for many years and that's how I got hooked up with jbu oh, my goodness, isn't that wild.

38:56 - Speaker 1
Yeah, so asking questions, you know the the thing is, is that, uh? So it's not so much as having the right answers, having a starting question yes and then I don't have been listening.

39:08
Because what happened? Well, we have a tendency to do this. Maybe it's a western culture thing, I think it is, and probably an American thing more than anything else, because, like you, I've traveled over 80 countries and I think we do this a lot in the US. As somebody's talking, we're formulating our answer, so we're not necessarily listening to their answer to our question, we're moving on to our next thing. So when you say what was it? Quick to speak, slow to answer.

39:45 - Speaker 3
Quick to listen and slow to speak Quick to listen, slow to speak.

39:47 - Speaker 1
Yeah, there you go. I'll get that. Say it again.

39:51 - Speaker 3
Quick to listen and slow to speak.

39:53 - Speaker 1
Slow to speak, okay. So if you're working out at the gym right now, you're listening to the podcast and talking with Fred, that's something for you to kind of maybe click a little thing there. It'll be in the show notes. Bryce will put it in the show notes and we'll have it on there, because, man, that's huge. I would say that that's how you keep your marriage together. Sorry, I just pivoted.

40:20 - Speaker 3
I pivoted the marriage. When I open my big mouth and I don't practice that, I get in trouble. Now I'm going to say this and people can throw buckets of water on me. If they ever see me on the show I would be willing to say, probably 95% of the time my wife's right, and you know it's hard. It's hard, it was hard for me early, but when I learned to go just listen, just listen. Where I have made the largest mistakes in my life I would say career mistakes it's because I didn't listen to the spirit driven voice of reason that my wife gave me.

41:03 - Speaker 1
Yeah.

41:04 - Speaker 3
Because she's such a prayerful person and I would go ah, I'm forging ahead. You can do this thing. Knock down walls, that's what.

41:12 - Speaker 1
I do. Knock down a raging bull. Raging bull, that was a great movie. Knock down a raging bull. Raging bull, that was a great movie. I'm a raging bull, I you know. One time, judy, my wife Judy, came to me and she said I don't know. She turned to me Let me put it that way and she said you know, I'm not one of your employees, I've heard that before.

41:34 - Speaker 3
Where have I heard that before? Don't treat me like one of your employees.

41:39 - Speaker 1
I'm not one of your employees, you know, okay. So okay, it's not declarative, it's a suggestion Suggestion. Here's my suggestion.

41:52 - Speaker 3
I want to comment on that thing you said about how important that quick to listen, so to speak. That was a real learned. I had to learn that and that was the Holy Spirit helping me. That because To learn to practice it, I had to learn to practice it. I had to learn I had to go shut up. I had to have this internal thing Shut up. I'll tell you what helped me do that.

42:13
I have a book, because I am a voracious reader and I think, paul, this book's probably well over 30 years old. It was by Chuck Swindoll. I like Chuck Swindoll books, I've got so many of them but this one was one called Stress Fractures was the name of the book, and in it Chuck Swindoll talks about the nature of a Christlike leader versus the nature of what I would call a non-Christlike leader. Okay, a Christlike leader is tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient. It doesn't mean that they're a pushover or they're not competitive, because I'm all those things. But when I read the opposite of that, it was me. And here's the opposite. A Christlike leader is tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient. The opposite is which is my nature critical, emotional, tense and impulsive.

43:15 - Speaker 1
That was wound tight and getting it done Exactly. I mean, that sounds like, but that's see, that sounds like.

43:21 - Speaker 3
Uh, south side of Chicago, that sounds like some of that upbringing I grew up in a incredibly critical emotional tension, impulsive, and it was a very physical environment. But I grew up in that and as a leader and I began to grow and I became more influenced by Christ and his teachings and trying to be a biblical versus a cultural Christian, which is two different things. I said to myself. You can never attain what God wants you to attain as a leader and you can never be the leader slash, mentor that he wants you to be. You better get to the tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient part.

44:02 - Speaker 1
Wow.

44:03 - Speaker 3
Because your critical, emotional, tense and impulsive ain't going to get it. So this is literally what I did for, I'd say, 15 years of corporate America. I would go into meetings and at the top of the page I would put TCRP tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient. I would put those letters.

44:25 - Speaker 1
Wow.

44:26 - Speaker 3
And I can't tell you how many people would walk by in different organizations and go what's that? What do you got? What is that?

44:33 - Speaker 1
I think there's some guys listening right now that need to tattoo that on the palm of their hand.

44:38 - Speaker 3
Well, I got to tell you.

44:39 - Speaker 1
Every so often, like you used to put the answers to tests. Yeah, not that we ever did that, don't get me started.

44:46 - Speaker 3
Don't get me started.

44:49 - Speaker 1
Just like put that like a tattoo, Like there it is.

44:54 - Speaker 3
It is. When I learned to be tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient. It changed who I was as a husband, who I was as a father, who I was as a brother, as a son, as a leader. It changed everything. But I will tell you this Inside of me we all have demons to fight. I am, that's in there there's a violent, critical, emotional, tense and impulsive guy. But I don't live that because the Holy Spirit got a hold of me and went no pal, that's not it.

45:29 - Speaker 1
Yeah, there is that redemptive part of us in which the sanctification of Christ begins to change the way we think. But there's still that, that we're still human. You know, it's kind of like when the disciples were on a boat and they're going across a lake and there's a storm and Jesus is asleep and they're like dude, he's asleep, we're going to die. And some of these guys are trained, you know seamen, and so they're not like they shouldn't be afraid, but they're like dude, this is really bad. So you look at a fisherman and he's scared. You're like dude, we're going to die.

46:04
And they wake Jesus up and he goes dude, what's the deal? Where's your faith? But he didn't put him down for being human. Yeah, he didn't say to them hey, you guys shouldn't be human, because he knows we're human, which is why Christ came. God knew we needed a savior. So in our humanity, he, if you will, there's these things in us that rise up. I mean, you know there's. I mean everybody, whoever drives on a freeway anywhere, any populous city in the world, is going to have something rise up at some point where they want to wave at a guy and go dude, you are number one. Yeah, yeah, you know. So you know there's that thing and so that's that deal, where that self-talk, if you will Fred has to come back and say but here's who I am, here's my identity. My definition is TCRP. My definition is that I am going to be that, I'm going to be that man who actually, okay, we're going to dial it down right now, and before it comes out of my mouth in my head, I'm going to dial it down.

47:17 - Speaker 3
It's a difficult transition. I had someone who worked with me. She was my assistant at a company and when I started practicing this and it was at a Christian organization she worked me for several years. She saw the change. She saw it. And one time I came into my office and she had put this really beautifully well-made thing in this heavy plexiglass holder and I walked in my office it was sitting on my desk. Well, I can get so emotional over this stuff. And here's what it said Exercise your authority with grace exercise your authority with grace and I said what is this?

47:59
And she said this is what you do. This isn't what you used to do many years ago. Wow, there's a brick wall and it's in my way, but this is who you are and I love watching this because I see people grow and develop through that and it. But it was in case. And it said exercise authority with grace. And I gotta tell you I sat there for hours looking at it going the lord has so much grace with me that I don't. Grace is a hard concept for me. The concept I don't think is hard, but accepting it it's difficult.

48:46 - Speaker 1
Tell me about how everything shifted for that little eight-year-old boy that looked at his dad with tears in his eyes.

48:53 - Speaker 3
I'll tell you what it did. I learned so much from him, but he was. God, used him from that day on. He was such a spirit for little boys. He ended up after one year of college, paul. He came to me.

49:12
We were living in Michigan. I'm down in the basement watching a football game and he comes to me and he had finished his first year of college. He was two weeks from, I think, the new semester starting and I I knew who he was in the lord. But he came to me and said dad said um, it's been a long. You know travel and you know long road. I was like you're 19.

49:36
You haven't gone down a long road yet, but God's moving me towards ministry and it's not here. And I said what do you mean? It's not here. And he goes it's not here, it's not in the United States. And I said, no, god's moving you towards getting your second year of college started. And I said, no, god's moving you towards getting your second year of college started. He said no. He said you know, you've taught me that I need to follow God's prompting and teaching. And he said I don't know what that means, but it means I need to do this. And I said, son, and he goes. You know he got me Paul. I told him it's really unfair. He goes. Jesus told Peter to lay down his nets. Do you know how unfair that is? And I said and I looked at him and I go, but I get it. I know what path he's on. I don't know what that means to him and I go, but I get it. I know what path he's on. I don't know what that means.

50:37
I will tell you this Within four weeks he had found a ministry in England that sent youth people all around the world to start youth and he ended up in Northern Ireland five weeks later on his own doing youth ministry all across Northern Ireland. Wow, and he and I have talked many times of I said you know, son, I think your strength and my strength because you gave it to me I can trace that back to an eight-year-old boy. Wow, looking at me in the face, going daddy, when you told me you were going to do something. And you know we were heavy church people and deep involved in everything and in his mind it was like when somebody of faith says they're going to do something and they don't do it.

51:30
And we traced it back to that. So it's incredible how, when I can look back and see how God has worked, Number one yeah, the first ministry for a man is to his family.

51:42 - Speaker 1
And if you're listening right now, if you're listening or watching and you say, well, you know, I'm single, or whatever, there is a community that needs you, there is a community of young men that needs you. So, number one, get plugged into a local church. This is part of what happened in your life, right, fred? Yes, absolutely, get plugged into a local church, get involved in the community and then out of that will come relationships and then make yourself available.

52:12
It is so easy to be negative. It's so, you know. In fact, it doesn't take any work to be a mediocre man, first of all. Secondly, it's really easy to tear stuff down. All you got to do is get on Facebook and just throw crap around to people, and the hard thing is actually building something.

52:33
It's, if you will, to put yourself out there and say, hey, here's a young man, there's an event Saturday at our church, and I know that his mom, you know she doesn't know what to do. So you go to her and you say, hey, if you'll bring him Saturday, he'll sit with me, I'll be there for the event for him and then afterwards I'll take him out for a bite to eat, and then what's your address? I'll drop him off at the house, just that kind of thing. You don't know what that will do to a young man's life, what that could do. I mean those are simple. I mean I'm thinking of the simplest thing we can do, fred, because we complicate it, we make all these barriers in our brain. Well, how do I talk to a 14-year-old? I don't know what to say, you know. Just talk to them like a person.

53:26 - Speaker 3
You know, I'll tell you. When we went to see my son, we went to visit him in Northern Ireland and I wanted to go back where part of my family came from, which was down in the Republic of Ireland. But we were up in Northern Ireland and everywhere we went, Paul, all these small little villages and places, they all knew my son. Oh, you're Joe's dad. Oh yeah, and I was like I don't know what he did, but they all knew him.

53:57 - Speaker 2
But you know what?

53:58 - Speaker 3
he did. He made people feel special by just talking with them and including them and inviting them to things. He gave them self-worth from saying you're important to me and because you're important to me, I want you to be a part of this with me. You can choose to do it or not do it. And everywhere we went I mean to tell you these tiny little villages there were not even a road going through them. They all knew Joe that's my son. They all knew who Joe was and they went. Yeah, joe invited me to do this. Or Joe came here and helped us cut this tree down, or Joe did this and it was out of purpose and and letting people know you're important, even though you may not really know me, you're important you're important.

54:43 - Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. And now, uh, and now there's a lot of young men in tallaqua, oklahoma, who call them coach ick, yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, dude, that is it man. I mean, you think about all the accolades you've had in business and you've been with some major corporations. You've helped people strategize and organize major events or big sales things. You've hit numbers, you've done this and that, but, dude, rolling up to a little village in Northern Ireland and somebody going, yeah, yeah, your son, your son, that's it man.

55:19 - Speaker 3
Right there, my life was fulfilled. Honestly, I remember looking up to the heaven standing on the beach there, this little place that he lived Port Rush is a little town that he lived in and going Lord, this is such a better man than I. He heard you, he's the best man I know he really is. He heard you, he answered you and and now he's bringing people to you and it's just it was. It was awesome, you know, it was a cool thing, it really was it's amazing frederick canalsky.

55:56 - Speaker 1
It's been great hanging out with you on Brave Men, you too. These are the kinds of conversations that, for me, help us, if you will dial in here. I am driving to my shop in Flagstaff, or I'm sitting in a cafe in Uganda, or wherever many of our friends are listening right now our brothers and there's these little moments where you say something like that TCRP, and all of a sudden something unlocks or something clicks, or it's like, hey, this guy loves boxing and he's still a Christian. You know, it's like, because you still do that, you told me you come, you've come back and you're now still doing commentating on the fire.

56:41 - Speaker 3
The fire hasn't left. I mean I'm going to be doing something in the next couple of weeks on the radio about it.

56:46 - Speaker 1
I mean the beautiful science it is man, it it's.

56:51 - Speaker 3
It's different. It's a different uh game than it used to be, but I still get excited about it. Hey, can I share one more leadership thing with you, please do? Yeah, you know my father, you know I talked about him earlier being a self-educated man. He worked for a company for 42 years, which is what folks did then in his generation to stay with somebody, and it was the heating, air conditioning world that he lived in.

57:20
And when I got into doing commercial real estate for some of the companies I worked with, one of the big things you always looked at negotiating was HVAC heating, ventilation, air conditioning.

57:31
Well, I was around it in and around it for my whole life and suddenly one morning I woke up at like three in the morning and I know it was God and he said listen, take what I, what you were involved in your whole life growing up and I'm going to give you something and I want you to teach from that. So I took those letters, hvac and I turned them into what I think for me is the most powerful leadership tool that I've ever used and I've taught it for over 20 years. And here's what that stands for it's humility, vulnerability, accountability and courage, and a leader needs to embody all of those things, paul. But you can't be humble and you can't be vulnerable and you certainly can't hold yourself accountable to your team unless you're courageous. And I'll tell you, I've worked with you know. Someone asked me the other day how many CEOs have you either worked for or with? Someone asked me the other day how many CEOs have you either worked?

58:37
for or with, and it's close to 40. I would probably say maybe five would embody those four things, because they're difficult to do as a leader, whether you're in business or not, if you're a pastor, those things are difficult to do. But the ability to be humble, the ability to be vulnerable in front of the people that you're leading, to hold your you know, accountability is many times thought of as I'm holding the team accountable, I'm holding an individual, no man. You got to hold yourself accountable to the team. Accountability comes from the bottom up. But the final piece of courage you have to be courageous to embody those other three. And as a father and a husband and a grandfather of two granddaughters scares me. But two granddaughters I think about that all the time and go. They have to look at me as a model and they have to go. You know they call me daddo my granddaughters because that's awesome.

59:38
That's the irish uh slang for grandpa oh, that's awesome, I love it so they call me daddo and I want them to look at daddo and go. You know what, if daddo is wrong, he'll admit he's wrong. Yeah, and you know if, if daddo says he's going to do something, he's going to do that. So I'm accountable, yeah.

59:59 - Speaker 1
So HVAC, humility, vulnerability, accountability, courage. Yeah, I think what you're talking about when you start talking about the first part is you're talking about internal, yes, and then you're going to external and then you're going to external. So you've got this internal. If you will dialing into humility, which is and I heard this years ago and I still like it a lot which is humility is not thinking less of yourself, it's thinking of yourself less, and so it's humility, it's the power of the life of Jesus Christ, humility. I think of my friend, reggie White, who played football in Philadelphia.

01:00:41 - Speaker 3
Oh, I love Reggie White. He's a hero of mine.

01:00:44 - Speaker 1
Yeah, and I remember Reggie. I mean this guy. I remember he went in a game against Larry Allen, against the Cowboys. Larry Allen was considered the strongest man in the NFL Bench press 745 pounds multiple times and I remember Reggie was defensive end, throwing Larry aside and just killing, you know Troy. Two nights before that that was a game was on Sunday. Two days before that, on a Friday night. He's at our house on the floor with my two sons jumping off the back of the couch onto him. To me, what that was was he didn't have to prove his strength.

01:01:25 - Speaker 3
That's right.

01:01:26 - Speaker 1
That's humility. He didn't have to say, hey, I can do this, I can do that. And so the strength was his inner strength, that character that didn't have to see. The stronger a man is on the inside, the more gracious he can be on the outside. It's the man who's weak on the inside who tries to prove his strength on the outside. Go ahead, I did this, I did that, I won this award. I've got 22s on my car, whatever the thing is, you know. But it was that true strength. He had a true strength on the inside. He knew his strength, he knew who he was. He didn't have to prove it. And so here he is with the two little boys jumping on him from the back of the couch and him wrestling on the ground. And then two days later, he's destroying Troy Aikman, throwing Larry Allen to the side. And a remarkable man.

01:02:20
But the fact is, that's really what humility is to me, fred. It's that ability to know who I am and not have to tell somebody or prove it. And then vulnerability. That is not an easy thing. So now you have to have humility to do that. That's vulnerability, that's internal. And then accountability is that self-talk of I'm holding myself accountable to myself number one. And then we see the external, which is that courage. So character and then courage, and, if you will, it's what's lacking in the world today.

01:03:00 - Speaker 3
I totally agree with you, totally.

01:03:03 - Speaker 1
That's why we do what we do, why we're connected with men like yourself and dude. Thanks for jumping in and going. Hey, there's one more thing HVAC. Well, I love sharing that.

01:03:16 - Speaker 3
I'll share that to people in Lowe's or Walmart if they give me a chance. That's just important. And I see too many leaders and I'm a I'm a study of leaders. I have been and it's been my passion and God gave me that passion. But those four things when he woke me up in the middle of the night and said you take this, use this acronym because you grew up with this, with these letters.

01:03:41 - Speaker 1
Well, it's transportable, it's easy to carry.

01:03:43 - Speaker 3
It is, and you use it, and it's true, and I can't tell you the number of leaders that I have worked with or attached with, and they're missing two or three of these.

01:03:55 - Speaker 1
Oh no, I'm going to preach this Saturday at a men's summit, worked with or attached with, and they're missing two or three of these. And oh no, I'm gonna. I'm gonna preach this saturday at a men's summit and I'm gonna look like a genius, bro. I'm gonna feel like dude, where'd you get that? I don't know.

01:04:05 - Speaker 3
Holy spirit just dropped it in my heart you go ahead and do it, buddy, if it changes, if it gets men's lives in the right direction, don't do it I don't know.

01:04:15 - Speaker 1
I just came, I don't know. I was just thinking I was looking up the air conditioning. I love it, you know. I love it, you know. And then you know the whole thing. You know it's a funny old deal, but I like it, which is the first time you hear something. You go well, fred Ikenowski taught me this. And you go well, fred Ikenowski taught me this. The second time he says you know a great man I know once said.

01:04:40 - Speaker 3
And the third time is you know as I always say I have to watch myself, because when I'm teaching stuff like this tolerant, calm, relaxed and patient. I can remember doing a training session at a company one time and I took that as mine and I felt so bad that I went back the next day and went. You know what that came from stress fractures by Chuck Swintop. But I had myself so convinced that I was on top of all of this and I went.

01:05:10 - Speaker 1
You know, there's something I practice and I call it this, and I was like, hey, you, you know, it's okay, Cause, cause, you know, and really it's a compliment, uh, when it becomes a part of your speech. You know, and, and you, you know what I love. You met my son Bryce, who's our producer, and, uh, you know, I hear things sometimes we'll come back and I'll go dude, that is awesome my son Brandon, who's a fantastic pastor, and he'll say something, or one of the grandchildren and I'll go. Eh, I think I think I actually said that to them and now it's part of their speech.

01:05:46 - Speaker 3
Yeah, gotta love it.

01:05:47 - Speaker 1
Yeah, that's that to me is legacy, man, because, uh, you know, what you do in life becomes history, but what you put into motion becomes your legacy, and so when you speak that into their lives and then it becomes part of that forward thing, dude, that's what life's about, man.

01:06:05 - Speaker 3
Yeah, Life becomes very simple the older I get. My wife said I'm not allowed to say I'm old because then that makes her old. She said don't ever quit talking about you're the old guy in the meeting, because that makes me old, and don't? She looks pretty close to how she looked 40 some odd years ago. I look like a hobbit. She looks almost the same. I don't understand. I just don't understand it.

01:06:30 - Speaker 1
So we, judy, we were married for a long time and, and starting somewhere around 35 years of marriage, she would say don't tell people how long we've been married. Then, once we tipped over 50, and now we're into our 50s years of marriage, she's like, yeah, go ahead, doesn't matter, Tell everybody we're in our 53rd year of marriage, it's all right, doesn't matter? Yeah, so anyway, it's all right, doesn't matter? Yeah, so anyway it's all good. Hey, fred, you can ask me, it's been great spending time with you, man, and hearing some of these things and getting this stuff into our heart and our spirit. And I just pray in these days ahead for Fred and Jill and your consulting, mentoring, coaching, you know, whatever those things are. I pray every place that the Lord takes your feet will be holy ground and everything your hands get put to and everything he puts in your hands, that it would prosper and that he would grant you great favor in the days ahead. And thanks for being with us on Brave man bro.

01:07:41 - Speaker 3
Thanks, paul. I'll end my time with you as I do on the radio when I'm doing my boxing segment, and I will tell you this, always in your corner, don't forget that I love.

01:07:47 - Speaker 1
It Got your back.

01:07:53 - Speaker 2
Brave Men is a production of Christian Men's Network, a global movement of men committed to passionately following Jesus on the ground in over 100 nations worldwide. You can receive the Brave Men motivational email, find books and resources for discipleship and parenting at cmn.men. That's cmn.men. Your host has been Paul Louis Cole, president of Christian Men's Network, and if you haven't yet, please make sure you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast wherever you find podcasts or download it. Thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you next time on Brave Men.