BraveMen S4E157: Chris Harper-Real / Better

It's Brave Man with Paul Lewis Colm. Wisdom and Courage for the Journey. Sitting with Chris Harper, who is, are you the president, the director, the executive something with Better Man? Yeah, Chief Storyteller. Chief Storyteller, I like that. That's what I call myself. So, so what is that? A CST, Chief Story, CST, I've never... Yeah, I'm digging in, man. Chris Harper, here on Brave Man, and fired up to have you here and have a conversation about Jesus. And the stuff you guys are doing with Better Man. Come on. And because everybody wants to be a Better Man. That's it. Right. And it was a great song by Pearl Jam. It was a great Pearl Jam. That's right. Okay. We're going to do that. See, you do Pearl Jam. I got to go back to like, I don't know, you know, cream or something. Right. It's a different era thing. You have a cream poster. Yeah. I do have a cream. I do. Yeah. And no Snoop Dogg posters are any of those. Oh, okay. Anyway, so Chris Harper, great to have you here on Brave Man. C-M-N. Dot Men is our website. C-M-N. Don't go to C-N-N. No. Go to C-M-N. Dot Man. Krishman is an artwork dot man. For the tools you need to disciple men. And speaking of tools is a disciple man. You guys are crushing it with Better Man. It's amazing what you're doing. Yeah, it's been really cool. Dude, listen, I'm listening to this on my headset. Uh-huh. Like, you have a podcast voice. I have like a hangout voice. My voice is the guy you hear next to you at Starbucks. That's right. Yeah, it's talking to a lot. That's me. Yours is like, you got this radio thing going on. Yeah, that's very cool. Yeah, I just did Moody Radio in Chicago. Did you really? So I did the six o'clock show. And they called the show ended. And they called four minutes later. And they're like, hey, the phones are ringing off the hood. Could you jump back on the seven A-M show? Get back out. And so I finished the seven A-M show. And the producer said, called me and said, have you ever done radio? And I said, no. I mean, I have done radio shows when not done radio. Yeah. Like, you really have a radio voice. Yeah. What he meant was you had to put you on video. Yeah. That's exactly what he meant. Yeah. Yeah. But we will put you on radio. That's funny, man. Isn't that funny? The Matrix we have, hey, phones are ringing. Not like, hey, you had great content. Right. Like, hey, man, the thing you shared about John and all those revelations about Joshua. Yeah, that was great stuff. No. Hey, phones are ringing. Yeah, get back on them. Get back on. Say something. Say something. Right? Isn't that... Oh, man. I don't know. I'm sure the content was fantastic, but... Yeah. Which is probably why the phones are ringing. Yeah. We'll chuck it up to that. But at the same time, we have this Matrix about how many people in the seats? Always. Right? How many people were there? Yeah. Like, hey, hey, you've got a ministry called Better Man. Really? Yeah. Well, how many people read your books? Yeah. Like, isn't that... What did you get that? All the time. Really. You have to... You have to lead with that. Hmm. It was interesting. I was in a meeting with ministry leaders not too long ago, and they were going around the table. I was feeling real insecure. So I made up a number. I love it. And I... I mean, just... As we do, it's way over-exaggerated. And I left the meeting. This was so good. I left the meeting, got in my truck. Hmm. And the Holy Spirit was only so heavy that I had just lied. Yeah. So I walked back into the meeting, to the guy that was hosting the meeting, and I said, hey, I said, man, I need to confess to you. I lied. I made up that number. And he's like, what are you talking about? I said, you know that number about people reaching. I said, I said, I made that up. And he goes, I have no idea what you're talking about. He said, no one was really listening to you. Oh, dude. Now, there's a word right there for you and me in the Instagram culture in which we live. Come on. We do so many things based on what other people think. Yes, right. Rather than what the Word of God says to us, what our maturity is trying to tell us, what this little voice, you know, I don't know which shoulder your right voice sits on for you. But, you know, that little voice that says, hey, hey, you should do that different. This should be different. You should be doing that, whatever. And we don't listen to that, man. And we're all into what other people think. Only to find out. They didn't even notice you were there. 100%. I was just with Robert Lewis, men's fraternity, how do I raise a modern day now? Well, that's where better man came out of. Yeah. If we would track that back in a moment, we'll talk about it. Absolutely. But I was just with him, I don't know, two weeks ago. And he was sitting across from me and he said, Chris, you know, he's 70 plus years old now. He's been in the ministry game for 50 years. Wow. He said, do you know what I've learned after 50 years of ministry? And I'm like sitting on the edge of my seat like I cannot wait for this. He said, Chris, I've learned how small I really am. Wow. And I was just like, oh, so good. Yeah. We get real big in our world. And what we do, what we have a tendency to do is we'll have a tendency to shrink the pond so we can be the biggest fish. 100%. So our world becomes smaller. That's right. And if you're willing, it's the old Ronald Reagan, I'm sure he got it somewhere else. If you don't care about who gets the credit, it's amazing how much he can get done. Man, we have, so when you come into the better man offices, we have this. Where are you guys based? We're in Dallas. You're based in Dallas. Old Parkland. Yeah, super, super swank. It's a, it's a gift from one of our board members, but super swank digs. But you walk in and we have this office mantra. And our office mantra is own the losses and give away the wins. So everybody on the team, like when something goes wrong, we don't, we don't pass the buck. It's like, hey, I own that. And we're going to, we're going to, we're going to fix it. We're going to do it better. And then when we win, man, we just give it away. Wow. We give it away to each other, give it away to others. Because the reality is, like, I didn't write better man. I'm standing on the so shoulders of giants. Like I realized that. Yeah. And the reality is there's nothing new under the sun. Right? I had an old seminary professor that said, if you're reading the Bible and you've got a new idea, he says it's probably here. Yeah, that's right. That's funny, man. If somebody's much smarter than me, he hasn't thought about it in the last 2000 years though. He said, I probably wouldn't share it with anybody. Yeah. Because it probably has already been said and those guys got, you know, burned. A hundred percent. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, well, they burned the good guys too. Yeah. John Huscott burned. Yeah. You know, a few other good guys. Yeah. So what's your background? You know, you come into better man as the CST. Yeah. Did I get that right? Yeah. Chief Storyteller. Okay. Not the BS, man. Okay. That's really, maybe a little bit of that. The BS, man, the CST. A little bit of that. But you come into that just recently, actually. Out of a pastoral background. And then you did a lot of that. What do we call that there? Schooling? Yeah. No doubt. Right? Yeah. So I, I took people all the time. I'm a, I'm a recovering mega church pastor. Yeah. So my, my first church I ever pastored at was, was a large church. And it was, it was wheels off, man. Like, dude, you must have been in your late 20s. Yeah. I was 27th. Get out of here. And, and I had just become a believer, which was the problem. Yeah. So I don't know who's idea that was. Well, that's why Paul wrote most of his letters. He was writing them to new believers going, hey, guys, listen, when you're doing communion, don't get drunk. Like, he was writing it to me. Yeah. And it was, you know, after, after two years of that, I realized, man, I, I don't really know what I believe. Like, I don't know how to lead a church. I don't, I'm not a really good shepherd. So, um, I left there. So you had a pulpit gift. That's what happened. I did. Well, because you're a communicator. You just got a natural gift of communicating. Yeah. Yeah. So, and, and even back then, it was worse. I was just a great entertainer. Mm. And, wow. Yeah. I was, I, I could draw a crowd. Wow. And, you know, sometimes I think the church looks at that and like, oh man, that's a great spiritual gift. Yeah. And I'm not so sure that's it, but. That's, uh, that's, uh, from a song that Sting wrote, uh, they seemed like game show host to me. Come on. It was the line and it was about the leaders of, uh, of nations. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. If you don't like what's behind door number one, we got door number two over here. Wow. So, did that, did that for two years and then, um, I said, man, I don't think this is for me. So I got hooked up with Dave and John Ferguson and the new thing that worked. Mm. Exponential guys. Mm-hmm. And so I did church planning for them. Wow. And that was cool. I really liked that we, we planted churches on college campuses. Wow. And, uh, we ended up doing the, the, the future leaders. That's it, man. We ended up brilliant. I got to be a part of like 28 of those. Wow. And county in the southeast region of the country. And then, and then password one in Louisville, Kentucky on the University of Louisville's campus. That was good. Uh, but then I started having kids, lots of them. And, um, you know, and say you, you figured out how that happened. Yeah. Yeah. I was all with your wife though, right? That's right. So, I'll never forget when we had our first child. I was in my office and my wife called me that day. And she said, have got something to tell you. And I said, I said, what? She said, I'm pregnant. And I said, how did that happen? And she's like, do you really need to know that? Like, and, um, so, so. That's awesome. Yeah. And how many children do you have? Four. Four kids. All under the age of 11. Come on, man. I was off at my house like it's chaos. Yeah. You walk in. You're going to catch a Lego to the face like it's, it's nuts. But I love it. It's the best thing in my life. How do you, how do you, how do you, what's your prep before you walk in the front door? Because you, you, you office away at the house or you travel. What's your prep before you walk in the door? It's take a deep breath. Take the, is that it? And, and Lord, you know, help me, help me focus. Because when I, well, and, and it's, it's a gift every time. There's nothing better than walking through the door and your two-year-old screaming. Come on, man. There's nothing better than that. Yeah. That's, that is the thing. And, and my payoff. That's the payoff. That's it. And my kids are still young enough that when I get home, it's like a celebration. Yeah. Like they still run and hug me. Like they're not at that age yet where they don't do that. Yeah. Which I'm, like I'm not looking forward to that. Yeah. But even my oldest, my 11 year old daughter, like she'll come bounding down the stairs waiting to hug my neck. And I'm just like, oh, I know there's a day that this might change right now. It's the greatest thing. She'll text you from her room. That's right. I heard you were home. I heard you were home, dad. Welcome. And then later on, just be yo. Yeah. Yeah. No. I, I, I, I do tell men all the time, harp, that, that, um, make sure that when you walk in the door, you're present because you belong to your kids. And it, it's not always for a long time. That's right. Like they'll come in now. They'll, you know, grab you. They'll show you something. And then boom, they're off to something else. That's your minutes later, right? That's right. But that first moment, if you push them off, that's all they know. Yeah. Wow. That's all they know. So what I've told men for years is, hey, go stop and have a drink with a friend. Go stop and have a cup of coffee. Uh, just sit in your car. If you, if you work away from the house, sit in your car and just read a book for 15 minutes, decompress. So you don't walk in and treat them like your employees. Wow. Or, or push them off. You know, the old thing about mama says, hey, don't bother your dad, huh? You know, we had a bad day and all that kind of stuff. Hey, they don't know what that is. No. Right? So you need to be present for the first at least 20 minutes. That's right. And man, there was nothing better for me than we had upstairs downstairs and upstairs was a little game room. And so my two sons, you met one of them and Bryce and they would come running down the stairs. And there was a landing that was just about shoulder height to me. And that's where they would jump from. I love that. Yes. Yeah. It was like it was on, man. Come on. And you know, it's, it's that thing that Dr. Farrell talks about in this book, the crisis of boy crisis, Warren Farrell. He says, the most important thing that a father can do for his son is wrestle. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, something. Yeah. It teaches them, teaches them self-control. Self-control? Boundaries. No, you don't hit dad there. That's right. Yeah, you don't hit your sister. You don't hit your sister. That's it, man. It's all these bad. And it's intimacy. That's right. It's intimacy. It's strength. Hey, man, you're getting, because you tell your kid, dude, you couldn't pin me before, but man, look at you now. I mean, today, you know, I just, I've been gone the last three days. I've been traveling and I got home last night and I woke up this morning to my two-year-old in bed with my wife and I. And immediately he pounced on me like a little lion. And it was all in man. He kept telling me he was Donkey Kong and I was Bowser until he comes down. Just seeing out of Mario. And we were, and we went at it for 15 minutes this morning and it was just that absolute best. It's the absolute best. And something I've really been just convicted about lately is not being on my device and my phone when I'm at home. I caught myself a few weeks ago. Interesting. I was, I was checking something, reading the text. Probably I was checking the score more than like an only SPM, but my son was telling me a story. And I was half paying attention to him and half reading the text. Oh, okay. And then all of a sudden he stopped. He's engaging. He stops telling me the story and then he just walks off. And it, and I was like, and it hit me, it hit me. Bro, you just told your son like he's not the most important thing in the room right now. So I had to put down the phone. I had to go get him. And I said, hey, listen, Malachau. Like you're, you're, you're way more important than anybody on this phone. And I just want to apologize to you. Wow. And I said it down and I said, man, tell me that superhero story. That's so good. Yeah. Yeah. But it's what you said. It's just being present. You know, you know, that kind of thing and what you're sharing and what we'll talk about in a minute. And you should like head up like a ministry to men. It'd be fantastic. No doubt. You know, talking to Chris Harper, better man is the ministry. Start out, men's fraternity. Robert Lewis wrote a book called The Modern Day Night. Pastored a church in Little Rock, Arkansas, right? Yeah. First, first multi-campus kind of big satellite church in the country back back in the day. Back in the day. Yeah. And now for you back in the day is not as far back as me back in the day. We're a little different eras. That's true. And so what I say back in the day, I'm like, yeah, I need to go like, yeah, I was born two years after that. Right. So, you know, anyway. But so you come out of this mega church thing and then you're doing this encounter the, excuse me, exponential. Yeah. And planting churches. Now you're in Louisville. Yeah. Right. I mean, I got to get chased out there for cheating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyway, aside from that. And you're a sports guy too, which is why I'm hanging out with you because you know stuff. Like you met my son, Bryce, he knows stuff. Like when you guys get together, he knows he's like the expert. Now, here's the problem. His brother, they're one year apart, one year and two days. His brother's an expert also. Okay. Yeah. But they are experts from different, like different directions. Yeah, they are. Like, yeah. Oh, dude. We'll be sitting there at a family meal or something or like, finally, okay, stop. Okay, stop. Pay attention to the kids. Pay attention to that. That's amazing. No, there's no way that that happened. He shouldn't have done that. That's right. Yeah, well, why do you draft that guy? Well, he shouldn't have drafted him in the first place. What do you mean he shouldn't have drafted him? Who else was on the board? That's right. You know, so anywhere. So you come out at, so you're now you're in Louisville, pastoring. Yep. Louisville, and then I go to Oklahoma City. Pastoring, Oklahoma City? Yeah, pastoring. At one of the universities or was it a standalone church? Yeah, standalone church. Okay. Yeah. And then after that, I get into Christian education. Really? So I left, I had like this, you know, existential moment where, man, I'm just, I'm just not a shepherd. Like I'm not a pastor. All right. I'm a communicator. Hmm. I'm not a shepherd. And it's so interesting, you know, I won't, I won't go super deep into this, but. No, it's okay. It's a podcast. There we go. You can go deep. There we go. So my buddy's listening right now and he's wanting to know that's it, man. So I learned in the hard way that there's a difference between natural gifts and spiritual gifts. What is that? So my freshman year of college, I have public speaking, professor, Dr. Ruth Wagner, I'll never forget her. She asked me to stay after class. Where were you at college? Bellarmony University. It's a private Catholic college. Okay. So she asked me to stay after class and she says, Hey, Hey, Chris, you're a really gifted communicator. Like I'm pretty sure you're making up half of what you say. She said it's, it's, it's enthralling like you can hold a crowd. She said, have you ever thought about a career in law? You know, I think you would be extra, excellent attorney. And I said, no, they make up half of what they, that's exactly right. And I said, I said, never. And she said, she said our university, we're national mock trial champions. We beat Harvard last year. Good. And I said, she said, you know what that is. And I said, no, ma'am. And she said, my husband, who's a super prominent attorney, she said, he's the coach. So they take me to dinner, long story short, buy me my first suit, put me on the team. And two weeks later, I'm on a plane to play Notre Dame and Yale up in South Bend, India. Right. And so I get, I get immersed into this kind of law, legal, vocabulary, English philosophy. I got a couple lawyers in our family, so I understand what exactly what you're talking about. It's a debate type of thing that has a trial. That's it. That's it. And, but even outside of that, like, so I start learning, you know, the, the use of the human language. Right. I start learning the importance of a big vocabulary. I start learning how to, how to dialogue and how to defend and how to win arguments. So it's a match. 100%. 100%. So, so fast forward, you know, seven years, I finished grad school, you know, I'm on my way to law school. I did grad school at University of Louisville. And, you know, I get saved and what's crazy is you couldn't debate, you couldn't debate God out of that. I couldn't. No, true, true story. True story. I just happened. I just finished doing research overseas for the University of Louisville. I come back from Eastern Europe and I look at a buddy from grad school and I said, hey, man, where does hope come from? Because I was feeling hopelessness. Wow. And the same hopelessness I was feeling was the same that I saw in the faces of all those people in Eastern Europe. Because everything you'd seen. Yeah. And he's like, hey, you should come to church with me on Wednesday night. And I'm like, bro, I'm just not really into that. He said, there's free Chick-fil-A in college girls. I said, I'm, I mean, that's a smart man right there. I said, I mean, that's a smart man. So I go, it's true story, dude, I go for the, for the chicken sandwich and the girls. And a couple of months into that, I learned that my hopelessness is a result of me being separated from my creator, that I don't, I don't just reject God. I want to be God and that there was a man named Jesus Christ that paid the penalty for my sin. And if I put my trust in him, like he gives me hope upon hope. And Jesus became my Lord and Savior. So after that, I walk away from that, you know, pursuing that career in law, you know, and, but, but, but here's where it gets interesting. The church then looks at me, I think it's already interesting. Well, yeah, but it gets really interesting. Here's where it really, yeah. So the church then looks at me and the same gifting that Dr. Wagner said was natural. They tell me it's a spiritual gift and I think they were wrong. Yeah. Like it's both of God, but, and, and, and, and here's why I think it's wrong because, and this is complete transparency for the first probably seven years of my ministry, pastoring large churches. I never once leaned on the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And, and, and entire seasons, years of my life, I wasn't reading the Word of God. No. You're just good at what you did. I wasn't praying. I was just good at what I was doing. And, and, and here's what happens when you only lean on your natural gifts and not on the Spirit. Yeah. You rob the cross of its power. Wow. Because Paul said in my weakness, you're a mage, you know, you're known like, like the power is manifested. And, and so I'm just leaning on my natural ability. Yeah. And, and, and God is using it, which is crazy. Like people are actually getting saved. He said the very rocks could cry out. Paul. I, I think, you know, bail him had a donkey. That's right. And that would be spoke. That would be. And, and I think God can use anything. I, I think God's, I remember the movie, Juneau, that, that basically a young girl is a seconder movie and yet in the middle of it, it was the girl having a problem with whether or not she was going to have an abortion, she had a boyfriend. And a girl in line in front of the thing, who was a classmate, looked at her and said, do you know your baby has fingernails? Like this girl's like three months pregnant, you know, she's going to have an abortion. She says your baby has fingernails. Wow. She's what? That little word right there changed her direction. She goes in and the next scenes you see, and this written, this movie, Juneau was written by a stripper. Yeah. That was basically, you know, dealing with her own life. Wow. And, and so this girl decides not to have an abortion, but I remember watching that second movie and it's a, it's a, it's a young love kind of angst movie. But that scene, I know God used that to speak to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young ladies. Wow. Right? Yeah. That natural thing, the things in nature, I mean, right? Paul said, and the writers have said, you know, the very trees cry out. That's right. You know, the glory of God. Yeah. And Paul at one point even says there, there are some people out there using the gospel for their own gang, for their own gain. He said, let them as long as the gospel goes that way. As long as I know. It's unreal. Right. So now it's okay. So that's a natural gift. Timothy, too, too, is one of the predicating scriptures my dad founded Christmas Network with, which has commit these words to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. And the key to that, four generations in that scripture, the key to that is faithfulness. That's right. Commit these words to faithful men who will be able. So the ability coming from the Holy Spirit using natural gifts, right? There's a natural bent. For instance, when Peter and John 21, Peter's, you know, he's messed up. He's got this regret on him. He denied Christ. He's like, man, I don't know. Jesus has appeared twice. I don't know. And everybody's like, what are you going to do? I don't know. I'm going to go fishing. So all the other guys go and we'll go fishing, too. That's right. So Peter had on him a natural leadership gift, right? Yeah. So there's this natural gift, but then tell me where the spiritual gift. Yeah. So there's sex. The spiritual gift intersects in that when, oh, excuse me, the only thing he says, faithful men. So God says, don't he's not saying look for men of great ability, great charismatic appeal. Look for men who will be faithful. Yeah. Okay. So let's stay on Peter, right? So Peter always had a boldness about him. He's the first one to run into the tomb. He's the first one to speak up. So he walked on water. He walked on water. I don't care if he sank. Yeah, that's it. He did for a while. That's right. Yeah. So it's no coincidence then when it's time to step up in the middle of town and preach in front of the Pharisees in Sanhedrin, it was him that did it. Well, he had a prophetic word from Jesus that he was going to grow old. That's right. That's right. But so like the boldness was natural. The boldness was natural. But then the Holy Spirit intersects and says, hey, like I'm going to turn all these natural giftings and ability. I'm going to turn these and point people to King Jesus. Like I'm going to use these to take ground for King Jesus and not build necessarily Chris Arpers platform. Right. So it broke me to the point where I really felt like I wasted seven years of ministry. Just man, I robbed Jesus of so much glory because I was so busy proving to people how smart I was, how clever I was, how witty I was, how winsome I was, and all these. So what I did ultimately is take the gifts and I elevated them above the giver of the gifts. Wow. And the Holy Spirit does the inverse, right? He uses your gifts to put the giver of the gifts on a bigger, bigger, the Hagen platform. So I walked away for seven years. I didn't, I didn't pastor. I quit the pastor and then I just dove into just helping churches and then you became an educator. I did, yep. And principal principal or executive director of a school or what they call it. Yeah. They present and had a school of things of that nature. Yeah. So I started working for a couple of different Christian prep schools and things of that nature. I started raising money. I got into the generosity game where I would help different churches and ministries and schools raise money. So I did that for seven or eight years until about two years ago. And that's when I looked at my wife and I said, hey, I think the Lord, the spirit has truly humbled me, has, has, has broke me like, like I think I could shepherd people now. It's not about me. It's about him. Wow. And I told her I said, I said, I think I'm ready to go back into full time, vocational pulpit ministry and she and the greatest thing was she confirmed it. Wow. She's like, I see it in you now. And so that's what I thought I was going to do. So I put my name out there, you know, and I get a call from this very prominent in the media church in Seattle. And they're like, hey, we think you're the next guy here. And so I meet with him and I had grown up in that kind of Mark Driscoll air and I had idolized what was happening in Seattle on Marseille and man, I thought this is it. Like the Lord has made me for this. So meet with elders and I tell my wife, I think, I think we're going to move to Seattle. I think I'm going to pastor Marseille. We call docks of church now, but my wife meets with the elders. We do a Zoom. We go down in Nashville for like a two day retreat. I'm sorry, Austin to pray about this. We do a Zoom with the elders and we come back from Austin and my wife looks me and says, I'm not moving to Seattle. She said, she said, you can go, but they're not going to like you being there without me. And you're not going to like it, and you're not going to have any more kids. She's like, she's like, I love our church. Here, I love our kids school. She said, I think Texas is home and she said, I think the Lord's telling us to stay. And I was devastated. Like I had to seek counseling. Like I was pissed. I didn't like she was holding me back, like I cannot believe you're not on the level with this. And so, so man, I had to work through that. It took me, it took me months, a year to work through that. But it's amazing to see what the Lord was doing because here's what was cool. The search firm that was hiring for the Mars Hill job calls me and says, hey man, we really like you. The church like you, can we keep your name on a list if anything comes open in Texas? If there's any pastorial jobs in Texas, and we think they had one church in particular in mind. And I said, absolutely, I said, something comes open in Texas, let's do it. So I'm setting on my couch a few months later and I get a text from this guy and the text just says, hey, have you heard of Better Man? And I said, no. The next text said, do you know who Robert Lewis is? And I texted back, I said, that's the cat that wrote how to raise a modern day and they said, he wants to meet with you in a couple of days. Next thing I know, man, I'm meeting with the great Robert Lewis who must think and he rose. Yeah. Great man. And they introduced me to this thing called Better Man and a month and a half later I took the job. It's fantastic, man. It's awesome. And you're already here. That's what's crazy. I was here, man. I live in, you know, right near Fort Worth, I mean, are you living where you were living before 100%? Yeah. It's just 25%. But kids didn't actually have to change schools. We didn't change anything. We didn't change church. We didn't change schools. We didn't change home groups. We didn't change fruits. You look a little more cleaned up though. I'm less disappointed today. And that was just amazing journey. And what I love about Better Man is, you know, I'm not leading a church, but I get to equip church across the country, equipping churches. You're doing the deal. It's awesome, dude. Yeah. And you're using your communication gift and you and I have hung out with some other friends who are a ministry to men. And it really has been a remarkable time to hear you share. And you are actually, you just finished your doctorate, bro. Yeah. Right? Yeah. This past May. Yeah. Cause I remember talking to you last year and you're writing a paper and doing the dissertation thing. Man, it was. Yeah. So I ended up, I went to DTS, love DTS, Dallas C. Lawrence, and I got invited into the doctoral program there, but I'm not a dispensationalist. And they were like, it was cool for you to get a master's degree here and not be a dispensationalist. But you kind of got to, you kind of got to drink the whole Kool-Aid if you want to do that. So, and I'm, I'm, I'm old school Baptist. So, so I'm kind of Baptist at heart. So I said, you know what? I think I'm going to go to a Baptist seminary now. So I went to Southwestern, did my, did my doctorate there and it was a, it was a blast. That's fantastic. Yeah. We, with Christmas network, we're working as you guys do with better man. It's, it's interesting. I mean, cause you were just in El Salvador with as soon as the God, right? Yeah. You're doing a big thing there. You're doing some other countries. I know a brick climber with, it's a friend, mutual friend with man in a mirror. They were just, it was a Kool-Aid poor. Yup. They were just there. They did a big thing with a number of other groups. Yes, that's great. When I go to Vietnam in a couple of weeks where we're working with CMA, AG, a couple local Vietnamese denominations and groups, some of them are denominations. They, they don't know what they are. They're just movements. That's right. brother up in Hanoi, he's got about 70 men that he's trained in the pastoring. And they're all from former drug dealers. It's awesome. It's kind of like they don't care. They've already looked down the barrel of a gun. This is bold, man. They're just out there getting guys to cyplled. It's a great era. You know, Harp, we hear a lot about man, chaos, world's going to hell, all this stuff happening. Every time we turn around or it's crisis, the 24, 7 news cycle, absolutely thrives on negativity, right? What do you see coming up in the next few years? Where's your hope? You know, you talked about hopelessness. Where are you living now, man? We're ridiculous, Paul. Like we act like Christianity is hereditary. The church has withstood everything and it will withstand everything. Jesus Christ said, you know, the gates of Hades will not prevail against this, on this rock, on this truth. I'm going to build my church. The reality is the next Billy Graham is drunk in a Fred house right now. That's the reality. That's true. The next, that's so good. The next mother Teresa, the next mother Teresa is at an abortion clinic, right? Like we, we forget that man, he is always calling people out and calling people up and transformation. And he will always have a remnant, man. So there's so many in the church today, like we set around like the O Testament prophets and woe is me. We're the only ones. And God's like, no, bro, like you can't even see what I've got out there. Like he opens our eyes for a second and like the heels are just full of this. Not only that, he likes to go, he likes to go, he's under that tree, you know? Yeah. Like he's, like he's just called, he's just prayed. It didn't rain. Then he prays and fire comes from heaven. That's right. Right. Then he kills like 400 prophets of Bale. And then this woman goes, yeah, we're going to kill you. And he goes, oh my God, I'm out of here. He's sitting under a tree and he goes, you might as well kill me. It's all over. That's right. Because I'm the only guy left. That's it. It's an amazing story about really heavy duty guy. And that happens to all of us though. That's why we got to hang out with our brothers. That's why we got to be in brotherhood. That's why better man really pushes, hey, small group, get together, find your tribe. Be in a local church. I mean, that's one of the things that you and I resonate on is we're committed with Christmas and I work in better man and the other friends, whether it's Kenny Locker, brother, whoever, we're committed to the local church. Yeah, the local church is the vehicle. God is ordained to win the world. I mean, it's his bride. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's his bride. Like he's always going to protect her. Yeah, come on. He's always going to provide for. He's always going to set her on a pedestal. So, so this whole doom and gloom, the church is no longer effective. Yeah, we're not in the conversation. Oh, wow. All that stuff. Yeah, we are the conversation. So, the thing is, is that, you know, when we talk about all of these issues and stuff and whatever going on, you're right, Jesus Christ will come back for a church that's been victorious. Absolutely. So, the greatest days of victory are ahead of us. Absolutely. You know, and the light shines brightest in the darkness. Come on, man. Bring on the darkness. Hey, the darker gets the more chance for me to shine for the King, bro, I will like this thing on fire. Yeah, come on. That's it. Yeah, it's Billy Joel. Yeah, we didn't start the fire, but it's always been burning since the world's been turning. Yeah, come on. Oh, you, you know, now I see you got a little classic. I'm an old soul, bro. I do love 90s hip hop, but give me a little Billy Joe. Give me a little piano, man. Come on. Yeah, you know, it's true. And so, uh, better man. Yeah. You guys do small groups. You have small group materials. What's the website? We do betterman.com. And everybody wants to be a better man. Everybody wants a great man. It's so good. Matt Locking those guys do that. Who did Robert? Robert's wife. That's the Robert's wife came out of it. You know what it was and what it, what it's on our tax filing, what it's still called today is the manhood project. It's terrible name. Manhood project. And then and then Robert's wife was like, uh-huh. Yeah. I don't like that. And so they changed it to best. So we did a D.A. Because you can't define it. In some ways, that's why we call our conference some of them biblical masculinity. Right. Because manhood is kind of like, what are you? I'm a Christian. You know, uh, it's, it's how the listener defines it is the issue rather than you being able to define it. Yeah, we talk about, we, we talk about that a lot. So, so we say, so for example, um, Kevin Hart and the rock, um, they are different expressions of manhood, but they both start in the same movie. Yeah. Right. So, so like, like, there can be different expressions of manhood, but there are some universal principles. Yeah. Like, like that God. And, and we say this is a better man. We're not, we're not redefining what manhood masculinity is. We're simply reclaiming it. Like, God's already defined it. Yeah. And he's given us the ultimate example in King Jesus. Really, we just need to look to him. Yeah. Right. So, so better man is built on, on these four principles of manhood. We call him the four W's. A real man courageously follows God's word. A real man loves, protects, serves God's woman. A real man excels at the work God has given him. And a real man betters God's world through his church, community, his children. Okay. Word. So the four W's are all inside sentences. Yeah. But they still had to be W's because you're Baptist. Got to illiterate, bro. There's nothing like a good allureation in the world, dude. But they're all inside these sentences. Okay. Yeah. And it's all genesis one, two, and three, right? No. Of course, it's a Bible. We understand that. The thing is, you know, coming back to better man and immense groups and why we do them and so forth is Elijah under the tree. And God said, I got 7,000 other guys. Just look. And my question, harp is always, why didn't he know one of those guys? Yeah, because why wasn't one of those guys at the tree with him? So I'm saying, in other words, he was so intent and focused on ministry and doing what he was doing that he essentially went on beyond hanging out with some guys. And he lost that true center. Yeah. And I think it's a great story of why we need brother. Yeah. He shouldn't even have been at the tree. Dude, exactly. He was running. No, he should have been in some guy's house. Yeah. And yeah. That's what Jesus did. He hung out at Lazarus's house. That's it. You can't, you can't outstrategize four or five guys sitting around. Come on, man. I just heard Jonathan McLeod say that. You can't, you can't outstrategize three or four times. Oh, you gave him credit. I do. I was writing it down. Now I got to put his name on it. Yeah. Okay. Cool. You can't outstrategize that. And he shouldn't have been at the tree. You know, the surgeon general, this is recent. So the surgeon general adjusting out to the number one killer. I mean, not heart disease, not cancer. It's isolation. Yeah. Loneliness. That's it. The average man, the stat I read recently was the average man has 1.7 friends. Okay. And everybody knows the point seven guy because he's the one doesn't show up when you move. Everybody knows that guy. No, you got to have somebody you can call me and you got to have somebody you can say, dude, this thing's jacked up or out of friend text me yesterday. He said, hey, pray for this meeting. He used me with some investors in a business thing. He says pray for this today. I said, dude, it's a spiritual battle. Boom, send him a little scripture. And he just texted back, hey, thanks. Boom, he's on. And you know, I got to call him, you know, it's a two day deal. I got to come find out from the end of today. You know, how that went. And I'm sure that was part of the whole process of him praying over it. He and his, he's got some business partners that are followers of Christ. Yeah. They were going up again. Something pretty stout. And it's a pretty big deal. And uh, but it's you got to have that guy. You got that test guy. And you got to have friends or brothers you can talk to. That's right. And men are so afraid. I shouldn't say afraid. So technology, oh, we don't like vulnerability. Right. Yeah. We always protect ourselves. We'll, we'll technology. It's like the guys in soccer. That's right. It's guys in soccer. Where do you put your hands? Yeah. Yeah. Always over your nuts. That's so true. Right. It's like it's so true. So we just, that's what we do. That's it. And what has happened is technology has given us the illusion of friendship without the hard work of friendship. Oh, dude, no kidding. So, like, like friendship is hard work. Right. It's, it's, it's hard work to be a friend and it's work to have friends. Right. It's a, it's an uphill battle. But most of us are bringing it down in the effort. And, and, man, we got to stop that. Like we got to put ourselves out there. We've got to open up. We've got to, um, be there for one another. And, and like genuinely be there. Not, not liking things or reposting things or retweeting things. That doesn't make your heart. You know, like a click heart. Yeah. Look who hearted my thing. It's got this guy gave me a thumbs up. Like, what does that even mean? So, so yeah, dude, it's, it's fellowship. I am learning. Like fellowship is everything. Well, here's, here's my deal is, is that in fact, it's what we did in art. We did a video taping just before you got here to do this. And that was talking about fellowship, how key it is. But the focus always has to come back to discipleship. That's right. So if you do, if you do fellowship without the focus of discipleship growing or becoming mature, then you're just hanging out. That's good. And I think fellowship is, is what guys, well, see, we've got two sides of it. One, we had a lot of fellowship going on because everybody reacted to the fact that we were being pounded on. That's right. By the fathers of the fifties. The guys that came out of fifties, man, they would do a men's meeting and it would go from eight in the morning till, you know, like nine o'clock at night with two 15 minute breaks. You know, here's a twinkie and some chips and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, right. So it was all that whole focus on, you know, just information. That's right. And the reaction to that is just a focus on totally on fellowship and in some place in the middle harp, which is we're, we're fellowshiping. We're hanging out. But then there's a word from the Holy Spirit. There's a boom. There's a, there's a guy that goes, dude, yeah, just so jacked up over my kid. He's going in for a doctor thing tomorrow and we're not sure what's going on with his lungs. You know, what do you do? Fellowship, fellowship, if you just fellowship, it just goes, yeah, bummer, man. That's what we're going to do by one another round, you know, but, but friendship, okay, fellowship, and the focus of discipleship, brotherhood says, dude, you know what we're going to do? We're going to stop right now. We're going to pray over that because that's, and that's what you need to have. You need to have to get some guys you can hang out with. Jesus had Lazarus. Yeah, he did. You got to have some guys that you can, Jesus, in fact, he was, Lazarus was such a good friend that he didn't make him a disciple. Wow. So he didn't have to be on when he was with him. So he could sit down with Lazarus and go, and Lazarus go, dude, how's it going? And Jesus goes, you know what? If James and John's mother shows up one more time, they're both out. Like if she's, like, she's been, she's like, she's talking to me about their position. No, they're out. And then Lazarus goes, yeah, what about the Peter thing? Dude, you just, he got out of the boat. Lazarus goes, he walking water. Yeah. What happened? Well, you know, he sank. I got concerned with distracted. What'd you do? I dragged him back a little bit. It was hilarious. Lazarus is like, that's funny, man. Jesus is like, yeah, you know, you know what I'm saying? He's got to have a guy where he's not on. That's right. You got to have friends. That's good. You know, too many men in ministry pastors in particular. Their friends are all based on their gifting. They're talent. Wow. What they do. That's right. And they only hang out with guys. How many people in your church? Yeah. 800. Okay. Why can't I hang out with you? That's right. Right. That's right. Right. They got this little thing. And then they're just talking about, hey, you know, how's your series going? Oh, that's going out. That is so true. Not really friendship. That's so true. I've got, I've got three or four guys that, in the pastorate, right, they have fallen in the last year. They've done something stupid or anything like that. But what's interesting about what you just said, the first thing out of their mouth after that is, and I've lost all my friends. Oh, yeah. Because you're describing exactly their friends were all based on their work thing. That's it. The based on their gifts. Yeah. Based on their talent. Because like if you work for, let's just say I be and pick it out of the year, you work for IBM and you go get a job with somebody else. Most of those people are not your quote unquote friends anymore. Guys, you went to lunch with for seven years. Now, you're working across at Compack or I don't even know if they're in business anymore. He'll pack or whatever. And, and, and the guy at IBM is like, they're not even your friends anymore. Were they your friends? No. No. Right. And that's where we have to have brothers. Guys that were vulnerable with guys that were, were willing, if you will, to just kind of put, you know, Pat Morley had a great thing he taught years ago about Native Americans. And when they would come into the sweat tent and they would bring a rock and they'd set the rock in the middle and that rock was them. And their vulnerability was I'm putting myself right here. And right now I'm going to share everything. Yeah. And tell you what I'm going on. And the strength that they had is as warriors when they would come in as allies and a tribe together. See women bond face to face. This is Jeff Gorsuch in a book called Brothers. A little book he wrote with navigators 30 years ago. Women bond face to face. But men bond shoulder to shoulder facing the challenge. Let's go. I'm right now down. We got more stuff. We got more stuff. There's more where that came from, man. That's so good. So, hey, I've had Chris Harper on Brave Men today. Fantastic. I have a new on scraping and friends thrilled that you didn't move off somewhere and you and I have connected through other mutual friends. And we're doing this together. Shorter to shoulder, one might say. Come on, man. Better man. What is it? Betterman.com. Betterman.com checks out. There's all kinds of free materials. You can download 100%. Thank God for Robert Lewis and the men have gone before legends. You've got some great men on your board, right? Yeah. Leaders within the Betterman organization. You've got a podcast. What's the podcast called? The Betterman Movement. Yeah, well, there you go. Yeah. The Betterman Movement. That's it. That's our. You all want to be a movement. Yeah. No, it's the better. It's the Betterman podcast. The Instagram is Betterman Movement. Really? Yeah. Like MVMT probably. No, it's the whole where I think I dropped the valves. That's super cool. That is pretty cool. The grammar nerd in me wouldn't let it happen. Poshy. Yeah. You couldn't do that because you're an educator. That's right. Yeah. Everything has to be spelled out. It's good, bro. I can't even call you bro. I got to call you brother. No, Harp. You call me Harp. I know. That's what my brothers call me. Okay. Like anybody else, they wouldn't even know that name. Yeah. Okay. Turn over there. All right. Anyway, Chris Harper Harp on Brave Men podcast. Tell somebody about the podcast and see him in dot men as the website. Tools for discipling men. So it's and thank you to all the partners, friends and brothers who have made the Brave Men podcast possible. Yeah. And if you go to see him in dot men, you can sign up for our Brave Men motivational email. It comes out three times a week. A 90-second read that will help you in your life. Chris Harper, thanks for being on, man. I'm a fan of yours. Come on. And we are allies together. The Christmas Network and Betterman. Bless you, bro. It's an honor, bro. Thanks to you. You just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.