BraveMen S4E134: JESUS and Fatherhood with Pierre du Plessis

One of the clearest communicators of the gospel of Jesus Christ is the man you're about to meet Pierre Duplicé. He speaks with such clarity and in words we understand. Chris, our producer and I were talking about a little bit ago in 1 Corinthians 14 where it says, I would rather speak words that people understand than 10,000 words that they don't. And I know he was talking at that time about tongues, but I think sometimes we speak in words that many of us don't understand. I mean, if you will, sometimes people do that on purpose in order to show how smart they are. So, but I think it takes a greater genius to speak in a language that I can understand and that I can walk with. And Pierre Duplicé does that. We ask a number of friends, would you talk with me for a little bit about Jesus? Who he is in your life? Maybe something historical, maybe a different perspective on walking with Christ. And so we ask Pierre Duplicé. He's the pastor. He is his awesome wife, Marlies. They pastor at Father's House in Rochester, New York. I'm not sure. They're from South Africa originally. You'll hear a little bit of an accent that comes out of the Republic of South Africa. But I'm not sure. I remember asking him, do you know where Rochester was when you answered the call of God to go there? Because it gets cold, man. But a fantastic church, great group of people, a reemerging city and a city that's blessed by God because they're in the midst of a renewal and revival there. So, this is going to be awesome. You're going to enjoy this Pierre Duplicé today on Brave Men. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. We're talking with Pierre Duplicé and Pierre's great friend, he pastors at Father's House in Rochester, New York, you and your beautiful wife Marlies. And this whole thing of Christians giving their lives for Christ, standing up, it's an amazing thing. You talked about Easter, you talked about what Jesus did for us. And these men in the book of Acts and the Christians today, they're doing it, whether it's Nigeria, Libya, Somalia, wherever it may be, something happened to them. Death in the resurrection of Christ, something happened to them. We're in the middle of Easter time right now, talking with Pierre Duplicé and Pierre. Leave us into that phrase that you gave us on that great message you did on the actual Easter Sunday. Yes. So, you know, what's interesting about Easter, I've had now the privilege at the Father's House is my 22nd Easter. So, after a while, you think how many cubes and how many spheres can you come into that story? And what was interesting for me, I've been reading during COVID, a lot around spiritual formation and a lot of, I think, especially with young, young pastors, young people, there's a lot of deconstruction taking place. Which is not dangerous, it's just dangerous when you do it in isolation with people that have not done proper construction yet. Because you can't deconstruct what you've not spent time first constructing. And then the other dangerous is if we don't move back and construct something, we can actually have conviction behind. Because the question that I think we take deconstruction into avoid. And that void can be filled by anything if we don't have anything. Yeah, it doesn't take a genius to deconstruct. You just need to ask a lot of questions. It is, I think, the way we're going is the New Testament church had such a deep conviction that they were willing to die for it. But yet there was a fear and they first were trying to preserve their lives. They didn't want to stand out. I think that was the pressure with Peter. It's his anti-culture that made him visible. There was something different about Peter. Peter would hangari during Easter. Jesus was carrying the cross and then there was a man's Simon of serene and there's so much beautiful narrative behind him. He was in the crowd and hangari was a term where they could seize any Jew to usually carry packs to carry loads. That's where we find where Jesus is when somebody asks you to walk mile, walk two miles. That's an hangari. If they ask for your cloak, give them your under cloak, that's hangari. They cease upon the whole person. And they shouted hangari to Simon of serene that he would carry the cross. But what was so beautiful for me in studying and reading up on this. There were two things that were so beautiful about the cross. He carried the weight of following Jesus but he didn't carry the punishment that only Jesus could pay. The second thing is he was walking behind Jesus. He didn't carry the cross and Jesus was behind him. And again, prophetically echoed the words which Jesus says, you've got to pick up my cross daily and follow me. And I think there was a weight to following Christ. There was an expected pushback when we begin to live an anti-culture, the resurrected life, the better life. That is really what it is. When we begin to embrace that, there is no longer a question of sin, but what is unbecoming of this new life? Because this new life is a Christ life. But it comes with a weightedness and it comes with a responsibility. And the possibility to lose, I'm going to use this word, if we cannot be willing to be peaceable while we misunderstood. I think then certainly isn't the world today. No, no, because we understood we broadcast it. Yeah, we want to fight it. We want to fight it. We want to fight it. We want to fight it. I read such a good quote last night. And oh, I'm trying to, let me see if I can find it. It was such a stunning quote because it talks about. Was this in my book? Was this in my book? Because I could probably give you the quote. You know what? I'm going to say what the quote is, and I'm going to say it's in your book. How's that? That's a good friend right there. Of course. He talked about the Baroness of Reason. If all we live is in the realm of the Baroness of Reason, because Reason only brings you to a more depleted place of hopelessness, now what do I believe? And Reason usually puts you in a place where you no longer believe, because you feel there is no absolute, but conviction by the Holy Spirit. Usually comes at relationship in its scripture. Because somebody's got to teach and somebody's got to hear and somebody's got to see. And I think that's why, for me, a poor person, I believe as we've seen many restorative movements. I believe that the movement that we need to see with our kids and the movement we need to see in our churches is a restorative movement of strong, basic theology that is rooted in scripture. I think for too long, well, we've had so many other restorative movements come through, but I think this is a big one. The hangari on our lives, and we should be able to articulate what it's costing us. Yeah, this is, you know, it's a remarkable thing, you know, Easter in all of it. And of course, we're in Easter time as you and I talk, which is that 50 day period from, from the resurrection to the Pentecost Sunday, 40 days of appearances of Christ and 10 days of the men and women in the upper room. And so this whole Easter time, this thing we're in really kind of centers us doesn't it focuses us on the life of Christ and the thing that that that I always come back to appear is that he didn't do his own thing. It wasn't like Jesus came and was like, at first of all, it wasn't like Jesus just arrived in the middle of the Bible. No, no, no, it's all about him. So we're going to so we'll predicate with that. But he said, I only do what the father shows me. So the father. So when we see, when we all know who God is, we look at the life of Christ. Yes. So him, you know, when we talk about carrying the weight of that, Jesus also said, my yoke is easy. My burden is light. How do you, how do you work between that? I think the biggest part when Jesus said, I actually preach such a great message on that, when Jesus talked about my burden is easier, my yoke is like Paul, I'm going to say something that I think is equally dangerous to say without context. The burden that he was referring to was the burden of the burden of the law. The burden of having, and you and I, I think, let me just speak personally, I live in that burden all the time. I know I'm saved by grace, by faith in Christ. But somewhere in my theology, I stay saved by good works. And if you stay saved by good works, you are putting on a burden for yourself. Okay. That is, that was the burden of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, the burden of all the rules that comes with a complicated life. And what Jesus was saying that my burden is easy because it is about love for God and love for people, but it doesn't make the cross lighter. It just doesn't put any unnecessary things on that. So you're carrying the cross, you're not carrying the cross out. And I think the problem that I see today is that we love the cross that points to forgiveness. But we don't love the cross that points to death to self. And that was the original sin, right? It's the independence for it. They wanted to be like God. And my biggest fear that I see, or not fear, and I'm self-referent. Yeah, it's a concern is that I think that church has preached forgiveness, but not Lordship. And I think that burden of the cross is not into not sinning any day. The burden of the cross is to pluck the root of self or independence. We want to be partnership with God. And that's why Jesus said, I mean, coming to do the will of my father, he didn't have a co-dependence. He had he had total independence, and yet in get 70, he had to wrestle. Stay that in the face. Yeah. And that that's why we're such a bloody prey. There's a man. So I think part of your life and my life and maybe I can ask you, what part of you has died and picked up the cross? And what part of you is still bucking? Well, that's that that's that whole self thing, isn't it? It's it goes back to this real simple picture for me, because I'm and again, our ministry to men with Christmas network. We try to keep it simple. You know, if you will, it's a complex world, but there's simple answers. It's sort of like turning on a light switch. It's pretty simple, but behind it is a is a multitude of complexities. For me, it's sort of like this God created us in his image and ever since then we've tried to return the favor. And so create God in in our image and that's that basically is it. We become the center of our world and all you're really talking about is is making crisis center of our world. So when you talk about that, that does become that's a daily walk right there. That's a daily walk. Now Jesus said, I only do what the father shows me. So let me talk about let me talk about your background. I want to move it into fatherhood. Yeah. Because your church is called the father's house. Yes. So you obviously, you know, in 1999 when you planted the surgeon Rochester, New York. I think most people can tell already by by just a bit of an accent that Rochester, New York is not where you started. No, no. Yeah. And but when you planted, you called the father's house. You had you had choices. You have many different things you could have called it. Tell me about your background growing up. You grew up in Joe Burke and Johannesburg. Yep. My dad has been pastoring his congregation, I think for 59 years. Wow. And he's old penny castle, you know, he buries them like he married them with joy. He is, yeah, he's just the trip, you know, faithful soul. I think the deepest legacy that he left with me is a deep reverential fear of God. I think that is so important. Wow. Because he constantly reminded us when he feels there's gossip around the table when he says, can I just remind you that the only spiritual is here. Let's not let's not grieve him. And my dad modeled pray like nobody I know clean life. But I grew up with a different culture about me. I didn't quite know why I didn't fit into the culture that was associated with my house and the church. So when I had an opportunity, I was in stock with my dad for four years, three years. I planted a church in Johannesburg for six years before we came to the US. Are you dead? And I realized that God was preparing me for something else. It's not that my culture didn't fit. It's God prepared a culture in me that would fit where he would send me. And I think that was such a beautiful thing. And again, the first time we came, it didn't work. We lost everything and had to go back to South Africa after we sold to resign, sold houses, sold our car. It was terrible. Back to Johannesburg. But the first time you came was to Rochester also. No, it was to Washington DC. You went to Washington DC to plant the church. Yes. I didn't even go at all, you know, because there's so much. There's so much blind faith. I was raised with it. The Bible says that you do it. You're not wise. You just do it. And I think wisdom, anybody asking wisdom, it's an act of humility. It's not an act of unbelief or no faith. Yeah. Because we did the right thing, but we did it the wrong way. So when we went back for 18 months, it was extremely hard, but I knew that God had something else for us. Because I read a scripture on our way back and it's such a long story. Remain in this land and I will bless you in your descendants. But we couldn't. My lease was eight months pregnant. We've run out of money because I spent all the money on furniture. So at the end of the day, we set up a house for about $15,000 furniture and everything. We gave that away. And 18 months later, we, I've got a job as the worship director. And the people we gave the furniture to call us and said, Hey, we want to give you all your furniture back after 18 months. And so I drove to Chicago. They were living in Chicago and 18 months later, we sitting in a rental house with all of our furniture back. And shortly after that, I became the senior pastor of the church and felt very deeply that we had to close one in order to start another. And there's some very definite reasons why I feel sometimes that God would have that in mind. Otherwise, you fight what is being. And I think even with COVID Paul, I think if we fight what is being, we are going to miss the blessing of sight. We are not seeing during this COVID season and realizing that it's calling us to something different, a different season too. So yes, so basically the father's house came into play because it is a very diverse church. But yet for me, I've always experienced the father's house, my father's house of one of safety, truth, rebuke, but the unconditional love. Yeah, it was always a place of safety, even when I was stupid. Yeah, all discipline has to flow from love. And so God, the Bible says that God disciplines those that He loves and why is that because He wants to help us move towards our best life. Yes, and really, I really believe the biggest challenge that we are sitting with right now is the fragment, fragmenting of the family. Is that the concept of family can come in so many forms and shapes. We can put indicators around the table and people want to call it family. And I think that for me, this is a personal conviction. The family is the foundational stones of society. That's why what has been perpetrated in the past to remove men out of homes has caused a serious problem that cannot just be fixed in a second because the whole culture had to become accustomed that fathers are sold and taken and children and mothers are left. And that that that vandalizing off the foundational stones has now created a problem that's going to take generations to fix. Well, it's only going to be fixing the church. The father's house is actually it's fascinating to me because you actually the name of your church. And again, you're in Rochester, New York, I'm talking with Pierre Dupelci, who is a pastor's father's house and peer in Rochester, New York, you and your beautiful wife Marlies. And you have a multi-campus church, highly significant church, you have a lot of influence across churches across the United States and North America and Europe and Africa. The world, the world is yours. But you actually named your church, the definition of family. Yes, the definition of family is the father's house. But what is interesting, I preach the message series in January, and it was all about love and a place at the table for, and potentially I didn't do such a great job to explain what the table is. Because I had a table set there and I began to ask the question, who can sit at the table on the weekends, who can sit there. And I think probably in my, in my ignorance, because you know, I think little and speak a lot, I kind of follow myself as I speak, but it comes from a sincere place. I was asking contrasting things, can a democrat sit at the table, can a black lives matter person sit at the table? Can a righteous and unrighteous sit at the table? Can somebody with a sexual identity crisis sit at the table? I said, and the fact that we are answering that shows you how clueless we are to think that this is our table. It's, it's Jesus is at the head of the table. Yeah, it's his table and we find that out in the, in the revelation of Christ. He's at the table. I said, and he always has an agenda. He's a gender is to calls the image of Christ in you, but restore the likeness of Christ. Yeah. And yet people misunderstood that message and it was I, I had I think 14 one on one meetings. Because the question is, it's almost some interpret the table as heaven, some interpret the table as acceptance of people's sin. And I think what it comes back to is what Jesus struggled and all the factions followed him and they wanted to evaluate who's allowed to sit at the table. But the table is a place of sitting with a father, but a father's heart is always to bring the restorative image of what's been marked and call that out as fathers and mothers within the night ability to know the potential of our children. And nobody can teach you, you just know because for one of your kids, they get a see on math. You celebrate them like it's the second coming for another one, they get a B and you, and you scold them, you, you, you, you reprimand them because there's a disproportionate gifting in them for that. And I think the beauty of a spiritual house is when we are surrounded with people that one, we are the court with the mission of the church, your dream, your potential is the mission of the church. Yeah. I agree with you, the role of a father, I believe Pierre is that you reach into the heart of a young person, pull out their future and show it to them. I think so. That's where we get misguided. Now, you said something really, not that you didn't say a lot of things strong already, but you said something that sparked me, if you will, when you said it was a safe place. And one of the things that that a father does is provide a place of security. Yes. Right. So I can be safe here, I can become who I am without without getting blasted for having made a mistake. The problem I think, listen, I've got two young adults, they won us 25 and the other one is 22. And they're highly creative. So creative. So why follows your, your Chloe on Instagram and everything, she's always going, well, look at this, I'll look what she did here. So creative. They have such independent thinking because we expose them to a independent thing is very early in life. I wanted them to be in a very progressive environment so that I can process with them while I still in my house. Because they're going to run into that and there is no processing, but the processing was never one of right and wrong. It was one of processing because ultimately the conclusions and convictions has to come from the Holy Spirit that binds those things together. Otherwise I lock you in with my logic and when you no longer align with my logic, you know it's going to strain the relationship. And I think the most tragic thing of fathers is we want to control to keep them safe. So we are trying to tell them everything they shouldn't do in order for them because usually we are part of the financial cost and the emotional cost of something going wrong. So we actually protecting ourselves. But the reason why I'm saying that I think one of the the best lessons that I learned and I was being picked up from the airport by an associate pastor. And the big churches in all the pastors, kids on this church, he's married to one of the daughters and I laugh, I go, so how's that going? You know, family churches are all different beast. How's that going? He says, well, didn't go so well at first. So he decided he's going to take the pastor's daughter to California and start there because he felt a little bit claustrophobic with his family business. And I said, so how did that go? He says, well, the pastor sat him down and told him everything that was going to go wrong. And why this is a terrible idea. I said, didn't did it go wrong? He says, absolutely. He says, but the only difference is I couldn't go back to her dad for wisdom because he's going to say, I told you so. He says, so I was walking through something with I think my daughter that I had to make a decision on. She wanted to do something and I felt I could control and say, no, if you do that, then I do this. And I said, what would you do? He says, tell her that you believe in her, believe in her judgment. And if anything goes wrong, let me be the first one to come help. He says, because Luke 15, the father, yeah, he says and now she knows if things go wrong, she's relationship. He says you rather defend the relationship than try to protect them from her. They can recover from her, but not many people recover from loss of relationship. Well, wait a minute. I want to camp there for a second. We've got dads listening. And you would rather defend the relationship than try to keep them from getting hurt. Yes. Dude, that's why we keep scoring football games. You know, you're going to get you're going to lose a game. You go, you got to, I mean, every single one of my children has been in my arms crying as a teenager over a lost game. A tournament that they lost something else that happened, they missed the, the shot at the end of the game that would have won it. And I couldn't protect them from that hurt, but by not protecting them from the hurt, I helped them grow what I did was, you've really put a light on that. I hadn't thought of it like that before that's brilliant. What I was doing was I was protecting my relationship with them. Yes. And that's what God does with us. It's always about relationship. He's a God is always there. Always loves us. Never lets us go. His love is unconditional. Man, I'm telling you, man, our world today, we are so into conditional things. Yeah, but it comes with fear. Don't you think, Paul, that it comes with fear and it comes with shame. Fear passes parents. Yeah. A fear because, you know, especially when they are young adults and for the first time, you can't tell them when to come home. Yeah. But you can, but you can, but you can. And you very subtle, right? Fear is the one thing. I think the one that is bigger than that is shame and embarrassment. Because because your children make decisions and then people say, Oh, look at that. Did you see they have tattoos? I can't believe I thought you raised. And I think the thing that frees my heart is that we brought them into the world and we have so good seed. Yeah. I'm not the one who grows it. And I will, I will stand with my children's choices, even if they are bad choices, because I see the likeness and the image of God in them and I faith in the work of the Holy Spirit. And I would rather them feel free to process life and experiment with things. And I consider the same table being the same room, have the conversation that stops my heart. But the proximity to our kids, proximity, when we lose proximity, we lose influence. And for kids, it's the strangest thing that I see Paul, you've got children. You've probably seen that. Did you and Judy always like us board toys that were too old for the kids? Probably did. You grow up. Yeah. Yeah, you give it to them and they don't play with it. Then about eight months later, they play with it because what you thought they needed, they only needed it later. And I think if we understand that what our children need, they're not going to come get it now when we think they should get it. But the day is going to come, if you keep proximity of relationship, where they have lifted enough life, that they will come to you like someone with a patched mouth and they know you are sweet, peaceful, living water of wisdom that will not judge. But you are available even in their failures. They're utter failures, not to judge, but to keep reaffirming and calling out what they've been since the day you held them in your hands. And that's what God does. And that is the father. Come on Paul, how many times that has this happened to you where you screw up? I screw up, I say something, I do something that there's so much guilt now I'm scared to open the Bible and I open it, never get near the hand on the wall. I'm so freaking scared of those things. That's where I grew up with those kind of things. And then when I have enough courage to open the Bible, the tender words of the father is so loving and it's so painful to receive love when you should be scolded and punished. It's a worse punishment when love responds to mercy of a judgment. Mercy of a judgment. And I think we as fathers need to have, whenever somebody dies, I always ask God, can you just forsake and pull the curtain for this family just to have a glimpse of what is? And I think when our kids and people that God assigns to our life is drifting and falling is to ask God, let the picture of who they are never die. Every time I touch them, let me through your spirit raise a wreck more of that in them, because that's what they're seeking. That's what they're seeking. They're seeking significance, they're seeking self-identity. And we as fathers have the most beautiful opportunity that our word shapes beyond any other person's word in this world. Yeah, that's where, that's where, you know, I know you and I have talked about this. I'm talking with Pierre Dupel, C. Piers, and his wife Marlies Pastor of the Father's House in Rochester, New York, which is highly influential outpost of the Church of Jesus Christ. You guys, some of the creativity, the things you share and speak, reverberate across churches, across the nations. And I thank God for you. You tipped over, stuff didn't go well. You went back, but then you just kept walking. You didn't, you didn't stop. You kept walking. Well, you went back, had a baby. Oh, yeah. I thought that was a funny phrase. You spent, you couldn't pay for the baby because you spent all the money on furniture. Yeah, exactly what we did. But, but there's so many beautiful lessons that we learned during that 18 months, Paul, that you, you have to go through it to fully understand it because during, if I can just go back, during the 18 months, when I came over, young and talented, like your sons, talented. You, Paul, you're so talented. You're, you're gifting is so strong and you would think you can take Paul call anyway, and he would just do it again because of, of an innate gifting, it's a disproportionate gifting. And so I thought I could just take that gifting and go to America and just do the same. And it didn't work. And when I went back to South Africa, the more I preached, the more people left the building. And I realized in that season that my gifting at its best is worthless without the anointing of God. Worthless. Worthless. I have nothing to say. There's nothing in me that, that has any hour of attraction or transformation. You know, I just live through that. Dale Bishop, Dale Bronner sent me a little, texted me a little cartoon yesterday. He's a chairman of our board. And he sent me this little cartoon that had had two windows. Okay, so there's two windows of, of with men standing like a ticket window. And there would be a line or a queue behind that. And on the left side, it said, it said, uh, gifts and the prophetic. And there was a huge line. And on the right, it said fruit of the spirit, personal development. There wasn't anybody in line. That's true. That's true. That's the truth. Man, we really lift the gifts at the expense of personal character. Yeah, you know, I think, I think here is the problem that I see Paul. I see that that an American culture is very interesting. But I think it's, it's in European countries as well. Not all. The older you become, the more invisible you become. I don't know how to explain this. I was 33 when I came to the US, I'm in my 50s now. And the thing that I always said is not possible, I can experience that. I can walk past the group of people, young people in the church. And it's like, you know, they don't even see you, you know. And I think then the thing that you can become, that we've got to be very careful of, is you want to stand in that spotlight in such a way and not bring others in, lift others up with your words, and you may shine a little longer, but you will lose, you will rub the future of those that God has assigned to your life to propel them in the mission of Jesus. And I think that that was them. I've always said that wisdom cannot be Googled. Knowledge can. But knowledge without a fruitful life that is applied to knowledge cannot tell you wisdom from knowledge. And I think that the problem that we have is, it's not that the young adults don't want to hang out with sages and wise people. It's that wise people want to compete with the young adults. And when there was a competing spirit in the relationship, you always got it. And I think that the joy for me is that you've seen it, Paul, with your dad, we've climbed the totem pole. We've been to the top and there's only Seagal poop up there. There's nothing up there. Down and realize, this is not what I want to give my life to. And hanging on the totem pole and telling people there's a part of gold up there. Don't want it. So the question is, what do we want to leave? And I think for me, what I want to leave is, as like Paul said about Nisimus, he says, when I received him, he was useless. He says, but now he's become useful to us both. And then he says, this beautiful thing. He says, incending him, it is as if I am sending myself. That's from the book of Philemon. And it's an amazing picture. So whoever's listening or wanting to talk to me, I'm going to say, it is as if I am sending myself. See, that's from the book of Philemon. And it's an amazing picture. So whoever's listening or watching right now, grab that because that is a picture of a father. That's the heart of a father right there. Yes. Because the thing that I think it's the biggest joy is when you make peace with it, that your best fruit will grow on other trees. That's what I want to tell you. Wow. Can you make peace with it? Good. That's so good. You know, Paul said that. Paul, you know, who talking about these things, Paul said to the church of Corinth, he said, you have 10,000 instructors, but not many fathers. Yes. And he was trying to describe his love for them as a father. And when he said that, 10,000 instructors, not many fathers, what it said to me, Pierre, was an instructor gives you what he knows, but a father gives you who he is. Yes. An instructor takes credit for what you're doing. And a father looks at his child out there on the pitch, playing football or rugby or your background's more rugby and soccer. But he looks at his child that there doesn't say, yeah, I taught him that. He says, look at my son. Look at my kid. This is what the father did to his son when his cousin baptized him. He says, my son. Yes. I'm well. Yes. And the words they used in that were so much larger. This is huge, Pierre. You know, this is, this is the type of thing where I just want to suggest that people go to your website. TFN, what is it? TFHNY.org. So it's a father's house in New York. And you can also Google Pierre duplicy. And it's a small DU and in space, PLE SSIS. And so Pierre and Marles duplicy. In fact, however you spell it, it'll still come up on. On the gut go or whatever you're using. And you know, you've done a remarkable thing to father's house, the church, the wave raised your children. And I would just tell people, get up, get up, get the vibrancy of this, get to get the fragrance of it, if you will. The by going to Pierre's website and listening to some of his messages and just getting some of these things, you've written some books. And those books are available on Amazon as well as on the church website. And your wife does sisterhood. Yeah, ladies. And you and I have talked enough to know that I know when you talk about family, you have a keen desire to see men disciple so that so they're not passing on the Greg's of shame. One percent your children's hearts. Yeah, Paul, the work that you are doing with men is so critical. You know, when I look at that and I see it, I know it's the turn key for the family. The wives are the flint. They are the one that burn and hope that it's going to get to the kick, fire kick. But the husband's, if a husband's life is transformed. And I think if a husband begins to love and know how to do it, because the problem is, for most deaths, they don't know how to do it. Yeah. They've got broken relationships with their own fathers. They compete. All they hear from their fathers is how you're doing this wrong and that wrong. And I think what I am picking up on is there are too many men that should be fathers that are still looking for fathers. Exactly. And I think the problem that I have with that is I didn't have a spiritual father that everybody seeks from me. I didn't have that. But that doesn't stop me from being responsive to those that God sent me. I cannot be that to everybody. But I can tell you that once that assignment is given to my heart, I need nothing from them. Yeah. But I want to see them succeed. See that? I need nothing from them. That's the spirit of a father. That is the spirit of a father. Robert Morris, who passes a gateway church here in the South, like we were having lunch some time ago. And we talked about that. And he said, he said a lot of people look at the apostolic as some sort of building a down line or something. And he said, they probably got it wrong. He said, it's, it's a spirit of a father. He said, as he has moved up in his influence and gotten older. He said, being a father to other pastors and leaders and friends. And he said, for me, is helping in not only encourage, but to enable their dream. To help make their dream happen. I'm not trying to shape all of them to look like what I do. And he's done that. He's helped people with their churches and ministries and out of that great church. And they don't look anything like what he does. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Paul. That's the inner father. The interesting part for me is that if we look at Jesus and Peter such a beautiful story, right? No. When, when, when Jesus saw Peter, Peter was an unkept soul. Yeah. He was the best way I can describe it. Unkept soul. These brothers were sons of thunder. You can only imagine that family dinner. But Jesus saw something in Peter. He saw an apostle in a fisherman. He saw it. And the first thing he said is, come follow me. Call them into proximity. Yeah. That's so good. If you can't be in proximity. If you want to be in proximity with everybody, you will actually not be in proximity with anybody. Because proximity is something that you can't give to everyone. But to the people that you see God makes that connection. The second thing is it becomes a private connection. It's not Facebook selfies of look who I just met with. And I think that is what, what, what is quite a testing of your intentions. So if you have, if you have lunch with somebody and you don't put it on Instagram, it still happened. Yeah. You know, the, the, the, the strangest thing is Paul, the, the, the, the people that God has brought along my path and Marlesa's path. And if I give you a list of the people, people who go like, wow, he's really connected, right? Yeah. And part of my deepest commitment is I don't care if anybody knows that I have a relationship with this person. Exactly. I don't care because at the end of the day, they know I am there for them. I'm not, they are not there for me. Wow. So I could be on the phone and strange that they would call me. And then I would go like, I cannot believe that this person doing this thing right now has just called me and all they want to know is the affirmation. And because here's the second thing that Jesus did, he aligned Peter because there is always a drift with young hearts and new hands on navigating life. Wow. And the question really is not advice as much as it's knowledge to discern. Because ultimately it is not, I don't think you should do that. It's saying, where's the wind blowing? What is the compass saying? If you take this turn, you feel it's aligned. It is, it is, it is being, it's just being a sage over their life. And I think here is the biggest thing for me that, that undeniably sits the heart of a father over their children is praying for them like their own. Yeah. You know, because when I call her, call people's names up before the Lord, he, he, he will give me dreams or a scripture. And then I would just, I would just faithfully deliver it. And, and that was it. I don't want to be the weird guy. So toss it out. And you don't even have to reply if it's not something that aligns with you. So I refuse to be a prophet or a sage. I just want to be faithful and make sure they succeed. They run well and finish well. And for some that is fallen, I sent them text messages. For there's one person that's now been eight months and he is still not returned my text message. But I refuse to stop. Because he is tick testing to see for how long will you care while the world doesn't. So I keep the light on. I'm keeping the light on. The day is going to come when you know you need to come sit in a chair. I'll keep the light on. And I think that is, that is the level of a father that Paul, that you and I can sit in the back seat. And the biggest joy is watching our nieces, is doing great things. Father's know how to hug their daughters, speak words of affirmation, marriages that has been restored in the family, that is the solid foundation. And our children will always look for our faces in the crowd. Wow. Always. Always look for our faces in the crowd. So I think if we can say my joy is to see my sons and daughters succeed. And to be that voice and to live that way and be that attentive, it's the greatest gift that God can give. Because there's nothing like the affirming words of a father. God made us to be hungry for it. Around our birthday table, I'll share this last thing Paul. Around our birthday table, you know the Dutch people are not very expressive with emotions. I would get birthday cards. And as a kid, we didn't even read the birthday cards. You didn't read it. It just says who it's from. When I married my wife, it's Christmas time. I didn't even open the cards and she was so offended. Because she's now from a different family. She says, we spend more time buying the right card and writing the right things than the gift. I mean, that was utter stupidity. That's the work. No. So what she began to do Paul is whenever there's a birthday to this day, if you're around our house and it's your birthday, and there would be a long table and everybody would sit there. Then one by one, everybody takes a turn to speak words of affirmation over you. What is so interesting when it happens, everybody around the table is so nervous. My lease is so good at it. It flows from her. And that became such a tradition. And you only know how much it means if it's your turn to sit in the seat. And the words of affirmation that is spoken over you carry you for a lifetime. And I think as far as our words of affirmation, the amount of calls and zooms that I've had during this pandemic, and it wasn't how to grow your church. It was to only to just hear affirmation. Don't be scared of your thinking. This is not going to take you under. If you go under, I have a room upstairs. You can hang out with me and we'll get you back on your feet. Don't worry about the church. It's Jesus' church. We've been through bigger storms. This is only a rain. This is not a tsunami. And affirming God's call on people's lives. And the ability of what is still inside of them untapped. Has the power to change generations. There's this one thing that the Bible says about Abraham. Man, I can talk so much for no reason. We should just hang out and come visit. Listen, listen here. And we do have to close. You are a deep well peer duplicity. Oh, man. I've written down so many things. When I, I've got, I'm speaking in a couple of weeks. And when I do, I just share all this stuff. And I'm going to look like a genius. Oh, do you know what? Listen to me. Where do you get that? I don't know. I just dropped on the one day. This is my favorite thing. He says, and Romans 4, 17. It says that what we always read in Scripture. And God said to Abraham, I set you up as a father of many people. Yeah. And Abraham was first named father. Yeah. And then became a father because he dared to trust God to do what only God can do. And then he says this, when everything was hopeless, Abraham believed anyway. And decided to living not on the basis of what he saw. He could do but what God can do. Now, if we see this, that the first thing that we are is fathers and mothers. And asking our God to give us the sight of heaven to see what God is placed in them. And only he can do. But it's our job to point back to the greater. It's our job to elevate. Our job to put our arms around shoulders and say, stand up straight. That's who you really are. Yeah. Stand up straight. Lift up your chin. You are meant to run with horses. Come on, man. You're feeding donkeys right now because that internal voice is defeating you. It's not who you are. And that's what God did for Abraham. He changed his name from Abraham to Abraham. And the difference is the age. It's it's the age in Yahweh. He gave him his isn't means breath. And when the breath of God hit Abraham and he became able to have. That that breath of God released him into his future. And what you said at the very start of our conversation was without the anointing. Without the breath of God, the rock. Without that breath of God, we can have all of the gifts. We can have all of the we can stand on the stage and do all kinds of stuff. We can, you know, we can follow the little path and rules and regulations of being a dad. But until we have that breath of the father. And that's true. That's what Pentecost Sunday was. Or Pentecost, you know, whenever. Yes, yes. Pentecost happened. That was the breath of God. And we have that. And that's what we need to grab on to. And I thank you up here. You are one of those men who lives out what I call true legacy. And that is that. For most men, what they do in life becomes history. But what you put into motion becomes your legacy. Oh, it's so good. And you are one of those men who have put greatness into motion. Not only in your biological children, but in your spiritual children. And they are many. And I thank you for the input you've had into my son Brandon. And hit and Meredith. You and Marles mean to them in their ministry of C3 church and Fort Worth. And I thank God for you because you do have the spirit of a father. It's attractive because the world. The Bible says the whole world is looking. Yeah. You love the affirmation. Proximity, alignment of a father. I love you, bro. Thanks for being with me today on his Facebook live. And then this will be a podcast. Yes. So pray. Well, I just, I just want to thank you for your faithfulness. Honestly. And your faithfulness. And your faithfulness is because working with men and what culture has engineered into the men's psyche. If ever, there is a, a generation that is struggling with not as much identity, but as they worth what they're supposed to do. And everything that they do is now seen as a diminishing of something else. And I want to thank you because every time I'm exposed to the conference and I see those men. The work that you do because for probably most of this men, if not all of the men that we are seeing, even the guys listening to us right now. It has not been modeled well. And you know, the hardest thing for me was I don't come out of a hugging family. And my wife comes out of a hugging family and she said, we've got to decide. I said, I want to, but I don't know how to. And she said, just get over yourself. Just they need it more than what you think. It's not about you. And she keeps saying it's not about you. And for these men, I want to say it's not about you. Don't feel uncomfortable. Give them what is uncomfortable. And you will quickly see how much life flows from it. Give it by faith. Let, let, let, let love be lavish. And be attentive to people that God surrounds your life with in a season. Some is for a lifetime. Your son for me. There is something in him. I can't wait to go fish with him because I, I see what you probably see. The God is giving him a voice that is going to shape a new, a new posture of young adults, not needing preaching, but extremely anointed conversations. And he is so stinking, smart and good, and he stubbornness is part of God's design. Yeah. Because he's, whatever you say, he's going to be a little left or little right. He's never going to agree with you. He is, what you just said, he, he is a man who loves to embrace the uncomfortable. Yeah. He said, if you're having a conversation, then there's not some uncomfortability in it. You really not having a conversation. That's his motto. Exactly. So when I heard him speak, and it was so clear to me that this is someone that I need to pray for and connect with. Because he's future is, is having and will have ever increasing influence. Yeah. Because he carries on himself with the future needs. And when God adds people like that, why would we not come behind them, remind them, propel them, lift them, because that's somebody lifted us, somebody saw something in us. And yeah, you and I said, but Paul, you carrying this beautiful work. I am, I am forever indebted to you, because I was like 12 years old when I started listening to your dad's maximum manhood. And here I sit. Yeah. No. It's awesome. And now you're living there. No. And I love hanging out with you. And this is, and I think this conversation and people watching and people listening, this is what it looks like to be a father. This is, you know, sometimes we try to make it all these rules. You know, one of the eight steps towards mentoring, one of the 14 things for this, what are the, you know what, it's being present. It's being present, loving, engaging. I love the proximity alignment and affirmation. Yeah. And don't don't stop praying. Yeah. And I think there's this one quote right that, that, that, that, see as Lewis, he wrote this, he says, there was no, hang on, hang on. We closed five times, bro. Listen, listen to this. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. He says, there are no natural ground in the universe. Every square inch, every split second is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan. Wow. That is why our spiritual sons and the people that God connects, we have to keep reclaiming what the enemy wants to claim. The work that we do on our knees is the most profound work. They think it's just going well, but they don't understand that we are doing battle for them on our knees. I think my dad cannot teach me anything about growing church. He cannot teach me anything about theory right now because so much has changed. But the thing that I know, if he goes to Jesus and he's, I think he's 89, I'm losing someone who's contending for me. The peace in my life is as a result of the work that he is doing reclaiming. And I know that. And so we have got to do it for others. So ask God, give me that, give me that fathering heart and that I live my life extremely generous with my love. But we have got to get away from wanting something in return. It's not contractual, it's covenantal. Come on. Hey, so good. Pierre Dupelci, father's house, Pierre Marles Dupelci. And thank you for taking time. I know you've actually taken, you're on a little sabbatical, which is why you're not wearing a Rochester shirt. Yeah, no, I'm right here in the middle of a Airbnb. And you took this amount of time to invest into us and I'm very, very grateful and recognized. Love you, bro. I'll see you. Love you, Paul. Thank you so much. Peace out, guys. you