Breaking Good: Sathiya Sam's Journey from Porn Bondage to Radical Freedom

00:05 - Speaker 1 Hi, this is Paul Louis Cole. You're listening to the Brave Men podcast Today. Sathiya Sam is on with me, great friend and creator of the deep, clean, research-based Bible-backed system for overcoming porn addiction. Pornography is actually hollowing out the hearts of so many men. This program today, this podcast, is going to help you. 00:30 He said some things in this our time together that I actually wrote down. I took notes as we did this. It wasn't just like pre-notes you know I always do research, but on this one I just began to take notes as he was talking, as we were doing the interview, and then I shared it at a pastor's meeting a couple of weeks later. I look like a genius. We always joke about that kind of thing. Is you hear something like that from Sathiya? You write it down and then you just tell the guys yeah, I don't know, this just kind of arrived in my heart like a word of knowledge. So, hey, we are in the middle of also on Monday Night Mem, which is on YouTube, and Christian Men's Network Facebook, and this program, this podcast, is sponsored by the Christian Men's Network and the Global Fatherhood Initiative. Christian Men's Network is a human justice mission focused on defeating fatherlessness, ending child abuse and helping families be restored. Cmn. What we say at CMN Christian Men's Network is we are CMN, we rescue men. 01:43 We're doing a series called Absolute Answers. It's written by my father, dr Ed Cole, and he wrote a book called Absolute Answers about his own life. It's a fascinating look at what it means to be a prodigal and then return and what's the pivot point between ruin and reconciliation. That pivot point is repentance, and so when the prodigal came home it was in the spirit of repentance. It's in Luke, chapter 15. It is a deep dive in what it means to be human, what it means to be a man, to mess up, have the courage to get back up, walk back in and find restoration. 02:27 One of the things that Sathiya and I talked about is that when our minds are renewed, we are a new creation and that happens instantly. Old things pass away, but some of that takes time. For Sathiya it took 15 years of him walking through a porn addiction and now he's a coach for others started Deep Clean. This is going to be a great time together. But look into YouTube. It's called Christian Men's Network YouTube. Go on there and make sure you click in there, subscribe to it and then watch the Monday Night Men series called Absolute Answers, which started about the same time as Sathiya and I sat down and talked together. You're going to be confronted with some things that will help you and I become better men in this podcast today. Hey, thanks for being a part of the Brave Men podcast. Here's Sathiya Sam today hey, thanks for being a part of the Brave Men podcast. Here's Sophia Sam Sophia. This is awesome having you in our studios at Christian Men's Network and being a part of what you know. 03:38 Just watching what you do and being a guest on your podcast and all that, and seeing what's happening with the ministry is absolutely remarkable. What started this in your life? What started this whole thing? Helping men get off porn? 03:50 - Speaker 3 I mean it really started with my own struggle and I mean I can get into. There's some specifics you know grew up in a Christian home, got exposed to pornography in the computer lab of my Christian school. 04:00 - Speaker 1 Really Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. So you grew up in a home where your father and mother were there yep, yep. 04:07 - Speaker 3 Parents are both present dad's a pastor christ followers of christ yeah, right. 04:10 - Speaker 1 And so at a young age you're. So now you're in your school, yeah, and you get exposed to pornography in a computer lab of a christian school. Yeah, yeah. 04:21 - Speaker 3 So how old are you at this point? 11, 11 years old. So you have to think my parents again. My parents are single income home, living on a pastor's salary. All their extra money is going to me getting a Christian education so that I don't get exposed to pornography. 04:34 - Speaker 2 So this doesn't happen? Wow, yeah, yeah. 04:38 - Speaker 3 So, yeah, you know, buddy comes up to me. Hey, you know, he played really high level soccer, as high level as you can, at 11 years old. And oh, my buddy told me about this site. You gotta go check it out. So I type it in. It's still a porn site, but it doesn't sound like one, so I won't mention the domain, um, and I'm just totally green, so I type it in. He, I think he knew he had already seen it and and this was back in the day, you know, you got the, the computer monitor, that's got the power button, because this is a public environment, right? You know, my teachers are around, my peers are around, so I, I don't type this thing yeah. 05:08 So I don't think anybody else saw what we, what we had done, but I was like man, we're mashing that thing trying to get the monitor off. It won't go off, yeah, you can't find it because you know your fingers all jittery. 05:19 - Speaker 1 So you saw an image, you saw a pornography. It was an image, okay yeah, this is 2001 right. What did that do? 05:27 - Speaker 3 seemingly nothing at first. Uh, I didn't go home and look it up again. I wasn't addicted overnight, I was pre-puberty, so I skipped a grade. So my my peers were always a little bit ahead of me as far as development goes now. 05:39 - Speaker 1 You were good in athletics I was okay in athletics. 05:42 - Speaker 3 I got better later on, but I was really good with academics. 05:44 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah good in academics. Yeah, but you're, but you're an athlete yeah, yeah, you still look like you take care of yourself definitely. 05:51 - Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, I left and all that. So you. 05:52 - Speaker 1 You knew all the guys. 05:54 - Speaker 3 You knew you weren't just a loner in the corner. No, no, I was. Yeah, I was fortunate, because actually that's what they say when you skip a grade they're like that's the biggest risk. It's not, um, intellectually, it's socially. But no, I was fortunate, I always made it in. I was usually the token brown kid in the school, you know. So I had an in, I always had a way in. 06:08 - Speaker 1 You grew up in canada yeah, I grew up. 06:10 - Speaker 3 I actually grew up in in regina saskatchewan regina. So I mean prairie, prairie land, that's even whiter yeah, like a chocolate chip in a bowl of rice. 06:18 - Speaker 1 Yeah no, I know saskatchewan yeah, there you go. 06:20 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so, so, um, the seed was planted. I think that's what that moment was. The seed got planted and a year later, when I start to hit puberty, I remembered the site. Wow, and so that's, that's. 06:34 - Speaker 1 That's what I went back to, like a dog returning to its vomit really well, in a sense, but what it really is is that we think in images. Yes, and one of the things that we, I think, have a tendency to forget because, as older adults, we get so into words, we forget that our young boy, he's into images. 06:57 - Speaker 3 Yeah, pictures speak way louder. Yeah, so that's a great point. It was the picture that stuck. Yeah, and, like I said, this is is 2001. So this is before the smartphone, before broadband internet, before video is as accessible as it is now. So it was all about pictures back then. Yeah, I, I spent most of high school just watching kind of regularly, and the strange thing is I'm still in christian education and I actually remember this one, my first sleep overs with kind of my new group of friends, and you know, we're all just hanging out, we're playing video games and watching sports, and there's these guys off in the corner and watching something on the computer, giggling away, and more guys start to congregate and before you know it, we're all sitting on this computer watching pornography. We're all involved in our churches. I've been going to churches since we were kids. 07:43 We're all going to the same Christian school and that socialization really spurred it on in my high school years. Like I think if my peers were talking badly, like oh, I would never do that, it might've deterred me. But the socialize I remember that being very permissive for me, like okay, I mean, I guess if they're doing it then it's not that big of a deal. So high school it was just kind of normal. And then, because I was a high achieving academic, I rolled straight into university 16 years old, went into an honors program and was volunteering. 08:18 - Speaker 4 I was working with children with autism. 08:20 - Speaker 3 I had five figures in research grants, doing research in my biology lab and then getting straight A's. So a lot of pressure, a lot of work, and then I was working part-time, I used to flip burgers at Wendy's on the weekends. 08:31 - Speaker 1 Oh, did you really. 08:32 - Speaker 3 Yeah, make a little money. Still love the JBC yeah. 08:34 - Speaker 1 But you were younger. 08:36 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I was young Young when I was doing all of it. 08:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Let me go back on something right here, because this is fascinating to me. For those of us, my children were blessed to be able to go through a Christian-based school. My grandchildren are in public schools with Christian parents and very involved in their high school groups at church and okay their parents are. All their parents are pastors right okay, so my, my experience is that is that the christian school environment didn't necessarily protect you. No, versus a public school environment. 09:16 - Speaker 3 Now there's other reasons, I think, that are important sure chapel services yeah, you get a christian worldview as get educated, which is valuable. 09:24 - Speaker 1 But what is it that we could do for our 14, 15, 13-year-olds? Yeah, I think the Attorney General of the United States a number of years ago in fact it was early internet, it seems to me this is the Attorney General under Clinton, so it was a long time ago. Okay, attorney general under clinton, so it was a long time ago. Okay, said the average, um, the average young person will be exposed to pornography at the age of nine on the internet. Wow, at some level yeah, that's crazy. 09:54 - Speaker 3 They said that in the 90s yeah, exactly that's my point. 09:57 - Speaker 1 It's like if it was prevalent then it's probably still there now. Now, obviously there's somewhat more protections, people you know yeah even secular. People are going whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not healthy, this is not good. People are getting diseases. People are getting stuff, stuff's happening to people. How do I protect my 12-year-old son Because I'm putting him into Christian school? I'm a good guy, I'm not doing porn, you know yeah I may drink too much, I may do. 10:29 I'm just a guy yeah but I don't want my kid getting spun out on this. How do I protect my? 10:35 - Speaker 3 okay, I want you had you said a couple things I need to touch on. One is the world is waking up, which is really interesting, because when I, when I helping guys in 2018, everyone was like oh man, good luck. You know it was yeah. It was like oh, you're really going to talk about that? You really think people are going to actually, you know, be on board? 10:52 - Speaker 1 Yeah, who would actually go to your site? 10:57 - Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly yeah. Who would go to your site? It's going to get blocked anyway, yeah. But you know, I interviewed on the world's biggest fitness podcast last year. Eight million downloads a month and they just want to understand pornography addiction, just the harmful effects, through an academic lens. So the world, the world is definitely waking up, because now they know yeah, 100, it's. 11:13 It's inescapable. But the second part and um you touched on, like the, the youngest, early exposure is the greatest predictor of addiction, by by far. Like above anything else. Like forget your childhood, forget what your parents were like, forget where you grew up, um, early exposure is the greatest predictor of whether or not you'll develop a bad habit with pornography. 11:33 - Speaker 1 For sure okay, so in other words, uh, single single parent, not single parent, two parents there. Um, you know, I got beat up as a kid, whatever, or even abused yeah. 11:44 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 11:44 - Speaker 1 That's not. 11:45 - Speaker 3 It's not the predictor, like those factor in. 11:49 - Speaker 1 They factor in. 11:49 - Speaker 3 Yeah, but like the first question I would ask is how old were you when you got exposed? Usually, that tells me everything I need to know. 11:54 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 11:55 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so the delay is the way. That's kind of the phrase. 11:58 - Speaker 1 Wow, delay is the way. That is a great phrase. 12:01 - Speaker 3 Yeah. So it's not about. Oh, I hope my kid never gets exposed to porn. But if I can delay their exposure I can really serve them well, and there's a couple of reasons for that. If you want to get into the neuroscience, there's some really interesting things around that. Before I touch on the neuroscience, the other thing delay is the way. The other thing is when I think about my own story. So in theory it would have been great if I would have never had that exposure in the computer lab at my Christian school. But what actually would have saved me more and what's a much better catch-all to all of this, is if my dad would have just talked to me about pornography at home. 12:36 - Speaker 2 Oh, wow. 12:38 - Speaker 3 That honestly, would have changed the trajectory. I can pretty much guarantee it. Did he think? 12:42 - Speaker 1 basically hey, he's a good kid, he would never do this. 12:50 - Speaker 3 So yeah, there was all of that, because I was a good kid and I was well behaved and my parents didn't have cause for concern. But between Indian culture and conservative Christianity there just wasn't a lot of talk about sex in the home. In general it was just it was a little bit of a hushed subject. My parents weren't super comfortable with it. So what I've gathered now is, if you just talk to your kids about sex in the home, even from a young age, even just around their body but you know, my kid's 16 months old and if I say, judah, where's your penis? He knows where it is. You know, just kind of normalizing like this is not something to be ashamed of, we're not going to make a big deal of it, it's just, it's part of your body. 13:20 Pornography is a thing online. Hey, if you find any of it, just let me know, you're not going to be in trouble. Just little catch-alls like that go a really, really long way, because we kind of like throw stones at the church like, oh, the church should be talking about it more. And then we kind of throw stones at the education system, like whether they're not protecting our kids or they're over-protecting our kids, it doesn't matter where you fall, but really like the best education happens at home, and if the parents would just talk about it and if the parents would set an example, like if we have more fathers who are just modeling, like, hey, son, I struggled with this, my life is so much better now that I don't. 13:52 I figured it out To me like that's the ultimate solution here. And the reason we need this now, even more than in 2001 when Sophia got exposed to pornography, is because my journey with porn was very image-based, like we were talking about, eventually became videos, but was relatively vanilla compared to today. So today you have two issues with pornography. Number one is it's the three A's. Porn is affordable, accessible and anonymous, so it's unique from other drugs or other you know, addictive tendencies tendencies because most of them don't have all three a's to the same degree that pornography does, so that that alone means that. So, for example, if I wanted to watch pornography when I was 13 years old, I had to find the time when the home was empty. 14:40 Nobody was in the living room, which is where our family computer was right and those barriers to entry meant I the volume of consumption was a lot less. Because the volume is so intense now because you can access it on your smartphone. As a 12, 13 year old, the, the dependency and the wiring that it's having on your nervous system is happening more rapidly and so the addiction is a lot stronger because you're still early stages of sexual development in your teen years. 15:06 Digital cocaine, digital cocaine yeah, exactly, and so I think that's a huge problem. I think the other element and the other reason that pornography is so it's so gripping now, is because 80% of mainstream pornography depicts scenes of violence and aggression towards, typically, the woman 80, 80. 15:29 - Speaker 1 So in other words, it's degraded, it's gone. Because you've got it once, you're into a lustful thing. There has to be more yes once you're into dopamine, hits it it yeah, this thing doesn't give me dopamine now, exactly. So the bigger hit. 15:42 - Speaker 3 Yeah, the neurobiological term is desensitization, yeah, and so desensitization means, uh, that you increase the volume, you'll increase the intensity and then eventually, like we have guys who come to us. They're like I'm a heterosexual man, I'm married, I have kids and I struggle with gay porn and I'm looking at gay porn yeah oh no, I've had guys, I'm sure you've heard that story a bunch right and the part of. 16:05 - Speaker 1 It is the first time. 16:07 - Speaker 3 It surprised me I gotta tell you, man, it was like what yeah, yeah, well, you wouldn't expect it yeah, but things had to go to the next level exactly there's a there's a novelty seeking there that often drives people to watch these kinds of very obscure things. Unfortunately, you and I were. We were talking about James Dobson. Before we hit record, james Dobson interviewed Ted Bundy, the world's maybe most notorious serial killer, before he died. You know Bundy had like a thousand interview requests. 16:33 He said I'll do the one with Dobson and Dobson asked him what do you think account like 29 documented you know, rapes and murders. Like when you look back on your story, bundy was a lawyer. He was a lawyer Like this guy was academically achieving, he was in the affluent in society. And he says what do you think accounted for your life turning out this way? And he said I can tell you just from my own life and all the guys that are in this maximum security prison with us, nothing has caused more of this damage than pornography. 17:05 - Speaker 1 Yeah, in this maximum security prison, with us nothing has caused more of this damage than pornography. 17:07 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I remember that and the. What he was getting at is when you get exposed to pornography, initially it's thrilling and then things need to escalate. So bundy's an extreme example. Not everyone's going to become a serial killer because they watch porn, but we do have a lot of guys who go to massage parlors. They do the thing they never thought. They have affairs right. Their behavior starts to escalate because porn is creating this desensitization in the brain and the desensitization devalues humanity, then oh yeah. 17:32 - Speaker 1 So now that humanity is devalued, you can hurt somebody with less of a? What sense of emotive connection? 17:40 - Speaker 3 less of a conscious about it for sure. Yeah, yeah, porn makes you sell incredibly selfish. That's the underlying message of pornography it's all about you. So a lot of guys who get exposed to porn when they're young they get married, so they they maybe they save, save, save sex for marriage or whatever. And then they're told that, like you know, as long as you do that you're good. But the problem is pornography has warped their expectations and their threshold for experiencing arousal so significantly that you have guys in their 20s experiencing erectile dysfunction. You have guys who are like, oh, this sex doesn't really do for me what I thought it would do, because their bodies are hardwired to get this. But again, this is another neuro term super normal stimulus. It's an unnatural amount of stimulation to the body that the body eventually starts to require it to experience. Unnatural amount of stimulation to the body that the body eventually starts to require it to experience any kind of arousal okay. 18:30 - Speaker 1 So it raises, say that again, it raises the threshold for arousal of arousal of normal sexual arousal yeah okay for for a man to get an erection, so now it's so. Now it's more difficult for him like with his wife. 18:50 - Speaker 3 Yeah, sometimes impossible. 18:53 - Speaker 1 So now you've got you. This is a real thing, man. So now this, this couple is dealing with something and she doesn't get it no because she's, because, you know, because one of the things let's go back on something one of the things that you hit that was, I thought, so good, not that anything wasn't good everything's the one good thing that came out, the one thing that was really good. 19:13 - Speaker 3 Yeah, thanks for being here. That was one good, one good thing. Hey, if I got one good thing, I guess but? 19:21 - Speaker 1 but my deal is is that what I caught in an underlying piece or when you talk about normalization of the conversation, is you take the shame away? De-shaming it, de-shaming yeah is that? 19:36 - Speaker 3 I don't know if that's. I think that's the thing. Yeah, that's the word I use. We make it, do you really? Yeah, okay good. 19:40 - Speaker 1 yeah, well, you're smarter than me, so it must be a word. So, uh, de-shamization, right. So the point is is that you've taken the shame away, and one of the things that we talk about a lot with Christian Men's Network is that guilt is knowing you made a mistake, yeah, but shame is believing you are the mistake. Yes, that's right. So this issue of shame becomes something internalized. Yeah, so now a man's dealing with shame and he can't get an erection with his own wife. Now what's he gonna do? Right? 20:15 - Speaker 3 you know what I'm saying? 20:16 - Speaker 1 it's like 100 dude and so she's like he's gonna go a couple different ways. So what happens? How does that man, what's the uh outworking of that? So, thea, when, when that happens to a man yeah, and let's just stay on that kind of little thing what, yeah, what happens to him? So what does he do? How's he? How's he react? I'll tell you. 20:35 - Speaker 3 I was just talking to somebody yesterday who's in this scenario. He's early on in marriage. The sex life is not what he thought it would be. Wife has, you know, some, some challenges that are contributing and he does not know how to cope. So for him there's almost this entitlement, because it's like well, I have my needs and they're supposed to get met well, yeah so if I'm not going to get sex, I'm going to masturbate, I'm going to watch porn. 20:59 That'll be my thing, because somehow I need to get. I need to kind of get my fill for me. Yeah, exactly right. So this is selfish. Yeah, we become incredibly selfish and it becomes all about us. I mean, his wife is in pain, his wife is just begging for a little bit of grace and mercy no, and for him. He's just, he's too upset, he's too he's feeling too bad for himself. 21:21 - Speaker 1 easy. It's easy to be selfish. Yeah, because we're negative by nature. Yes, and it's Dude. 21:26 - Speaker 3 We're born selfish man, especially when we're talking about sexuality. We're born with Maslow's hierarchy Right. Just planted on us. 21:35 - Speaker 1 Me? Yes, I need water. Air, yeah, fuel, yeah, shelter, yeah, I need this for my survival. 21:44 - Speaker 3 Yes, and it's the greatest biblical violation. Like you talked about, what is sexual morality? It's healthy sexual relationships between a husband and a wife. Any violation of that, that's my definition of sexual immorality. But if I were to go a layer deeper and I was going to say if you really want to be the ultimate husband for your wife, especially in a sexual environment, just make it about her. You will get everything you want. If you just make it about her and the message of pornography is the exact opposite it's make it about you and then the rest is just gravy on top. Do you know who Sheila Rae Gregoire is? Have you heard of her? She's a Christian researcher on sexuality and she identified what she calls the orgasm gap in Christians. 22:32 - Speaker 1 Okay, Okay, we do have Nancy Houston, who's been on here a number of times. Okay, she's a close friend. Okay, got it, she's written a book on that, the orgasm gap Well, she's written a book on the whole deal. Oh, okay, okay, cool, the orgasm gap well, she's written a book on the whole deal. Oh, okay, okay, cool, you know. So, uh, she and her husband ron, very close friends of judy and I, yeah, and we, we talk about these things at dinner or whatever when we're together. Yeah, I always joke. You know she's our sex therapist yeah, right, yeah she's explained so many of these things to us. 22:58 Explain this because this is a real deal that people deal with yeah, okay, two, two, two things that came out of Sheila's research. How do you say her last name again? 23:08 - Speaker 3 Sheila Ray W-R-A-Y. Gregoire. 23:10 - Speaker 2 Okay. 23:11 - Speaker 3 Yep Sheila Ray Gregoire. The Great Sex Rescue is her book that presented all the findings, the two that really stuck out to me. There's actually a third one we should share a little bit later when we talk about single guys. The first finding was the orgasm gap. So what she found is 95 of christian men in their marriages experience an orgasm when they have sex 95, 47 of women, so there's a 48 gap yeah, I lived that gap yeah I lived that gap 100, I did too uh dude, I'm like and and I remember when uh, I remember uh getting ed wheat's book. 23:47 - Speaker 1 This goes old school, right. Okay, uh called, intended for pleasure okay, no, I haven't heard of it yeah, I know, because I don't even know if it's in print, dr ed wheat okay it's like 50 years ago, bro, okay and uh. It was called intended for pleasure and in the book was like diagrams oh, wow, and I'm like I'm already married. 24:08 - Speaker 2 We're married. 24:09 - Speaker 1 We're into this a little while and I'm looking at it and my wife's going see that part right there. That's the part I was talking about. I go oh. 24:22 - Speaker 2 I had no idea. 24:23 - Speaker 4 Yeah. 24:28 - Speaker 1 Like you know, and it's like I think, and this is what I told my, my sons and son-in-law and tell men is go find this stuff out, find a christian place to find this out. Yeah, there are so many tools now and resources yes houston's one sheila uh ray because you need to know. Yeah, you need to know. 24:44 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 24:45 - Speaker 1 You need to know yes, because if you love your wife, you want her to be blessed. 24:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's a Christian term. Yeah, yeah. 24:53 - Speaker 1 But you want her to experience full sexuality with you, so you guys are fully, yeah. And I remember my wife going dude, I know this is a little vulnerable, but I remember her saying one time well, I'm glad we got that figured out seriously, seriously. 25:09 - Speaker 3 But what? That was a real deal, but what a difference. 25:11 - Speaker 1 But that gap is real and I I think it made me I'm like okay, I'm, I'm happy, yeah, this is yeah, it's way more enjoyable and, like I said, it's not about you. 25:20 - Speaker 3 If you make it about her, you'll get everything you want, and more yeah, that's why I tell guys, flowers work man. 25:25 Dude flowers go a long way. Oh my gosh. So that was the first thing. So I think the orgasm gap is driven by two things. One is pornography, which tells you it's all about you. The second thing, unfortunately, is teachings in the church that say you know, women don't deny your husband. It's kind of this culture where, again, it's it's very much about the man and his needs and if he wants to, you say yes and whatever. And what her research uncovered is that for couples that are of that belief, the woman's experience bodily in her body is the equivalent of somebody with ptsd. Wow, during sex it is so unenjoyable for the woman because she doesn't feel like she can say no, and it's actually traumatizing to her body as a result. 26:15 - Speaker 1 It was Willard Harley that was a man, willard Harley, okay. Dr Harley, who wrote His Needs, her Needs, and he was a guest on here, okay. And it was really the book was all about her needs, but but I said when he came on, I said, hey, I just want to thank you for one thing. He said what's that? I said thank you for putting his needs first and the title. Yeah, dude, he goes. Nobody's ever said that to me before that is hilarious so I oh my gosh, he goes no interviewer. 26:47 in the 40 years the book's been out has ever said that. 26:50 - Speaker 2 to me that's hilarious. 26:53 - Speaker 1 But it's a real thing, that is a man, that is such the orgasm gap, the orgasm gap. 26:58 - Speaker 3 Okay, real. Thing. 27:01 - Speaker 1 And I will tell you that we've counseled, my wife has counseled. I wouldn't do it together, necessarily, but because we know these things and because we're really tuned into this and because our friend Nancy has written books on it and because we study these things, she has counseled a lot of women who, like it's painful, like sex is painful, yes, but she was taught in the church. 27:23 Church, you don't deny your husband. Yes and well. And then my wife would go well. But what are you doing? She goes well. I'm just, you know. It just hurts, but it's just. You know what I'm doing because it's for him, it's crazy I go wait, hang on a second. What about for you? Well, you know, I'm just doing for him no, no, no right does he not know this? 27:43 and there's been women who have told my wife no, he doesn't know, and she's felt and she and, amazingly, it had gone on for quite some time with one particular lady and she had never told her girlfriend, she had never discussed this. Yeah, a lot of times women will discuss these things yeah and she finally came, finally came and said I just got to tell you something, and then they solved that. They had that solved literally. Seriously, I know that's a next generation term. Literally 90 days. 28:17 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 28:19 - Speaker 1 And maybe less. Yeah, like it's all just cranked up. 28:24 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 28:28 - Speaker 1 And he actually didn't know. He just thought there's something wrong with her, she's cold, or yeah she, she doesn't, it's, it's about him. It cuts internalized must be me. Yep, I'm doing something wrong yes it's me or she doesn't like my body odor yeah, whatever right. 28:45 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a real thing, man, it is yeah. 28:47 - Speaker 1 These are things that we have to talk about. We have to study. Let me mention your book again, the Last Relapse because I think that's something that people need to look into in your ministry. Give us the website for the ministry. 29:02 - Speaker 3 So you know what? If people want the book, they can actually just follow me and DM me on Instagram. 29:06 - Speaker 1 Okay. Just DM me book and I'll send you a free copy. So, Sathiya Sam, we'll have it in the show notes. 29:09 - Speaker 3 Yeah, Sathiya me Sam, and we'll send you a free copy of the book. 29:13 - Speaker 1 Yeah, just DM me book Really. 29:14 - Speaker 3 Yeah. 29:18 - Speaker 1 Just send me a copy of the book. Yeah, dude Sam. 29:20 - Speaker 3 That's my entire blueprint how we've been able to help a thousand plus guys quit porn in the last few years. Wow, yeah. 29:26 - Speaker 1 So let me go back to this. Your dad's a pastor. 29:30 - Speaker 2 Yes. 29:31 - Speaker 1 Did they? 29:36 - Speaker 3 were they immigrants to Canada? Were your grandparents immigrants? Yeah, so a little more context. Dad was a third, so like I used to be a local church pastor before I started Deep Clean, so I was a fourth generation pastor. Before that there was a radical conversion from Hinduism to Christianity. We don't know a lot of the details because that person basically got ostracized by their family, started a brand new lineage and then it was my grandpa who immigrated. 29:57 - Speaker 1 So salvation happened in India. 29:59 - Speaker 3 In India Yep Four generations, five generations back. 30:01 - Speaker 1 And then your grandfather came to Canada. 30:04 - Speaker 3 Yeah, so my grandfather was really high up in the church of South India. Okay, and-. 30:09 - Speaker 1 Was this post-World War II? 30:11 - Speaker 3 This is post-World War II. 30:12 - Speaker 1 Because there was a large influx immigration into Canada. 30:15 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's right, he was born in 31, I think. So he immigrated in the 70s. But when he yeah, he basically immigrated because he ran into a bunch of corruption in the church, the higher he moved up and he kind of got tired of it. So he he actually came to nashville. Dude, he's got this wild story. I'll tell the story real quick. Um, he came to nashville and he was studying at uh, it's vanderbilt, I think. 30:36 He was studying it and he got invited to speak at a church and when he showed up to the church, um, they're like where, where's your turban? And he's like well, I'm Christian, I don't wear a turban. They're like, well, the congregation is expecting an Indian guy. You got to wear a turban, so they made him wrap a towel over his head while he preached, because he had to fit the mold. 31:00 - Speaker 1 Listen, listen, if you're listening to this on audio, audio, because it's basically the audio podcast on this one. But uh, dude, I just about fell on the floor yeah, legit. 31:10 - Speaker 3 I mean he's got these wild stories from the 70s, right when he immigrated to canada. They're like but that is so, tennessee, yeah, 100 well especially in the 70s right when he immigrated to canada they were like what's your last name? He's like uh, it's rajamoni in in india. In christian. What's your last name? He's like it's Rajamoni In India. In Christian Indian culture, your last name is your dad's first name, which is kind of cool to think your family name is your dad. 31:31 Same in what Singapore Yep A lot of those Asian cultures have it. Yeah, and other cultures as well. So the immigration officer goes you know that's going to be really hard for Canadians to pronounce. Do you have any other names? And he goes yeah, when I was eight he got baptized in India by a missionary from England. The missionary's name was Samuel, and so he added Sam to his name. So, he was Edward Sam Rajamoni and he said, well, yeah, Sam's kind of my middle name. And they're like, yeah, let's go with that work, and now that's our family name. 32:04 Yeah, so yeah, you know, my, my background is tumble. I don't know if you have you been to sri lanka or south india. So we, we have these ridiculous last names. You know, there's like there's seven a's in them and it's like nine syllables, so it's the opposite of like bulgaria, right czechoslovakia, where it's all consonants. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, of vowels, too many vowels, you guys should all get together, we'd cover the whole alphabet, probably between our names. 32:32 So when I tell people my last name's Sam, they're always like, yeah, but what's your actual last name? And I'm like, no, it's actually my last name Because yeah, but grandpa. So anyways, the Christian lineage was really deep, so that I think huge part of the story. And to circle back, I wouldn't say I was really addicted to pornography until I was in university. 32:49 - Speaker 1 Okay. 32:50 - Speaker 3 Because I would literally plan my days around it. 32:54 - Speaker 1 It was like get up at 7 am. Up until that time it was just sort of this undercurrent. 32:57 - Speaker 3 Compulsion. It's a bad habit. 32:59 - Speaker 1 I think I've got the same experience. 33:01 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you know it was this kind of there kind of the background noise. 33:06 - Speaker 1 Yes, yeah, and then you get into this place where you're on your own, yeah, and there's no. Uh, you had a great phrase barriers to entry. Barriers to entry, yeah, you're trying to. Um, you know, for young men, yeah, you want to. Uh, take the barrier to entry to an older age that's right. 33:22 - Speaker 3 Delay is the way. Delay is the way. 33:24 - Speaker 1 Yeah, 100 yeah and so, uh, and then all of a sudden, you're University yeah, so in university. 33:30 - Speaker 3 So now I got my own laptop and then I'm under tons of stress trying to achieve um academically, and so that's where I would. You know I was planning my days around. It couldn't really go a day without it. It was, it was the thing I looked forward to. If nothing else went my way, at least I had pornography and that that was sort of the, the pinnacle of the addiction. 33:48 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I had a man once tell me um, it's the only place that I have a moment of peace yes yeah, and I didn't get it because it's I bet you that guy had adhd. 34:03 - Speaker 3 I don't know A lot of our clients with ADHD say that, yeah, yeah. 34:07 - Speaker 1 It was the only place he found, a place of peace. 34:09 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 34:09 - Speaker 1 Well, this man was dealing with the thing that he had found out that his dad was not his dad. His dad was actually a John. 34:15 - Speaker 2 Oh, wow. 34:15 - Speaker 1 His mom, who he found out was a prostitute, wow, and this guy had taken him in, and so he couldn't figure out why there was all these disconnects with his quote. Unquote single dad. Turned out his dad wasn't his dad. The guy got drunk, they got mad, they got in a fight, they're hitting each other and he's like at 18 or 17,. 34:33 - Speaker 3 His dad finally tells him Wow or 17, his dad finally tells him wow, yeah, I was just a client of your mom, isn't? 34:41 - Speaker 1 that something that's something else. How do you deal with that, right? Yeah, so that became his place of peace and I get that. Yeah, so helping him walk through that. Yeah, actually, and this is a good point right here to say this and I'm gonna get back into, don't forget- yeah, mark these. 34:54 - Speaker 3 yeah. Yeah, I got a time stamp, don't worry, we'll circle back, okay. 34:58 - Speaker 1 Timestamp. 34:59 - Speaker 3 That's good, so I'm old school. Bookmark them, you're like timestamp them. 35:02 - Speaker 2 Okay, different generation, you got it, that's right. Okay, same idea. Yeah, I got that now. 35:22 - Speaker 1 I'm going to use that. The reason you are effective at what you're doing and deep clean is so effective is because you're specialists. Right, you're really good at what you do. Yeah, you you're. You know, you're a very smart guy. You can do a lot of things, right, you can get a lot of things done with a lot of stuff, but you're really good at this. Yeah, and one of the things that I'm stressing to leaders pastors, men find specialists, christian specialists. If you've got a marriage deal that isn't based on a porn issue, but if you've got a marriage conflict, find a specialist in that. If you've got an addiction alcohol addiction find somebody who's really good at that. And the beauty of the culture that we're in right now we are in a culture of specialists, specialization, and so the beauty of that is, as a pastor man, you can't carry that weight, bro. You cannot carry that weight to be everything for every guy that walks in your office. 36:17 Or the guys that don't walk in your office, because usually it's the wife that's telling your wife something and you're going. Oh man I need to go talk to this guy about porn yeah, and I really don't know how to get off of it. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. So this is why I'm recommending you know the last relapse why I'm repping it. Recommending deep clean yeah cynthia sam s-aa-m. That's s-a-t-h-i-y-a. Yeah, sam, and that's your. Is that that's your handle on uh? 36:44 - Speaker 3 yeah too. Yes, it's the sathia. Me sam, I got my middle initials and me sam yeah. 36:49 - Speaker 1 So my point is find specialists like you, yeah, who do this, and that's why a christian men's network you know where, if you will, uh, broad in terms of your spiritual basis, the foundation of who you are in the word, your identity in christ yes right now you've got this thing with this or this thing with let's find specialists and let's, let's kill this thing, man, yeah let's find the guy that's got you know, that's got the. 37:14 You know it's got the ability to slingshot yeah who can hit the giant in the middle of the forehead? Yeah, in between all the armor, yeah and kill this thing. Let's kill the giant, yeah, so that's why I'm recommending you and that's why I'm standing behind this and I've watched you over time yeah as you've gone full-time 2021. You went full-time, that's right, yeah, yeah uh, this stuff, this, because this stuff. 37:40 What you're talking about is this stuff. Because we started talking about how man is in a relationship with his wife and 48% of women don't orgasm. 95% of the men do. Right, it's easier for a guy, yeah, right, in one sense, yeah, it should be just as easy for a woman, and in fact in some ways it is. Nancy Houston talks about the clitoris and the amazing what it is. 38:07 - Speaker 4 Yeah, and then find out what it's capable of. 38:08 - Speaker 1 Yeah. 38:09 - Speaker 3 What it's capable of. 38:10 - Speaker 1 Yes, how actually large it is. It's actually an inverted penis Right Inside the right inside the woman's body. Yeah, all this stuff is awesome but the fact is is that find somebody who helps you do this. 38:22 - Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, and when you've got this issue with porn, let's find the expert that yeah helps you kill this giant I think this is important because and again, whether people work with us or not, I'll actually lay out some criteria that people should look look at if they want to get help in this area. Let's do that but the one thing I'll say is we are getting so many clients now who are like dude. I've been in therapy for five years. I've been getting coached by someone for X number of years, but the therapist was a generalist. 38:50 - Speaker 4 So they understood it a little bit. 38:52 - Speaker 3 But generally, even like, unfortunately, most professional counselors are not getting educated properly on pornography addiction, because it's a little bit contentious, you know, some people don't think it's a real addiction and blah, blah, blah, and so we have a lot of guys who are like man in one session. I got way more value out of this because they're just, they're getting specialized focus, you know, and once you've helped a thousand people, you've seen enough Freudian and Jungian background in current psychology would basically want to normalize the fact, not the conversation around it. 39:20 - Speaker 1 Normalize the habit, yes, and say it's okay, Don't put yourself down because of that because that's not really who you are. And so, essentially, if you're a Christian, it's Christian. Gnosticism yeah, because Gnosticism is, it's your body doing it it's not really you. 39:36 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, exactly Because your soul and spirit are separated. 39:38 - Speaker 1 There's a separation, yeah, from your physical nature, so it's Gnosticism. 39:42 - Speaker 3 Yes, right. 39:43 - Speaker 2 Yes. 39:43 - Speaker 1 And so it's just okay, man, it's a little place where you can be, yep, but what it's doing is it's grabbing. I liken it to steal, kill and destroy. So we look at it and we, as men, we're very physical about that. 40:01 But, it's not a physical thing, it's spiritual. What the enemy wants to do is steal your dream. What the enemy wants to do is take your identity. What the enemy wants to do is destroy your ability to reproduce spiritually in Christ, in your children, in your workplace. That's the attack. And that's what porn does. Yeah, because it takes away your ability to think. Well, yeah, fogs the mind. Yeah, what does porn do in a man's Like? You did this thing with this. These guys have 8 million downloads right, yeah. This secular. 40:36 Mind pump, yeah, yeah, what did you tell them pornography does in a man's mind? 40:40 - Speaker 3 so there's four things that happen to the brain, okay, when you watch pornography. We talked about the first one. It's desensitization, right, the second thing is sensitization so so desensitization is? 40:52 I built up a tolerance that would be a good equivalent. Okay, sensitization is things that are not sexual, remind me of pornography. So there's cues that elicit these cravings that really have no business causing any kind of arousal. They're triggers. Yeah, they're triggers. And so sensitization like somebody uses you know, like this is the best example for guys. You're 16 years old and your teacher uses a funny term that has like a sexual connotation and you guys all laugh about it. 41:24 That's sensitization snicker yeah, yeah, like haha. They said she came, you know right and that that word doesn't actually mean that, but there's a sensitization in the brain that's going on now again, as a teenager, like, whatever, you're being a teenage boy, you're being a punk. 41:38 - Speaker 1 No, no, no, but this is a 46-year-old guy watching the Super Bowl. Yes, that's exactly. And something comes on and all of a sudden, boom, sensitization, you're somewhere else, because it's a trigger thing. 41:50 - Speaker 3 Yes, yeah, so it's non-sexual things causing sexual arousal. 41:54 - Speaker 1 Okay Well, actually super wide. That would cause that it would be sexual. 41:58 - Speaker 3 Yeah, true, because, yeah, there's not a lot of clothing on those ads. 42:02 - Speaker 1 But I'm just saying that there are other things. So what you're saying is a non-sexual thing. So I'm driving along, I'm in the car, I'm with my wife, I'm minding my own business, I'm being a good guy and something triggers me. That's a roadside sign. That didn't mean that. 42:20 - Speaker 3 Yeah, I'll give you. I haven't actually shared this story very much. I was early twenties, I had just given my life to the Lord like really properly committed my life and still struggling with pornography and went to a conference. There's this evangelist coming in and she was so passionate. 42:37 um, you know, I'm based in canada, so she's all about like setting canada on fire for god and dude she. She looked like this porn star that I used to watch all the time, and like I again. Just a great example where it's like man, I'm in the house of god they're trying to be such a good guy. Yeah, I'm there for the right reasons but my brain has been sensitized and, like I would love to tell you that I at least, like, had the decency to not go home and but you know what I did? 43:03 - Speaker 1 yeah, and masturbate, but the thing is, is that, uh, I think that is so real man for guys today? Yeah, because think of how many doppelgangers we see. Right, yeah, right like somebody sent me a text the other day so hey, I didn't know you were at the daytona 500. 43:18 Oh, my friend tony sent me this uh, it's a photo of a guy that from the side looks like me. Yeah, he goes. Hey, I didn't know. You were at daytona 500, were you there? He says no, this guy was on tv, he's your dover ganger that's hilarious like you're this, is you yeah? So, uh. So now we've seen enough images, that something right connects. Does this brain transfer this little and also dude? 43:44 - Speaker 2 that's same eyes same, whatever same hair. 43:49 - Speaker 1 Okay, sensitization, okay, four things. 43:51 - Speaker 3 Third thing is a reduced stress response. 43:54 - Speaker 1 What does that mean? 43:56 - Speaker 3 It means that you don't have the same capacity to manage stress in your life and this is very synonymous with alcoholism. So when people become, you know, belligerent drunks, they have a very poor stress response. They can't actually handle much in life and that's when you see their life start to kind of internally crumble. So very similar effect with pornography. And again, this is all research. I mean there's 200 plus peer reviewed studies demonstrating all these changes in the brain. The fourth one is to me is maybe the most disparaging, and that is hypofrontality. 44:33 - Speaker 1 So there's a it has to do with the frontal cortex. Yeah, exactly. 44:36 - Speaker 3 So you've got the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for your sense of self, your value as a person, your type of identity, all that stuff neurologically would happen in the prefrontal cortex. And hypo. Hypo means less, so hypofrontality means less activity in that part of your brain. You are literally becoming wired to be like an animal. You know primal desires. Primal desires, primal instant gratification, no sense of delaying gratification, long-term thinking, and this is where we see like low self-esteem, this is where guys make poor decisions. Um, all that kind of stuff starts to happen when your brain experiences it all right and this, that's the area that that and I didn't know that term. 45:14 - Speaker 1 That's very cool. That's why you're on the podcast. 45:17 - Speaker 2 Yes, sir yeah, that's why you're on the podcast. Yes, sir, yeah, that's why you're on Brave man Podcast. 45:19 - Speaker 1 Thank you for being on it, and I'm talking with Sathiya Sam, with Deep Clean and the book Last Relapse, and we're talking about pornography and you're a specialist in this, not only because of your own journey, but because you had a desire you were pastoring. You've done other things like this, you've helped people in ministry, but you had a desire you were pastoring. You've done other things like this, you've helped people in ministry, but you had a heart. Genuinely, I want to help some guys get set free of this thing. 45:46 - Speaker 3 Yeah, a hundred percent. 45:47 - Speaker 1 And so. But this hyper hypofrontality one of the things I talked to men about a lot is what porn is going to do. What's going to happen is it's not just the shame that you may feel because of some sort of guilt or your upbringing or whatever At the moment you're watching a pornographic image. It's what happens later as you don't connect the dots properly in the syntaxes of your mind. All these little things of your mind, okay, all these little things. And so, as they've studied and I think this might be in Jeremy Wiles' Conquer series, where they study the brain and you ask a man, why'd you do that? And you go dude, I don't know. It's just kind of connected Because there's a channel of connection. In all these different billions of different connections that happen in your brain all day, there's a new channel that's actually been developed between two areas of your brain that wasn't there before. 46:43 - Speaker 3 That weren't supposed to be. Yeah, it wasn't supposed to be. Yeah, that's right, See. 46:47 - Speaker 1 Sathiya, this is where I believe when the Bible says the washing of the water, of the word yeah, Someday, I think some smart guys like you researchers are going to find out. It's a real thing. 47:02 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that it's, real yeah. 47:04 - Speaker 1 That when you get into the Word and you get into prayer and you get into a group of men and you're praying for each other and you're praying with your wife, or if you're a single man, you're praying with your brothers over this stuff and you get real. I believe the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit actually closes up those gaps. 47:21 - Speaker 3 I believe it too 100%. 47:23 - Speaker 1 I believe it happens in men's life and that's why 2 Corinthians 5.17, when he says you're a new creation, it's not just oh yeah, you're a better guy. 47:32 - Speaker 3 No, I think something actually physically happens, not just a new creation the old has passed away. 47:40 - Speaker 2 Dude, it's gone. Yeah, it actually physically happens, not just a new creation. 47:42 - Speaker 1 The old has passed away. 47:42 - Speaker 2 Dude died. 47:43 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's it see, that's where I'm at, man, and that's why. That's why what you do is so well and important, because new creation that means. 47:53 That means a little girl has a new dad yeah, that means a little boy has a new father that's it who actually not only hugs him and loves him I still kiss my boys on the cheek and they're in their 40s bro you know yeah I mean it's like, uh, and then does what you said, yeah, which is help guide, guard and govern, which has helped guard their life by normalizing the conversation about who they are and the drives that they have and the sense of reproduction that helps a man become who he is. 48:26 - Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it. You know, one of the most interesting findings, I think, in the last little bit around this subject, is that the things that we're drawn to, the things that trigger us, the kind of content we watch, the desires we have, they all actually give us clues into our solution, what we're really after. So, like I'll give you an example, One of the top search words on pornography sites year in, year out, usually top five is I won't use the term, but it's mom-related content, stepmom or like there's another term. 49:02 - Speaker 1 Okay, so this is a Freudian thing. 49:04 - Speaker 3 Yeah, yes, yes, but there's another layer to it. So yeah, Freudian would say like yeah, you know, it's the detachment from your mother, it's the desire to have a sexual relationship with your mom and you're jealous of your dad because he's got that relationship. And da-da-da-da, and you're jealous of your dad because he's got that relationship. And dah, dah, dah, dah. Kind of the war within right. 49:19 - Speaker 1 And then you get to go 10 years into therapy where the guy says, yeah, it's okay, yeah right, yeah, yeah that's right. 49:24 - Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly exactly what we found-. 49:26 - Speaker 1 Come back next week. 49:27 - Speaker 3 What we found and my story was Keep dealing with it. My story was a good example made. It is when I looked to the church. They didn't have any answers for me. I got really frustrated, and not in a resentful like the church has let me down, but like dude, I knew I wasn't the only one. I felt like I was the only person struggling, but I also knew there's got to be other guys who are running into the same wall. So Deep Clean is the solution that I always wished I had, truthfully, that's what it is. 50:01 - Speaker 1 It was planted when I was still struggling. Well, thank you for doing that. Here's the thing, and when we talk about this, because you talk about the church. Now I know some of your background, of where you've been, who you worked with. You were with some hardcore guys, man, yeah, very fortunate, I'm talking about people that are changing the world. They're fired up. They've got schools around the world. 50:17 They're fired up They've got schools around the world. They're teaching prophetic word. They're teaching speak life in your culture. Yeah, I mean, these were not just. Hey, you go to church on Sunday morning and don't sit in the back row. 50:30 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 50:31 - Speaker 1 You sit in the middle. 50:32 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 50:32 - Speaker 1 Like you're really committed. So, you know what I'm saying. 50:36 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 50:36 - Speaker 1 So what I wanted to do is make sure that the context is you were really being discipled by some great people, yes, traveling with great men, seeing God do some things, yeah, and so when you talk about this, the fact is, we're not talking about some wussy thing. 50:57 - Speaker 3 No, yeah, I wasn't dabbling in church and it wasn't just that. Yeah, these guys are moving in the power of God and very respected Some of the generals of the faith, I would say, in the last couple of decades Totally, totally. So I think that was part of my frustration as well was like how did we not have answers? 51:11 for such a gaping issue in the body of Christ In the world. Yeah, and so for me, I had three years of, you know, relying on praying, more deliverance ministry willpower, white knuckling really hard for a brown guy to white knuckle anything, by the way. Um, I mean, I put in the, I put in the work, you know, and I go to conferences, courses like I. 51:33 I was not closed off about anything right and nothing really seemed to work in the last 18 months when I actually started to experience freedom like I really do believe in, like freedom from pornography not just being clean and not just saying like I don't watch anymore, but actual freedom, biblical freedom. What really changed the thing for me was actually digging into the heart like surprise, surprise, the heart still needed some work, some attention. 51:56 - Speaker 1 Into your heart, not the heart of the issue. No, no, no, my heart Going to your heart, which is an identity issue definition. 52:01 - Speaker 3 Yeah, identity issue and tying it into kind of what I was saying about the keyword search before. One of the things I discovered is I would say my relationship with my mom was good, but she is Indian culture, a shy personality, and one of the things that I uncovered was I actually grew up feeling neglect from my mom for a lot of my life, and not that she was neglectful, but I felt like there wasn't really an emotional relationship with her and it drove a lot of me chasing girls and then eventually watching a lot of pornography. 52:31 It was compensating for this kind of deficiency and that's an example of the content that you're watching, because I would watch a lot of that content, those keywords I mentioned earlier. That was a lot of the content I watched, and the details of what I was watching actually gave me clues into what was really going on in my heart, and sometimes we ignore those details because we don't really want to talk about it. It's a bit uncomfortable and often we find with our clients that actually all the gold is in finding out, like, what are you actually really after and why are you after? 53:01 - Speaker 4 it, and what kind of content do you watch? 53:04 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's often the fastest way that we can get to the root. 53:08 - Speaker 1 So the content would give you a clue as to where the pain point is. 53:13 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 53:14 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so we're going to wrap this up in a minute because I could talk to you all day. 53:18 So we're going to wrap this up in a minute because I could talk to you all day. But the other thing is part of what I want to do on Brave Men Podcast and part of what we do with the Christian Men's Network is King David said this in Psalms. He said when I taste truth, it tastes like honey, and my point on that is that when we hear truth, there's something about it that resonates deep within us and a man listening right now is saying you know what these guys are talking about, something really true, and this podcast isn't going to solve that. But I'm going to make a decision right now that I'm going to go get this thing done. Going to make a decision right now that I'm going to go get this thing done, yeah, and if it's whether it's the last relapse with Sathiya sam and uh and uh deep clean, or whether it's uh with james craft or with, uh, some of your other friends and and men that are working in this sphere, yeah, I'm going to do something about it yeah, yeah that's what we're after. 54:17 - Speaker 2 Yeah, is is uh, I'm going to do something about it. 54:18 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's what we're after. Yeah, I'm going to step over the line what are some things and give me just a few things right now, because we can talk about it all day and we can't solve the whole thing in one sentence, but what we're doing is opening up the conversation. 54:31 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 54:31 - Speaker 1 And for a guy to say you know what it's like I mean when you said that it's like Elisha. Sorry, it's like Elisha going hey, I'm the only guy. 54:40 - Speaker 3 Yeah right, meanwhile there's 8,000 of them. 54:46 - Speaker 1 And God says no, no, no, and my deal is Elisha didn't know those other dudes. He's really serious, he didn't know those guys. 54:52 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 54:52 - Speaker 1 How come he didn't know, because he's focused on his deal. 54:59 - Speaker 2 He's doing a great work. Yeah, called fire from heaven. 55:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, he healed a. I mean, he raised a kid from the dead. Yeah, so this heavyweight man is dealing with suicidal thoughts yeah depression, he's tired, nothing's going right, even it's like. 55:16 It's like um joshua, after jericho, after massive victory, right, yeah, in fact, when abraham came out of israel, he, he went a different route to not even go by jericho. Okay, this is really fascinating. And to me, joshua then sends a bunch of guys into ai god didn't tell him go, do that, right. A bunch of his friends get killed, they have a total defeat. And Joshua lays on the ground and is laying there, going. We should have never come into the promised land, we should have stayed. All this bad has happened. I go, dude, you just had Jericho. 55:53 And at this point, at that moment, he is absolutely, totally depressed and feels like he's screwed up. He's the leader he messed up. Nothing's ever going to go right. And God says this phrase to him somewhere in Joshua's seventh chapter, says this great phrase. And I want to say this to the men right now who have been listening, saying I'm the only guy, I'm the only one, or this will never work. And God says this to Joshua get up, why are you laying on the ground? Such a great term, such a great phrase. It's like dude, what are you doing? 56:35 - Speaker 2 Why are you laying on the ground? 56:37 - Speaker 1 Because there's a website right here that's going to help you yeah so just do that yeah and do it while you're strong right now, because you're listening to this. Do something right now. Make a choice right now. Make a decision take the computer. I mean I tell guys all this time take your computer, make sure your wife knows all your passwords, right, definitely, why? Because policemen no, because you're just open, yeah, and because, who knows, you're going to get in a car wreck and they can't open your bank account, yeah, so there's that True Practicals. 57:04 - Speaker 3 Practicals yeah, it's like practical stuff yeah. 57:06 - Speaker 1 But I mean, my grandkids know how to open up all my. They know my, the little four digit thing stuff. So what could a man do right now? Give me just a few things for a guy to do right now. 57:21 - Speaker 3 Yeah. So let me preface this by saying we've been sold a lie. I think in our society that knowledge is power and we're the most intelligent, knowledge-filled people in the world and we've never been more powerless. 57:35 So I think the worst thing you could do is listen to this podcast and do nothing. James wrote that faith without works is dead. So I think the worst thing you could do is listen to this podcast and do nothing. James wrote that faith without works is dead. So I think the best thing you can do is do something like. We mentioned some of the resources we have. I think for people that want to start. The best thing I've learned in the research like again, I comb the research very regularly is that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection wow that's so good. 58:01 so whether that's you reach out to somebody is that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. Wow, that's so good. So whether that's you reach out to somebody that you trust, who's the most trusted person in your life that you know isn't going to judge you, whether you reach out to them, whether you join a community, whether you maybe start following some channels online and just start learning some things through the content just doing something you haven't done before is going to go a long way. 58:23 - Speaker 1 And the more connection oriented it is, the better. There might be some men listening right now who say man, in particular if you're a pastor in the faith realm. You're in ministry, you go, dude, I don't have anybody to talk to and what I will tell you is go find a new friend. I'm serious. Go find a guy that you know across town yeah, that the pastors that you go. You know what that guy works in this world. 58:43 I'm gonna go talk to him yeah, you know, I have a friend uh, he's actually an extremely well-known author that uh was at his worst point in his life and a man called him who was a pastor of another church says hey, hey, man, are you doing? Okay, he goes. No, I'm not. 59:02 - Speaker 2 Wow. 59:03 - Speaker 1 And out of the blue right God just led that guy and that became his connection. 59:07 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 59:07 - Speaker 1 In other words, what you're saying, Sathiya, is go find that connection, find that guy. You may know the guy. 59:13 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 59:14 - Speaker 1 Or you may know somebody who knows the guy. 59:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. 59:17 - Speaker 1 That is such a great case, what else? 59:19 - Speaker 3 And you know, I think in the digital world there's no excuse, like you can find somebody so far removed from your life that you have no risk of being found out, and you're good, that's true. 59:27 So I think that goes a long way. I would say the second thing that people should really do is focus on building the emotional life. Emotional health is probably the biggest thing missing. How do I do that? So I would say two things. Number one is find somebody you can talk to, um, that can ask you good questions, whether that's a friend or whatever, just to hang around the campfire. 59:45 Hang for coffee yeah go hunting with somebody, whatever the deal is you know what one of my mentors actually this we could even go one step back if you don't have that person. What my mentor because I was. I was emotionally inept. I lost three friends to suicide in high school and I learned don't feel, it's just too painful, just don't feel. And it drove a lot of my porn addiction. So one of my mentors told me every day just ask yourself, how am I feeling? And like the first week it was like okay, that was a waste of time. But week two it was like, oh, I think I feel something. 01:00:14 You know, I think there's something there wow you know, and just little by little starting to build that emotional awareness. That's, that's the first pillar we teach in our recovery system, which, again, um, like there's, yeah, there's a whole system. People can get through the book if they want to learn it, but, um, and if that is too much, of course we want to learn it, not if yeah, but if that's too much. The other thing people can do is journal, and I think journaling is actually like some people would prefer to process something written. It's a bit more private or they're more articulate that way. So, journal and just right on the top of the page, what am I feeling? How am I feeling? We give all of our clients the feel wheel. You can Google it, but it's literally just language around emotion. I still use the feel wheel, like I'm still kind of inept a little bit. I'm a lot better than I used to be, but these little tools go a long way. That's what all those are. Yeah, there you go. 01:01:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, look at, look at this like eight of them. Let's go. I just pulled those out of the back because I'm going to go back through some old notes oh, I like that 20 years old oh, come on, that's great, so you get it yeah but I don't always journal my feelings 01:01:10 no, but it doesn't have to always be my thoughts, okay yeah, and maybe you guys go, I don't know about the feely thing. And what are your thoughts? Yeah, start there. Yeah, and here's maybe another way to look at it is. Well, I don't know what my thoughts are. Well, if you had some thoughts, what do you think they would be? 01:01:27 - Speaker 3 Yeah, right, If you had some emotions, what do you think they'd be Smart. That's really smart. Yeah, I think those are some of the best things and things. And then I would say and I'll tie a couple loose ends together here from the interview if you're gonna go get help from someone, um, you're looking for three things. Okay, so you're looking for a knowledge base. Um, they have to be knowledgeable about the subject. A lot of people just say, like, don't watch porn, it's bad for you, but they don't actually have a good knowledge base of what's going on neurologically and everything else that comes with it. 01:01:56 So you're saying, look for a specialist who's actually licensed or has come out of Licensed, or at least has something established A school of that, yeah, yeah, they've been informed. Number two is you got a badge? Yeah. Number two is you want somebody who's got a proven track record and ideally with your type, so like we're really good with professional Christian men 25 to 45. 01:02:15 Okay, if you come and work with us, the odds are stacked in your favor. We're just really good with that demographic. I was high achieving, so I think we naturally just have a bend to help people that are like that. We've worked with a lot of athletes and actors and business owners and all that kind of stuff. And the third thing and this is not necessary, but it definitely helps is when they have their own struggle. The person that you're getting help from has been through it themselves. 01:02:36 Okay, all right, because they're going to understand those conversations at a much deeper level. 01:02:41 - Speaker 1 That's a fascinating conversation. I can't get off into it. But Jesus never did drugs. 01:02:46 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:02:47 - Speaker 1 But he helps people free from drugs Right. 01:02:50 - Speaker 3 But Hebrews said that we don't have a priest who or we have a priest who can sympathize with us in every way. 01:02:55 - Speaker 4 Who understands everything. 01:02:57 - Speaker 3 Tempted in every way, tempted in every way, tempted in every way. 01:03:00 - Speaker 1 So in other words, temptation's not sin. 01:03:02 - Speaker 3 It couldn't be. Being tempted is not sin, Not if Jesus was tempted in every way Otherwise. 01:03:06 - Speaker 1 Jesus would have sinned Right. So if you're being tempted, don't immediately just hammer yourself with this old holiness guilt hammer. Yeah, that's right. I got tempted well, it must be who I am. 01:03:22 - Speaker 3 Yeah, that's right but would you rather get help from the pastor? We know, if I had two pastors, we know they've both been tempted sexually, but would you rather? Would you rather get help from the one who has figured it out and isn't really tempted that much anymore, right? Or the guy who's still trying to figure it out? Yeah, right, like again the person who's got he's got more authority, because he's figured it out. 01:03:41 - Speaker 2 I like it. 01:03:42 - Speaker 3 No, I like it. I like people playing devil's advocate. It's good. The other thing I want to say I want to talk to single men real quick. 01:03:48 - Speaker 2 Yeah, please. 01:03:49 - Speaker 3 Because when I was single, I remember one day I was talking to be having sex regularly. 01:03:56 I'm not going to struggle with porn anymore. And dude he almost reached over the table to smack me. He was so mad that those words came out of my mouth and I didn't get. I was 20, I was like 22. And I'm like what? And he's like dude, he's like marriage is a magn. 01:04:18 And I had a prayer I really believed. Thank God, I had a mentor that I trusted and I prayed God, okay, if this is true, then God, whoever my future wife is, keep her from me until I get married. So in November sorry, in February 2016, I had my last relapse. And in November 2016, nine months later, I met Shloma. Wow, and I really do believe that God honors those bold prayers. Now I obviously had to do my work Like it was a couple of years of putting in the work and actually getting to that place, but I think God honors those things and I think, especially if you're single, the best gift you can give your future spouse is sexual integrity. And if you can figure that out now, she will thank you. And and if you can figure that out now, she will thank you. And Sheila Ray Gregoire's work showed that guys who quit pornography when they're single they maybe bring some residual impacts into their marriage, but it's nominal. 01:05:08 And so there's two things to glean from that. Number one if you're single, quit, quit right now. But number two if you're married and you're like, oh I wish you're going to raise kids, so if you can't do it for yourself, give them that gift. Go be the role model, be the example. We believe if you change the man, you change the world. So go change the world by getting clean of pornography, walking in integrity, setting an example and letting your kids be the people who get to be that example to theirs. 01:05:35 - Speaker 1 Dude, that's awesome man. Deep Clean is the ministry, is that the website? Deepcleancoachingcom? 01:05:42 - Speaker 3 deepcleancoachingcom yeah, that'll give you everything you need there, because I'm looking at sathiasamcom yeah they. They all redirect to each other. 01:05:49 - Speaker 1 They're all the same get there yeah, dude, look at that photo of you. Man, there's no photoshop thing. That looks pretty good I have good skin. 01:05:57 - Speaker 3 I I mean, what can I say? I'm giving you a bad time. 01:06:03 - Speaker 1 I love this stuff because this is, to me, about freedom, about living without constraints, just being like you get tempted or something happens, or you get mad and you say a swear word and you go, and you can almost swear word, you know, and you go and you can almost, in a sense, laugh at yourself, going, dude, I am so human. Yeah, because that happens to me, I'll see. You know like we're talking about, uh, an ad or, let's say, super bowl, that's so easy. But something and you just go, gosh, she's beautiful, and you and you go dude, I am so human. 01:06:39 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you know. 01:06:40 - Speaker 1 Or you say something, something happens. You get really mad and you're like, ah, you just react out of your human Dude, I'm so human, yeah, and God knew I was going to be human. 01:06:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:06:51 - Speaker 1 And he sent Jesus because I'm human, yeah. 01:06:55 - Speaker 3 The first human, and Jesus was tempted in every way as a human. 01:06:57 - Speaker 1 And so I can just live free, man I can just be me. 01:07:01 Yeah, just be me, and that's what I want for men. Yeah, and that's why Christian Men's Network, cmncom if you want to get materials and tools for resources for discipling men, cmncom, and it's in the show notes, we'll put Sathiya stuff in there also. But, man, I just, I am so grateful for you doing what you do. Oh, thanks for you and shaloma to go through the like hey, we're going to go full-time, leave your job. Yeah, go full-time and we're gonna. What do you guys do? Well, we help guys get off porn like really that's a thing. 01:07:36 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah it's a big thing. 01:07:39 - Speaker 1 Thank god for you, man I want to. 01:07:41 Usually what I do is I'll have uh guests pray over the guy that's listening, but I want to do something right now. I want to pray over you and your wife. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, because, uh, you're out there where there's going to be attacks from oblique angles and it is what you know if you talk about terrorism and things like that, that's a warfare that comes. Things come from oblique angles, you don't know where it's coming from and I just want to pray protection over you and Shlomo and your children and your ministry and your children and your ministry, because men like me and the guys listening right now need you to be really on the front lines, man. 01:08:25 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 01:08:26 - Speaker 1 Just doing the stuff. Yeah, and I want to pray over the men listening right now also. Yeah, because right now, as a man listens if he's listened this far, you're feeling kind of strong, like hey, I could do this. And when you're strong is when you make a decision that helps you through the place. When you're weak, yeah Right, yeah, that's right. So right now, brother, make that choice. When you get done with this, make that choice. Go on deep clean, find that person, do those things that Sathiya was talking about. But I want to pray over you and Shlomo right now, father. I pray over. Right now I pray over Shlomo and Sathiya, pray over their family, pray over their loved ones, Pray over their extended family. Father, I pray protection. I pray the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit. I pray, father, the ability to see even more than he's seen now. I pray, father, what we talked about knowledge. But, father, even more, I pray revelation. I pray revelation that comes to him and Shaloma in their studies of these things that breaks new ground, that even Harvard Medical says, wow, where'd that come from? Because it's from the anointing and the power and the heart of God to set men free for the reconciliation of the earth and for the newness of life to happen. Father, I thank you for every man listening right now. I thank you, father, you're helping him right now. 01:09:48 Make that choice, that decision to do something, to move forward, to get up off the ground. I'm not a victim. I'm going to be a victor. I'm going to make the choice right now. I'm going to move forward. I may not be able to move forward, but I'm going to find somebody who helps me to move forward. Get up off the ground and do it now. Lord, I pray over this ministry. I pray over Deep Clean. I pray over the people that are coming to them, over the people that are coming to him. Lord, I pray hundreds of thousands and millions of men get set free of this scourge, where the enemy is trying to steal their identity, steal their dream, steal their future and destroy the image of Almighty God. So, lord, I thank you for this time together in Jesus' name. Amen, amen, thanks, bro. Thanks for taking the time to be here in the studios. 01:10:38 - Speaker 3 So much fun being in person man, so very cool. Thanks for having me. God bless, thanks, bro. Thanks for taking the time to be here in the studios so much fun being in person, man so very cool. 01:10:43 - Speaker 4 This is great. Thanks for having me. God bless you, man. Brave Men is a production of Christian Men's Network, a global movement of men committed to passionately following Jesus on the ground in over 100 nations worldwide. You can receive the Brave Men motivational email, find books and resources for discipleship and parenting at cmnmen. That's cmnmen. Your host has been Paul Louis Cole, president of Christian Men's Network, and if you haven't yet, please make sure you subscribe to the Brave Men podcast wherever you find podcasts or download it. Thanks for hanging with us today. We'll see you next time on BraveNet.