BraveMen S4E146: Jon Tyson - Renewing a Dying Culture

It's said that whoever defines the language controls the conversation and whoever controls the conversation defines the culture. John Tyson is one of those men who's on a mission to cultivate renewal in the culture of the church and the culture in which you and I live. Today, I'm brave men were with a man that I admire. I've read his materials, look at his resources and I'm fired up about what you and I are about to walk into over the next few moments here on brave men. Remember for tools for discipling men, go to cmn.men, christian men's network cmn.men and this is going to be a remarkable time and it's going to stretch me. I know it's going to stretch you today on brave men. It's brave men with Paul Lewis Cole wisdom and courage for the journey. John Tyson, New York based, uh, but you grew up in Abelay. And yes, yeah, Australian American. And and you've got you've got you've you've written a number of books. What brought you to the United States? What is this? Are you a missionary to the US? What is this? Well, you know, when I grew up in Australia, Adelaide, Australia, when I was, I became a Christian when I turned 17 in a Pentecostal youth revival. And it's really hard to explain. I had a vision that God was calling me to America when I was a teenager. And when I was 20, I had an amazing open door. I got a scholarship to study theology in the US. I've lived here for 25 years now. I lived in New York for 17 years. And I do view myself with like a Leslie Nubigan missionary to the West kind of a mentality. I love it. I'm a US citizen. I'm here by choice. Still an Australian citizen, but I love what God's doing. And I've committed to sort of throwing my weight into a work of renewal here. Well, you couldn't have gone to a more fascinating place in terms of trying to build renewal than New York City. One of the two major world centers of thought thinking policy, politics, New York and London. And what drew you in New York City? I moved there in 2005 because I was, I was in my mid-twenties, a typical sort of ministry career pathway, youth pastor, college and youth pastor. And I didn't want to just go and pastor a suburban mega church. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I have a lot of friends who do that now. But I felt like the world was moving. Urbanization was moving. Post-modernism was becoming popular. And I wanted to go to a global center. Like Paul ended up in Rome and loved it. I wanted to go to a place that really needed a fresh expression of the kingdom of God. Yes, there were people faithfully serving New York for decades. But when I moved there, the evangelical percentage was 2% in Manhattan. And we send missionaries to the 1040 window for rates like that. So I felt like I loved the city. I had a sense of calling there. I wanted to go to a place where the gospel was underrepresented and felt like I could make a, make a larger difference. The reason I have stayed is because I've fallen in love with the people in the city. It's my home. I went for strategy and mission and I stayed out of love. So I feel like a fish in water when I'm there. These are the people that I love. These are the people I'm going to fight with. So yeah, yeah, you know, I have a great respect for what you do, John. And read your materials, my son and I. We did a podcast prior. I wanted to do this because I want to also invite people who are listening right now to our summit where you'll be speaking to the Christmas network to our leadership. And it is open. If you want to register, it's almost full, but it's cmn summit.com, cmn summit.com. It's, we call it our lion's roar and it's time to men get together and and really strategize because because strategy is what produces victory and all strategy comes out of wisdom. When the Bible says to gain wisdom, it doesn't say you're going to just get it dropped on you. And so gaining wisdom means formation, right? And it's also what you do with men. And that is, here you are, pastor of a local church, multi-campus style, actually have rebirth, the church there in the church of the city. And actually the coolest website of any church in America, church.amlc. As a strong URL, yes. You can't get much better net. But out of that, you've also become very focused on forming men. But I want to ask you something just a couple of quick bam, bam, bam, if you don't mind. Okay. A couple of things. And beautiful resistance. You talked in there about rest and about burnout. Was that something you hit in your own life as a leader working? Was this something you saw in your in your men in the people around you? I have never burned out. As a young leader, every conference I went to when I was young had a talk in it called, don't blow your life out by working too hard on neglecting your family, every conference I went to in my early 20s. And so I thought for myself, I'm the biblical definition of a fool if I don't learn from this. So I have always taken rest very seriously. I work very hard, work a lot of hours, super passionate. I have to force myself to take the Sabbath. Like I have to literally stop myself from working. I love what I do so much. But I just decided I don't want to be a statistic of burnout. I've got zero judgment for people who do. It's so hard to manage and get life right. I just remember thinking to myself, this is one thing I've got to get right in my life. So always had good boundaries, had very intense seasons where I pushed those boundaries. But wanted to sort of give people a vision of life without burnout, living out of overflow rather than scraping off the bottom. Being in a rest deficit, we are always chasing getting back to zero rather than thriving and, you know, having a bond that. So I haven't always done it perfectly, but I have done it consistently. Yeah. And I think that's it's it's long obedience. I think Dallas Woolord, didn't you say it, obedience, long obedience in the same direction. And so yeah, I think that's really important thing. I want to recommend everybody beautiful resistance, which is one of the books you've written. One of many prolific author and in these things, not only, you know, it's one thing to, I remember one time I got a guy say about another man that I do, he says, yeah, he leaves no good thought unpublished. But your stuff's got content, you know, sometimes you can read the first chapter and he's go, okay, I got it. Like who moved my cheese? I don't know, what the guy's 80 million of them. Yes. And I had about a chapter and a half, I got it. Yeah. You know, but it was a great, great title, great theme, but beautiful resistance. Chapter seven, one of the things you put in error was about love must resist hate. Yes. This is really difficult. Yes, particularly in the culture in which you and I are living because everything is amplified now. Yes. How does love resist hate? How do we resist hate when hate's trying to kill us? You know, I was meditating on that passage a couple of mornings ago, actually, this is, it's Jesus teaching in Luke's gospel, Luke's version of the summer on the Mount. And Jesus talks about being kind and blessing those and loving those who persecute us and who are our enemies. And he says this, and then you will be sons of the most high. And he says, for your father is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Let that price sit in your father is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. So when we are kind to the ungrateful and the wicked, I think that is the actual place our faith is manifest. Jesus goes on and he says, if you love those who love you, like what credit is that to you, even like non-believers do that. So the key is it's only possible through the power of the Holy Spirit. It's the love of God. The Bible says God's love is shit of brought in our hearts through the Holy Spirit. So it's obviously not something we can generate in ourselves. We can't will ourselves to do it. We can obey father your word says to. So I'm going to make a declaration of this, but I'm going to need your power to back up my obedience so I can become my experience, not just my declaration. Yeah, it's John 20 where he says he breathed on the disciples. And then after that, he said, okay, now you're going to have to do some difficulty. You're going to have to forgive people. Yes. We forget that. That's not true. Yeah. Yeah. First, he breathed the Holy Spirit on us. This stuff is our fallen human frame, man. We want to lash out. If you get hit, especially as a guy, you know, it's that thing about, you know, when you get hit and face, turn the other cheek. Yep. Do that. That's not easy. That's not. Especially with, especially when you can just sit there kind of anonymously on Twitter and just slam somebody. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like, it's we're fighting spiritual battles with human tools and pulling bones against doing that. Stop getting sucked into the cultural drama and have spiritual power, have spiritual authority. It doesn't mean you don't have a strong opinion. It doesn't mean you don't hold your ground or take a stand. This means you do it in the way that Jesus did it. And sadly, most of Jesus' anger was, well, sadly, the way we express anger is so different than Jesus. Most of Jesus' critique was aimed at the religious and most of his mercy was shown to the wicked. And for us, most of our mercy is shown to the religious and most of our anger is shown to the wicked and we're not doing what Jesus taught us to. So one of the church has very little credibility. The early church conquered the world through suffering love. Wow. Took down the Roman Empire. They literally, they died better. As martyrs, they forgave better. And then over the course of time, that supernatural power, the cross implemented, overcame the mightiest empire in history to that time. And the reason we're not overcoming is because we're not utilizing the weapons of warfare that God's given us. Well, yeah, man, that's a hard thing though. We're a risk avoidance. I mean, that's how we're built. Our brain is designed to keep us alive. Yes, right? Yes, but your spirit is designed to die. Yeah, it's fantastic. How do we, how do we deal as as men's leaders, pastors, there's a red book, God, Human Animal Machine by Megan O'Giblin, who's, she's a writer with Wired magazine and she's deconstructing her faith. She's in the middle of it. And so the book, she wrote, was sort of her search for meaning, which means her own definition. How do we deal with deconstructionism? Well, deconstruction in its purist form comes from Derrida and Ficoe. So like French, French principal of philosophers, there's two thoughts. Number one, so I'll share what Derrida said about it, which I think is actually really insightful. Number one, we've got to realize this a lot. Jesus was very upset at broken human systems that required being torn down. You go read Matthew 23 is critique to the Pharisees, Brutavipus, sons of hell, white wash tombs, you make, you make people twice as much a son of hell as you are. I mean, these are to the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. I mean, this is, I mean, they crucified it as extraordinarily offensive. So there will always be a Satan strategy to distort God's church, be human pride, unformed ambition, you know, all that brokenness gets into the church and then wrecks the church. It's the flesh in religious systems. So that stuff probably needs to be deconstructed. So I think there's a legitimate form where we question and challenge that which has established itself in the name of God, but it's not living up to it. It's called. But then there's a secular form of deconstruction, which is sort of like a godless process. Oh, it's a it's an attempt to exert the sovereignty of self over everything else. There you go. Here's here's what here's what Derrida said. Derrida said, this is a summary because the language is way too technical. In essence, he said, if you've had a sincere experience of grace, nothing can deconstruct grace. I don't know, authentic encounter with the grace of God in your soul, deconstruction as he proposes it cannot touch it. But he said, the second that grace is embodied in a creed, a community, and a religious hierarchy. It is subject to corruption and demands deconstruction to get back to the authentic form of grace. So that's when Paul Paul is saying in secretions, test yourself, see whether or not Christ is in you. And a lot of what is happening is that these people are realizing they've never actually been truly converted to an authentic encounter of grace. And they have they have participated in the phenomenal logical aspects of religion. And so to simplify that, it's like you went to the concert and had a great buzz because the vibe was good. Yeah. And so there's a lot of people who have like been in groups and felt loved and they think that's they're a Christian. There's people who've gone to worship services, had an emotional experience and think they're Christian. But Christianity is in essence Christ in you. And so there's some folks who are deconstructing and realizing they're never truly converted. They were just experiencing the effects of converted people and institutions. So it's it's a messy it's a messy attitude that requires mercy for those genuinely struggling, power age for those really speaking truth to power and rebuke for those who have never truly been born again in the bashing down the systems. And that requires, as you said earlier, wisdom. There was never Jesus never invited people to follow him that he was usually command, wasn't it? Well, he just says the only the only thing the only moderating phrase I can think of is he says if anyone wants to follow me that if is big. So he puts the conditions down. He never he I think your point is he never said do it your way or if you want to. Yeah, or it was strong. It was a strong strong call. Yeah. Yeah. And I think of one of my favorite little books that I've carried around and ordered some over the years for years is a great man who started to use specialties with some other great friends, Ray Johnson and others, Mike Ackinelli. He wrote a book years ago, a little booklet called Messy Spirituality. Yes. Yes. And I think it may have been the last thing he wrote before his is going to heaven. But in it is like, okay, we have to be comfortable with the fact that there is messiness to it. And there are things that I just don't get. And I try, you know, we as humans, we want to put everything in a little box, especially guys, Western culture. Right? Yep. It goes in a little box. And then postmodern. I don't like that. Don't get it. Don't want it. But if I'm really going to be a Saul provider in the culture, I need to grab a hold of some of these things. Yeah. Well, you're hitting on the key. The key for modernism and postmodernism is control. And the thing about faith and religion, particularly the Christian faith is it's not an exercise in theology or philosophy. So if it's you studying theology, being in charge of the interpretation, you're doing theology. But you don't say like all good relationships have an element of risk to them. When you get married, when I've been married 24 years, I married a young, beautiful woman. I met my freshman year of college. And I didn't say to her, look, I need guarantees. I need guarantees. I look 30 years from now, I need a guarantee. There are no guarantees there's faith and trust in what you know in the person. And there is the absolute terror living that out day to day through commitment. So a lot of people think they're doing religion, but they're just doing theology or philosophy. And so some folks who are deconstructing, some people are desperately trying to enter faith authentically for the first time. But a lot of folks are literally trying to control God and say, you will only be the kind of God that I can understand. And again, that's an exercise in philosophy, theology, but certainly not an exercise in faith. It comes back to the original issue, self sovereignty. Yes. There's a great phrase that you use and you've taught and I watch your videos. Because there's a book called, I'm in a doctoral program with Leonard Sweet. One of the works he has for he was rationality by Stephen Pinker. And it's interesting. It's his huge book. And he's extremely well-known, out of Harvard. But really as I read it, I realized that his rationality, the center of rationality was he wanted to decide what truth was. So rationality for him came out of his definition of truth rather than the fact that truth is a person. Yeah, it's not even just a set of objective moral ideas or philosophical thesis. It is like that's what that's where people are getting it wrong. And authentic faith is the wonder and terror of journey with a God. You cannot fully understand or control, which is the mystery of all love. All love is terror and wonder and you cannot control it. Yeah, it's fantastic. You guys have been married how long? 24 years. 24 years. And where do you meet your wife? Met her to coerfuls college in Northeast Georgia. Really? Yeah, doing a campus orientation tour. August 1997. As the kids say, the late 1900s. Oh, yeah, or a few minutes ago. And so, yeah, that's fantastic. So yeah, she was in, was at a Bible college. Yes, it's actually a Christian was in real life school. Oh, really? I think there's six of them. Yeah, Nyak, Crown, Simpson. There's another one. But anyway, not to coerfuls is one of them. Yeah, they're not seem to tie tight from the school. So that's good. Judy Knight, my wife and I met. We've been married 51 years. Oh, wow. I actually kind of run across her a couple of times. You know, I hear guys all the time. And by the way, John Tyson, let me mention this again, John Tyson will be at our Christmas. No, it lines roar. Just coming up November three, four and five, see him in summit.com. If this is after that time in 2022, it's the first weekend of November every year in Dallas. And he's just going to come and kind of stretch us and get us help us think rightly. One of the things I hear guys say all the time, John, is I married my best friend. And I finally just pushed back on that. And I just, I was at a conference the other day and speaking in front of a lot of people. And I said, I didn't marry my best friend. I married the sexiest woman I'd ever met. Because I was not looking for a best friend. Yeah, I was looking for a woman. And but we had become best friends and fair partners. And bone of my bone flesh and my flesh, right? I mean, we're we're that. And so there's nobody I'd rather hang out with. And it's been time with. And so anyway, so that's I think it's fantastic 24 years. And really frankly, part of what you and I are dealing with when we're talking about being a man of of commitment, conviction, which is you talk a lot about that in your materials and resources. A man of a man of his word is when you get married, Judy and I did a 50th anniversary, little podcast. And I said, maybe why'd we stick together? She said because we didn't have there was nothing else on the table. Yeah. There was no. I agree. We had no place else to go. And not that, you know, not that there weren't a few moments. Somebody asked me one time, what's your what's your scripture? You know, like what's scripture do you have that tell this together? Dude, I don't know. So no, I mean, you know what? I said, okay, Iron Sharpen's Iron. What that one? So I think that's kind of how we've melded together. You have John talking with John Tyson, church of the city, church dot NYC and also forming men.com. And I'm just just absolutely fired up about what you're doing with forming men. With Christian Miz Network, I just got to tell you we are we are advocates of anybody and everybody who will take the plunge to really spend time helping men find their center. That's what I love about you guys. I I love that. Yes. Yeah. So I mean, we're all about it. It's just like it's a kingdom thing. Yeah. So forming men.com, forming men.com, becoming a man doesn't happen by accident. Men are formed. And this is something it looks like this is this kind of just exploded out of your life, out of your heart and out of your intentional father and that book's fantastic. By the way, intentional, the intentional father. It's a great book. It's on Amazon. I know you can get it other places probably going your website and so forth, but is a great resource. I will tell you the one thing I realized that it's starting to go in and read it. It actually takes work to be a dad. Yes. Yes. It is the hottest thing I think you'll ever do. It's fantastic. Yes. It's amazing, but I'm looking at my kids a lot of time. I was like, and I love them and I miss them, but I was like, man, my schedule is wide open. My schedule is wide open. That's pretty crazy. Yeah. I need a drink. Yeah. Yeah. But tell me about this, man, this is you're doing retreats, primal path, which is a fantastic resource for fatherhood. Conferences. Florian Men.com. Tell me about this, John. Yeah. I wrote this book called the intentional father and I basically realized all societies had a process for making men. A journey from adolescence into adulthood to channel male energy in a healthy way where the only society in the recent memory that doesn't have this and that's why society is absolutely in chaos. I went back, read all the books about how I used to do this and then said, you know what, let me design this for my son. So I designed it for my son, turn it into a course called the primal path, turn it into a book, and it's done, you know, 10 times better than anything I've ever could have hoped or drained. I think it's met a real need. It's become the book a lot of times that when someone says, I've just had a son, someone says, read this and I'm grateful for that. But here's what I noticed. A lot of, I was getting so much, so many emails from, from dads going, I'm taking my son through this and I never went through this. Do you have a thing to form men? Like I need a backfill. And so it started me asking the question, yeah, how is a man formed? And I got five big ideas. Number one, formation is like a man has to get a vision of becoming like Jesus. That's it. Like it's so ultimately a man has to realize the thing he is, as Paul said, I mean, the pains of childbirth and to Christ has formed in it. Then you've got to understand your deformation. What's jacked you up? And you really got to get into that so not below the surface. Then you've got to have how to formation, which is in what ways do I have to apply the Christian tradition to help me? And then you need transformation, which is actually the process of those things working. And at the end, confirmation, which is about choosing the cruciform life, which is choosing the way of Jesus, the way of the cross, the way of self-denial and not the way of the world. So our stuff sort of built on those five pillars. It's like making Jesus the most compelling man and Jesus sets the standard, realizing where you're jacked up, figuring out the toolkit to help transform you and then helping you choose the way of the cross. So yeah, we've started doing these retreats and the feedback's just been amazing. It's just been amazing. And look, there's been men laboring in this space faithfully for decades. Yeah. We love all that. We're building, we're building on all of that stuff. We love it. So if people can't even say, what do you think about this book? I'm like, I love that book. What do you think about this? I think ours is just perhaps a timely, it's a timely version. And I think maybe it's my combination of being living in New York and being somewhat known as a, I don't know, like a thoughtful teacher or more of an intellectual than then, I don't know, than not. And so I'm bringing perhaps like a level of the other. Yeah, you know, I thought for teacher. And so I think it's like the depth at which we're heading this and the freshness and awareness of changes and sociology and culture. How to really apply it with biblical truth. It seems to have resonated well. So I said to you earlier, we're a tiny little piece of the wall. God's rebuilding the wall. We're a tiny little piece. But we're a potent little piece. And we're really enjoying what's happening here. So I'm looking at a book right now on, on masculinity, trying to write in light of all of the stuff that's happening in our culture. That's between shame and stereotypes to become a man go wants you to peace. So we'll see, see how it goes. I think it's fantastic. I, I'm just all behind it now. I'm all for it. That's great. It's because it's, hey, here's the deal. If you change a heart of a father, you change the future of the world. That's so true. And most ministry of men has been based on information. And information can easily become inspiration, but very quickly becomes evaporation. Yeah. You know, the whole you, the man thing and looking to mirror. And then later that day, you're like, I was the man. And, and so there has to be the incarnation, which, which I look at it as there has to be a revelation of Christ. Yeah. Incarnation of the spirit, which produces a transformation in lifestyle. In other words, it's in a book I wrote called Justice Bartender, which is your hands will always do. It's in your heart. And religion tried to change our hands. Yeah. And didn't change our heart. And it's, it, you go back to, you go back to Gideon. What was, why did Gideon's life actually end in failure? The day he died, it says in the chapter eight of judges, verse 33 says the day the Gideon died, Israel turned back the bail. God. Think about this. The day he died, he lost his kingdom. This is over 50 years of prosperity coming out of the caves, right? Was it judges six? And it says it, this is the whole being a Gideon generation. And you preached it as a youth pastor, right? Yes. And Gideon tears down the tower, the pole, what are they? Sort of the air, fruit. Yeah. And so you're the theologian. I'm just a guy. I'm a practitioner. So you know this stuff. But he tears down that thing and we're all like, yeah, do that. And he's like 16, 17 years old. And then they come out of these caves. They come into prosperity and the day he died, now watch this. You go back to verse 30, John. And it says Gideon had 70 sons. Let me ask you something, how many of those sons stood up on the day he died and said, this is not who we are. And what Gideon's failure was, was he didn't disciple his sons. And they didn't know their identity. And if you will, you go back, I'll just take a little sidebar, a little sidebar. When Gideon was first approached by, you know, Theophany, Presence of Christ, the angel of the Lord Jesus himself says, hey, mighty man of valor. And Gideon says, no, you don't know who I am. And he gives the gives the Lord his identity. I'm I'm from the least tribe. I'm the least in my family. My family is the least in the tribe. And I'm the least in the family. No reason the national whip. Who told him that, John? Right. How did he know that somebody had already formed his mind as a 14, 15, 16 year old young man? Because, you know, 75% of that formation happens between the ages of seven and nine. Now here he is formed of who he is as identity, all behavior follows belief, decisions followed definition. And so Gideon goes back 50 years later, says he went back. Remember, he had all those kings, he defeated in the battle. It gets all their earrings and gold and silver and all that. And it says, he goes to his his village where he grew up and he created an E5. He created a monument to the glory of God in the village where he grew up. Basically, it's going back to your 10th year high school reunion and wanting to go back in a gold medal flake Corvette. He goes back to his village, built an E5 and it says it became a snare for his family. Why? Because he was basically saying, hey, what do you think of me now? In other words, John, he never got over his father wound. Yes. He never got over the fact that that village called him a whip. And 50 years later, he's the king, but he never got over it. And so he never discipled his sons because he never felt qualified. He never got rid of that. And not one of those 70 sons stood up and said, this is not who we are. This is not our identity. Not one. And he lost the kingdom. And I know there's, you know, we know the stories after that, you know, one time kill the others and then all the things that happen after bottom line is, if we don't disciple the next generation, we lose everything. What a word. What a word. Come on. So forming men.com, forming men.com. Coming man doesn't have my accident men are formed in John Tyson. And that's no age in that. No, wait. J. O. N. Not to be confused with the chicken baron. Yeah, that's right. That's the Titan chicken. You're not the billionaire. And not the billionaire. Not here on earth anyway. But you're, you have a wealth of life in you, John. And I, it's there's a, there's an old King James word, if you will, that is, you know, jealous of that for the sake of the kingdom. And I desire, I have a heart's desire to see men like you next generation. I remember I, I sat one day with a guy named Robert Schuhler. He was really well known years ago here in the U.S. It was on television and stuff. And we spent the whole afternoon together. And he asked me if I had a word for him. And I said, I do. And I said, he had tent, Paul said to the church of Corinth, you have 10,000 instructors, not many fathers. And so Dr. Schuhler, your generation were instructors. You didn't father us. See, the key is an instructor gives you what he knows, but a father gives you who he is. Yeah. And he went and his inimitable fashion goes, oh, and in fact, I set up a series of conversations for him with young leaders in which he shared with his stories in small meetings, rather than these big conferences. He'd done 38 years of pastor's conferences. He said, I'm not sure I taught any of them. Truly what being a father in the faith is. You're right. My point is, John, that it's, I don't know that we all did it right, but I do believe that men my age are catching on, getting it, fathering the next generation, empowering men like you and that it's going to increase because we're raising up fathers. And a father wants the next generation to succeed. And I'll just finish one final little illustration. My son, Bryce, was probably seven years old. His brother ate and put them to bed one night. And he laid down seven or eight years old and he said, he laid down his bed and he goes, dad, think how good my kids are going to be at basketball. Because I played college basketball and both of them ended up playing college ball. And I said, what do you mean? He said, he said, my kids are going to be really good at basketball. I said, why is that? He says, because think how much better I am than you are. The dude's like seven. Yes. You know, you got the rim pulled down. Yes. It's not even not even playing the real guy. And I'm like, I'm going to do let's turn the lights back on. Go back out. And then I thought, you know what? Dude, he's right. That's my desire. I want my kid to be better and want his kid to be better than that. That's a heart of our father. That the kingdom of heaven increases. That that acts to 17 comes alive. That the power of the whole in the last days, I will pour out my spirit on all flesh. I live in four words. So we say it, I will pour out my spirit on all y'all in the last days. And we're all shook by everything is going on, John. But I see guys like you, men like you and men like the men you're hanging with and my son Brandon and my son Bryce and my son on the aisles and young pastors and leaders and their thirties and forties just cranking it. And I have an amazing, not just hope, but I think it's I have a great trust in the next generation faith. I think you guys are going to be amazing. Anyway, John Tyson will be and we can go on. Just already is fantastic, John. Thank you for being on Brave Men today. What a joy. Thank you for your wisdom. We're leaking out of you. We're leaking out. It does sort of just ooze. Yeah, it's times. And so you'll be with us at Lion's Roar. See him in some of dot com. Krishamon's network. See him in some of dot com. And I'm looking forward to hanging out and I'm looking forward to times in the future that we can hang out. I want to come to one of your things, man. I'll hook you up. Let me know. Yeah. Thanks. Anyway, talk with John Tyson Church of the city. It's church dot NYC forming men dot com. And John, thanks for being who you are. And thanks for you know, Sam Chan's got a great line. He says your level of leadership will only rise to the level of pain you're willing to endure. And so I want to thank you for taking the pain of writing for discipline. You know, true vision is forced in the discipline to extract yourself from the unnecessary. And you've done that. And that's what focuses intentionality, not intensity. So thanks for doing that. And thank you to your wife. Yes, I meant. Right. She's an amazing woman. She only she knows what it is cost her for me to do my ministry. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. And and thank you for your to your son for letting him be the experiment. Yes. You know, for he didn't know. He didn't know. I didn't know at the time. I mean, I was just trying to love him. You know, someone actually I just finished doing the primal path with him. And I was having dinner with like a with a friend of mine. And uh, you know, well, well, not, well, not increasingly that. And I said, Oh, man, I'm so tired. I just finished just this thing with my son. And he said, what are you going to do with it? And I was like, I'm not going to do anything with it. I'm done with it. And he said, brother, this is not just for you. This is for generation. You got to jump. And I'm grateful for his word in my life because otherwise, it'd just be a small part of my story. So I'm grateful. It's fantastic now. Anyway, John, it's great spending time with you. And I think that the men all over the world that listen to brave men are part of this podcast. Appreciate you. Pray for you. Stand behind you. Uh, amplify you. And thank God for your voice, John. God bless and my attention being with brave men. My words might work. You've just experienced brave men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.