BraveMen S4E121: Michael Murphy-Navigating Leadership

It's not often you get to interview on a podcast one of your best friends a man who really is part of a family Michael Murphy and his wife Valerie and their Children have been close to us for well since his kids were little And since Michael and I were both younger So he was initially years ago got radically saved and he's gonna give it to his testimony He is now one of the leading coaches for pastors and leaders all over the world with leadership It is how to grow church how to do church in this atmosphere COVID-19 how to build a healthy organization So he coaches CEOs of major corporations as well of pastors of major churches and churches of all sizes In fact his Facebook group for churches and pastors has over 2000 pastors That gets something from him every single week Michael Murphy was Accepted Christ at Hillsong Church back. I mean 30 years ago, and it was first starting and then got so passionate about being a follower of Christ out of a really rough background That he became a guy on staff, and that's where he and I first met in fact Well, we talk about it. He had a little office that had had been a former toilet It was in the bottom of these all this old building That the city gave Hillsong to use for 30 years ago They said here to just use the building if you just keep it up We'll give it to you for a dollar a year So he had a little office that was literally a former Toilet and they had redone it into an office and Nick Kane Who's also on a podcast with us and he and his wife Christine have a 21 an amazing ministry But Nick was one of our first employees. He was coming out of high school every afternoon Duplicating tapes for my father Dr. Ed Cole and so Michael Murphy is absolutely one of the most fascinating people and Learned and a guy who just knows stuff man filled with wisdom He was also a lead pastor. He is why Valerie were lead pastors of a great church in the Shire which is Southern Sydney in the Crenella area for 18 years and now leading Leadership with great coaching and he's the founder of that has a number of coaches on his team And just it this is absolutely going to be a deep moving inspirational revelatory time together on the podcast today and brave men Remember for all the tools you need to disciple men to build a stronger church To you personally becoming the man you desire to be and the man God designed you to be go to see him in dot men christian men's network cmn dot men And you'll find all the tools there Thanks for being with us today. I'm brave men. You're going to love this time with Michael Murphy It's brave men with Paul Lewis Cole Wisdom encourage for the journey Talking with Michael Murphy. Michael Murphy is pastor leader author coach President of a university all sorts of stuff. You got all kinds of things going on. What are you doing your spare time loves full life for and kids And we were just talking about because you you talk with thousands of pastors with your ministry leadership And that you intersect if you will faith marketplace University life All of those things what are the when you because you're all about discipleship sure You just did a course for christian men's network On discipling Yeah, people in a local church. Yeah, what's the biggest mistakes if you will I mean, what's the three biggest mistakes you see pastors Do in terms of discipleship or not and particularly discipling men. Yeah, let's let's skew it that way It's a great question. I think I think first of all they start they try and start big not small They what do you mean? They they Well, they they go for the event Without so the production if you like rather than the process. Yeah And I think I think It's it's no secret that men are craving Community they want to they want to be able to hang that the the aloneness of men and the whole mental health thing is Is now legendary? Yeah, and so I do well proved it really is. I mean, well documented well proved the stats are in You know, and I think that this has been a really challenging time for humanoids But particularly for men And I think that So I I think it would be better for pastors to start with a small group of men that they can turbo charge Them see the transformation in their lives and then build from there rather than the the quarterly men's breakfast Well, we do the we try to you know, we're event oriented. Yeah, we're also numbers oriented Because it has to do with the performance and production and it seems it seems yeah Absolutely, so we do this big thing that we would call in the US a home run. Yeah, you're from Sydney. You'd call it a six-run Is that correct? Yeah, but the fence exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah So no, it's and I think we are we are wide that way and and somehow The the numbers to an event operate as a an ascetic To the real thing or a almost a distraction to the real thing which is raising an army of discipled Encounded transformed men. So seeing a bunch of guys in a room makes it feel better absolutely like on Sunday You know, that's why we gravitate as pastors and I'm not speaking Against pastors. I is one and I love pastors. I've given you pastor to local church for how many years? Well, eight in the year 30s 30s. Yeah, three decades. Yeah, you helped launch with Brian Houston his church down here. He'll song a long time ago now But yes many years ago and then after a dozen or so years there You passed her to all coaches that southern Sydney for 18 years And now you've become a coach over the last decade to leading pastors around the world We so you know this stuff we are delighted, but you've seen it. We get to do it. Yeah, we have we have and I think so that's the first thing I think the second thing is We we we want to start a men's ministry but with our conviction. So this is what I mean Well, we we we got a church. You got a women's ministry got a man's man's man's man's got a kid. Yeah Got a men's ministry. You got to take the boys. Got it. No, we don't think it we're not conscious of that But if you if you if you just want a men's ministry, I would say don't touch it Then versus a deeper binding conviction that part of the reason you're on the planet is to raise a generation Of Christ followers as men who are transformed and I and I've got several examples of this where pastors have done that It's a slow burn pull So so you don't get the yippies of the quick fix but I promise you if you will put in out of a conviction of heart You'll never look back and the third thing would be Don't know what to do. So I'd say curriculum. So if you're looking if you're looking for a iteration any of you there looking to preach this I would say a A conviction. I would say community and a curriculum So if you've got a conviction in your guts as a pastor I can do no other than this And and you're prepared to back that to the hill because it's hard I mean for ladies and I'm not being Genderist here, but if you put on anything with ladies, they'll flock Ladies ladies say easily do they do community easily Men go I mean hack they go the bathroom together. Why yeah? Yeah? Yeah? So yeah, when you asked me the other day Do I said no do it on them? So so If you so so if there's a conviction Building community so just getting authentic getting real getting vulnerable and I think the leader always goes first in that regard and then the third thing You know, sorry just while on that guys don't want to hear about our heroics They want to they want to hear about our stuff ups They want to hear about the things that that took us to the edge or the we were talking before that some of the books You've been reading recently and some of the guys that you've been who've had You know really catastrophic traffic falls in some ways and they now prepared to talk about it Well, one of our friends a good friend Blaine Bartel who has been on the podcast and is also going to be You know a speaker on a regular basis that lines roar Yeah Blaine is so vulnerable and open on this stuff and what it does is it helps others heal. Yeah, but I would say the majority of books I've read for men If the author's talking about personal experiences and most of those he's the hero of that story And now there's one guy in particular who's a great minister Very large ministry And I read his book on men and he used a story to try to establish some sort of Yeah connection. It's a start of every chapter and every story was wow. He was the hero. It's amazing And look there's that's a temptation right? Well, it's just it's a natural thing for us as guys But I think why do I want to tell you about striking out in the baseball game and an eighth? Yeah, yeah When I could tell you about knocking in a couple runs. Yeah sure, right? Yeah, totally But I think that I get it when you understand I saw a read something recently that said if a look if you if a when when you're around a big leader And you walk away going wow, they are so great That's nowhere near as good as if you're around a greater leader that you walk away from and go oh man I'm great. I can do it So when a leader makes you feel better about the pathway ahead and part of that is with the The empathy and the resonating with their wounds And you go man, I if he can do it then I can do it too Why and and and nothing opens up a an authentic relationship Like one member of that relationship being prepared to go first in their own battle scars. Wow So when we talk about when we talk about those things when we talk about Performance and production yep And and we've kind of made the pulpit this this icon of this is what ministry is about And if you reach up if you can perform it's great now in the other hand on the other side of it. What's wrong with that Right you see what I'm saying? What's wrong with production? What's wrong with saying Man, you know our men's ministry to men group 38% last year. Yeah, nothing absolutely like okay In my my background Hillsong was the excellence there wasn't it called Hillsong back in that room right the excellence there is something I will never ever lose and I'll always be challenging as we do Lead pastors all around the world to To continue to do the very best with what they have right excellence is not doing as good as Stephen Ferdy Excellence is doing the very best with what you have regarding Sunday my best my best and and to continue to roll the red carpet out Not just for your churches, but for those that are still seeking to finances in faith But I'll always say that's what I'm saying depends on what you're after if you want a teaching center Just go nuts on preaching That's it if that's all it is and though there are some schools of thought that say just got to preach the gospel And that's it. It's just not biblical Like as a disciple making tool of course. It's part of the suite that we are given of course We're called to preach the gospel of course. It's foolishness to those that don't understand it But but but but we've got to build community well But the church didn't grow because of the preaching and a temple the early church grew because of the fellowship around the table Absolutely because in 70 AD the temple was destroyed. Yeah when Christians and Jews alike ran for their lives Jerusalem was destroyed. It had been chaos. Yep since Jesus had had left of this band of brothers and friends in charge But they had to run for their lives and when they did They didn't have a temple. Yeah, what they had for about 300 years was a table Yeah, they met from house to house powerful So I know there are many meeting house to house and church to church And and you're not slamming on not a guy who builds the no no no big thing We we love our all of the past as we work with and I think everyone should do the very best what they can on a Sunday What I'm saying is We would never see like the devil wouldn't say for dust if we put at least as much attention on our Processes for making disciples as we do on our Sunday performance. Yeah, here's another way to put it Yeah, that's good every church that I've ever been in including the ones that I led were We we practice selective excellence Based upon subjective emphasis. Hmm. So in other words my excellence on a Sunday It's in seasons was like man. I noticed that light out those chairs aren't straight come on Well, can't we clean the rubber spins? Yeah, I noticed stuff right and hopefully you're not the only one pastor who's noticing it If you are then we can totally relate to that But if we shifted the same amount of effort and focus on our On our discipling on our assimilation You know in my mind your welcome team is as important if not more important than your worship team. Wow Yeah Because it's all part of the hall. It's about people at the end of the day. Jesus is not going to say and again This might sound cynical, but it's not intended that way. Please hear my heart in this as you as you're listening to this podcast It when we when we understand that Jesus is not going to say How excellent were your services? Well done good and faithful. Wow He's going to say what did you do with what I gave you? How'd you disciple? How'd you go with the great commission? And that's about people and about moving people along their discipleship journey Yeah, ministry is about come mission is about go. Yeah, and what we have is we have a combination We are called to ask people to come come and see absolutely. That's a bit harder than see. Yeah Yeah, well, thank you. I tried to be a builder call in these podcasts It is Decry that yeah, well, we're not an attraction church. Why not? Yeah, why not? That's so great the disciples said it's almost like there's an inference in that question. Well, you are an attraction Like that's a bad thing. Well, there's you go back to the the Old Testament prophet who said In the prophecy about the Messiah said he was not Comely or with form that would attract us to his physical presence But okay, and so we take that and we go. Oh, okay. So it's like then what happens is in I think five 96 Pope Gregory said That the desire for tasteful things or I'm trying to remember how he put it He said the desire for those things which are a beautiful taste was vile I think he said chrysalis. Yeah, chrysalis. Yeah, anything with anything with butter on it And so he said it was vile and so all of a sudden man They shifted that whole thing and what we did is if we're not careful we move away and say well, you know God will just bring the right people You know God the God will just bring people yet. Here's the thing Jesus it says he was without form. In other words Judas had to go over and kiss the guy in the cheek for those Roman soldiers. You know, which guy was the Messiah? Yeah, he didn't stand out. No, no, no, he's blazing blue eyes did not but It was a long blonde. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and so we call him Swedish Jesus, right? So So but he was attractive So it says that crowds and crowds and crowds of people and kids and yeah absolutely and they would pass the children over the crowds for him to bless them You know, I just want my child, you know, what is that if it's not attraction? Yeah, right? So the attraction wasn't that he had some sort of great charismatic presence as he walked in a room and everybody turned and went Oh, you know what happened was his that the presence of his spirit. Yeah Who he was the fact that people were healed the fact that people came together the fact that people that love walked in the room And you could sense the atmosphere of his presence That's what did it. I think that I totally agree with all of that. I think that when when we put some effort and we'll talk about the flip side in the moment But when we put some effort into a service That is designed to roll the red carpet out to those that are yet to know It's akin to what God did in the incarnation of Jesus. God God busted every cultural cosmic barrier celestial barrier in order for Jesus to leave the solubrius Right hand of the father in heaven and was born in a stinky little feed trough and then he grew up didn't do a miracle for 30 years We know that story, but all of that was about him resonating with who we are In church services. Excellence is as much Audience centric as it is production or technical centric. It's does the service Resonate Emphatically and empathetically with where people live That provides a bridge to the word of God which actually does the work Well, I'll tell you something man if people are coming to our house and we know it not like if if we know ahead You know Michael and Valor yeah are coming to our house and and what does Judy do? Well, she she doesn't just let everything go and you know and everything you leave out stays out She goes around she cleans everything she puts fresh flowers out. Yeah, she makes sure that everything's just right I think when you guys walked in the other night she had I don't know cheeseboard or something or there was a cake. There was a cake there. Yep. Yeah, freshly been a fresh little Some drinks for us and all these different things amazing. You know why because because it's about love Yes, it is about affection And if if we don't love people, you know what Michael? I think that's why sometimes We wonder, well, why don't they show up because we're not feeling the love man That people people go where they feel wanted and I think that's that's the thing if we if if if the focus on people people engagement And movement and I know when I say that it again sounds critical and it's like you we got that we've got some greeders and we we yeah But I'm it's it's the it's the final 10 and 20 percent yeah It's it's the it we've all everyone has greeders everyone's got a car park attendant everyone's got we've all got the theme But it's the finesse of the thing. It's actually It's it's the little texture it really it's because I remember a church we ended up attending and becoming very very involved The members of pastor by a man who became a very dear friend Jim Garlo But I remember the first guy that ever greeted us as we walked in because I think what happened was They just you know, it was like okay. We need this team. We need the pulpit team and it was a church just launching Yeah, we need the people who do the sound we need this and uh, yeah, we need some greeders. Well, who's left? Hey, Bob. Yeah Yeah, and so the guy that greeted us He had all these little Jesus buttons on. He had like stickers. It was he was a fanatic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah He was every church has got he was that guy. Yeah, yeah And I don't know maybe he was holding a you know a flag in the color toe course, you know, yeah, and So he I'm gonna walk it up and the door wasn't open And so as we walk up he opens the door and and here's this guy in a t-shirt and a like bib overalls with all these flair Hey And Judy's like are we is this is this yeah, are we at the right place? Yeah, and that's about it's about thoughtfulness Thinking through the eyes of someone that's hitting the front door for the first time And so if we do the same thing then with with caring for those yeah, I got a conviction It can context discipleship. Yeah, but whenever someone comes into our orbit I got a conviction. They've been sent by God. Wow. Now you can argue that toss theologically But if if if God if if we're if we're on mission that God has already if we get on mission Yeah, God's already on God wants to see people connected to Christ And to his the ecclesia to his church way more than we ever do Yeah, and so he's already working in their lives So when they come to the front door of the church or across the threshold or even into one of our small groups I call them God's guests. They have been sent by God Well, how we handle those guests actually Needs to be fit. Well shows our heart in our spirit. I give you a couple things one is when Jesus When he when he got his first disciples the 12 guys right the 12 disciples He didn't just take whoever showed up. Yep. In fact, they're probably were some that just showed up And like choose me choose me. Yeah, and he chose the disciples. Yeah, he went out and purposefully probably on purpose Chose them. I happen to think Having studied this a lot more now over the years That he might have known a number of these guys already. Oh almost certainly He may have already made furniture for them or helped them build a house or he knew and maybe all of them And over the years, he's like yeah that guy that guy Gosh that guy he meets this guy when he's 14. Mm-hmm. He swatches his life and he goes yeah you you you Chose him. So my point is Choose the people who are at the front door. Mm-hmm. Choose them on purpose. Okay. Here's the second thing Doug Miran great friend Who wrote a number of books particularly in the late 80s and did you do the leadership? Yeah, that's leadership Yeah, Doug Miran and great friend and he said to me about three or four years on the phone A years ago on the phone and we were talking about men And attracting men and having men in your church. He said Paul here's the here's the problem we've had in our churches He said we have built a seeker model Mm-hmm for people who are seeking a connection with God or seeking peace or see he said the problem is most men are not seekers Wow, they're runners. Yeah, mm-hmm particularly this generation. Yeah, they're running from God Yeah, they don't want anything to do with it And so uh, so I think that's a fascinating inversion of that whole model now now tell me about and I'm talking with Michael Murphy president of alpha cruisus founder and lead coach of leadership and But you've been a local pastor businessman football player married kids one wife three kids full grandkids we're grandkids. Yeah, that's amazing. We were talking about These amazing this amazing thing. I'm gonna go something totally different than sure just discipleship a man I want to talk about how God works in our lives in in mysterious ways and you talked about God bringing somebody across your path Uh, one of my in fact, he's he's my professor right now in the doctorate program. I'm doing uh, doctor learned sweet and Lynn If somebody can get to him and suggest a book to read he figures it came from God Says if somebody somehow gets his email or his text You know and says hey or he's with somebody and he'll buy that book and he reads a book a day So uh, so he figures and I feel like that. So let's go to sliding doors. Yeah, okay And let me get some of your background because you didn't grow up a follower of Christ. No, no I had a Roman Catholic background. Yeah, so there was some sort of see and then I was Just to be transparent. We're doing the podcast here. So little hang out when I was 14 years of age Um, I had a an adult male befriended me and Basically sexually abused me Uh, he was not a priest, but he was there it was like a deacon someone connected to the church He was quite in good trust worthy. Yeah, he really was yeah and uh and as a young 14 year old working out your own sexuality I'd rather than tell anyone about it. I decided to prove my heterosexuality right and get involved in as many Uh, which is on fornication. Yeah, really. Aeson's good good word putting it Relationships I could and that lasted pretty much from 15 through to Um, when I got married When I went ahead to Christ. Yeah, and then and then in the midst of that I ended up with a teenage pregnancy at 18 We'd been going out for eight and months this girl and all right and uh and so we I dropped out of university Got three jobs raised a lot of money To try and set up home. We're going to get married that relationship fell badly apart And I never saw the child. I don't say that to to seek um So sympathy is just a reality. I was I was a mess at that time. I blew that money on alcohol and partying for the next couple of months And I was off my face a lot of that time. Wow Roll the roll the tape forward had a near fatal accident should have been killed Had a little scratch in my back in the end, but flipped a car. I was blind drunk Fortunately, I was in her in the car and came to Christ a couple of months later. Wow and that was where my life was radically changed Um, my life bumped into he was preaching at the time Brian Houston and And that that and then I met your dad Um, well, heard your dad speak initially on on wasn't just a few months has come in so soon after Oh And then went to a took myself along to a uh, he heard it was he was speaking I asked a few guys. I said no, I can't make it so I just went myself the university knew so well. I'll never forget it and uh and I went my way through these messages and uh and it really just cemented everything Yeah, amazing and then and then but but going back even further your wife Valerie. Yeah her dad Yeah, these are these are two amazing stories. These is her father and then and then my grandfather Yeah, yeah, so yeah, so with with my wife's dad So we are now we were two broken people came together and now serving God. She's with me on this particular trip Yeah, you know two and a three month trip Helping passes all over the world. Her dad was a rear gunner. He was a machine gunner in at Dunkirk When the 40,000 Fletilla of boats came over from England across the channel and and the British escaped and he held off the Nazis Then what happened he was the last he was the loop that held off and the ones that got captured absolutely So then he was marched by by Churchill The British Prime Minister down the coast of France to St. Valerie I've got one tattoo and it says St. Valerie with a Y My wife's name's Valerie with a Y and St. Valerie is where her dad was captured because Not many people know this Churchill surrendered 10,000 British troops to the Nazis when the Nazis put a pincer movement on them So he was then marched across Europe escaped seven times from P.O. W. Times And I was in World War II during the hot the most part of World War II And I say to people I'm glad he he didn't give up after that sixth Wow, because when he escaped the war finished he went back to England met my wife's mum They got married my wife was born and I've got the most amazing wife in the world On the other sliding doors. Yeah If he hadn't escaped that last six time, I don't know think about us. Yeah, would you have gone back? Would I have had my what would she I don't know no on the other side of my family of my family This is my mum's dad Was a an orphan in Johannesburg. He used to tell stories of picking Cockarotches out of his hope bill in the morning. It was a render situation back in the day Anyway, he he got it got a trade and became a master craftsman a French polisher Don't even exist today on it Furniture and caskets coffins when they used to make them and raised enough money for the for the ship fare From from South Africa to Perth Australia In trying to get to the boat in time He he literally missed the boat not metaphorically like I missed the boat He missed the boat. He didn't he the trip that he had the ticket for he didn't get on that boat tragically went down Somewhere in the I think Indian ocean 300 souls were lost and he could have been on it And he caught the next boat got to Perth made his way to Sydney met my mum's mum My mum was born and I was her first born sliding doors Yeah, when we talk about that there was a movie and it may have come from a book and it's an idea and a thought About somebody that made a subway and then you see their life differently or parallel by not making the subway train Yeah, the doors shut and as the sliding doors are shutting she jumps in And her life becomes one way You see it later the filmmaker did a brilliant job the doors actually shut this time she didn't make it and how different her life is from that one Moment absolutely, it's amazing when we begin to look at life He's a thought yeah in the kingdom of God because we are all On where his sons and daughters. Yeah, those of us. I mean, he loves everyone those of us that has have committed our lives to him There are possibly Hundreds of sliding dollars wow that you don't even and if you were listening to this right now you don't even realize it wow But because he's kept you on the right side of the sliding or the right Centimeter on an inch from the accident that you didn't even know was about to happen wow You are of divine design you have a destiny in God Because you are still on the right side of the sliding doors. Don't regret what might have happened Just continue to walk one foot in front of the other and follow the designer himself Hey, man, man, dude, that's strong, bro Ephesians 210 one of my favorite scriptures says you're he says you're on my masterpiece I created you for good works from before you were ever born That word masterpiece is a word poyema and that word poyema means a master craftsman who has made something without leaving Anything out in other words Crafted to the fullest beautiful nothing left undone. I think it's the actual yeah, yeah, nothing left undone So here's so God looks at you and me and says you are my masterpiece It's just an amazing picture and so often we get down on ourselves and we forget the goodness of God And we forget the grace of God and we forget that this guy You know, I can imagine as you in Valerie, you know negotiated because you both came from oh my some broken price Some stories dude. Yeah, well, and you'd be in trouble. Yeah, yeah We'll have to make sure we don't tell you that's right. Yeah, but the fact is you guys negotiated that both of you strong people There had to have been sometimes were you totally forgot the grace of God that actually brought you together Yeah, you know, though the one grandfather missing the boat and and the other You know the dad yeah seven escapes from persons and one and these things come together in the master design of God Yeah, and how quickly we forget the goodness of God we get so enamored and overwhelmed with the here and now Like that when what say when we heard arguments and we had a lot in the early days Uh, and you know Valerie and she would tell you this if she was on the podcast with us Her background Consequently with her dad coming back with post-war syndrome before it even had Steve before they knew what it was didn't even have a title Shell shock didn't even have a child and so he was quite a violent man In fact, she wrote a book called dancing with my dad Which was which was designed initially in her head to be a book about an abusive father But it ended up being a healing journey for her As she reflected on her dad's brokenness in light of the purity and perfection of her heavenly father And so when we were in no midst of those arguments We weren't thinking about no generational sliding doors We were we were slamming doors right and and I and I think that Again for everyone listening here We we can all be so full of regrets so full of water could have shoot us. Oh my goodness You you wish you'd have been born with we've been ourselves right side of the track. Yeah, listen pastors if you're a pastor You are my hero, and I know Paul feels the same way what you have done In leading those precious people that God has entrusted into your care over this last Incredibly to mulch you as easy You're a flippant genius pastor Yeah, you've taken your leadership out for a spin and Jesus says to you well done Good and faithful shepherd Yeah, and and so here's the great confidence you can have the same leadership gift That not only survived but led your people through the most difficult time many of them have been through That same leadership gift is still on your life and is there to be able to build a kick butt authentic genuine Disciple-making church that sees all your dreams In Christ in reality. Hey man talking with Michael Murphy the uh lead coach and founder of leadership and Also on the board of christmas networking and finding resources you need for the cycling men at cmn dot men don't go to CNN No, no, that'll be a very different message. This is not gonna get you. No, no cmn dot men And uh present of alpha cruisers university and in fact the alpha cruisers university Is the first what we're talking about so we've been this pretty amazing. What's that we're at we've been a higher education institution Initially a little Bible college as many of these things start out right 75 years ago And so I've had the privilege of being on the board for the last 10 we broadened our offering from ministry and and Theology To leadership in business and education Sociology and applied applied sciences. So we've got three major schools. Wow and uh over the last Oh 20 years been carrying in our heart a vision to be the very first Spirit-filled evangelical University and so it's been a long journey Paul. Yeah, and Literally the catholics have got a couple and there's now a couple of others, but spirit-filled Evanget that there has been none in our history of our nation of us during and so only about a little while ago We were awarded university college status, which is such a significant step. I mean we offer from Certificate through to doctorate PhDs in all of those fields and We have a dream to be a full research university that will be able to do some conservative research on on families and and and values that are based upon a biblical conservative foundation That hopefully because no one else is doing research on some of the craziness that's happening right now Because it's it's just against the political grain Uh gender and and And some of the other things that All of that When young children Are being impacted by that. Why call values fluidity. We just don't know what it is. Yeah, I think we do know But but there needs to be the research. We do know Yeah, we I think we know intuitively. Yeah, yeah, but empirically But I would say you're going back to a couple things and and we could talk all day and a number of these issues But because you're well-learned and you coach people But I I feel like those of us who have come through the last few years Which would basically be anybody listening Sure, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Has actually been affected by trauma. Yeah I think we need to give ourselves a little space. I think that's true I think we need to give ourselves a little grace Uh, I believe we need to um If you will And it's not backing off of the desire. Here's my goals. Here's all I want to go It's just that you know If we get upset see we don't junior and I don't have arguments anymore We call them discussions now with matured. Great. It might be this it not quite as loud as they used to be But so we call them discussions, but you know that whole thing the stuff that rises up and us You know, I think we need to give ourselves a little space and we need to like back off of a few things ago You know what? I've gone through a major trauma. Yep And this anger I'm feeling right now isn't because of that person or that situation or my wife Or my kids or that it's really my reaction to the fact that I've come through Trauma And we have to we have to recognize that it's it's the PTSD that yeah that Valorist dad came through didn't nobody knew what it was didn't ought to help him out I mean apart from the trait the freight train of COVID of the soul right coming down the line Which I think will be used in using them like you know like we won't even know the impact of that I think that there one if there's one good thing that's come out of this Is and maybe it was belated but but a fresh Understanding of the importance of well-being of the soul. Yeah, and my hope is that even as pastors and leaders men's ministers That we would be able to be there as a not just a listening ear but really appreciating How important freedom from the inside really is. Yeah, well How to give me a couple things as we close the Brave Men podcast. Thank you My friend for being a part of it today and listening and being with Michael and I is really a blessing I love hearing from you right to me at Paul at cmn.men Give me a couple of things Michael talking with Michael Murphy You coached leading pastors around the world. Yeah, give me a couple of things that you've seen in particularly with discipling men Give me a couple of things that that You know if you said if somebody said man, I just can't do all this stuff and you said hey There's at least a couple things you need to do Right what would be the if you will core value or The irreducible happen you have to you need to do this. What would be those things? I think When we're taking when we're talking community, and I know I probably use the word before yeah The the marker places now talking connectedness right and it's kind of like a a a a community on steroids And so I think one of the things almost every single church we we consult with We have the privilege of coming alongside the lead pastor We work a lot on their first step in connectedness from the moment someone comes into the into the car park Into the into the foyer Really marshalling that well not about getting Rattling the drum and grabbing their details, but building trust really quickly Exceeding their expectations of hospitality. So that'll be the first thing I think the second thing is that not to so much focus on lagging indicators I'd be I'd be good as gold to say stop worrying about your your numbers on a Sunday Stop worrying about your offerings if you attend to the leading health indicators Like guess what's happening there your growth track your groups your teams your leadership pipeline Honestly the Sunday thing will look out for yourself And then the third thing and and I'll draw upon the experience that one of the churches We've had the privilege of working with the probably the last four or five years They were stuck at about three hundred and seventy people which you know for many pastors look listening to say go I mean, I love that but yeah, but you know, it's so it's not a tiny church a good number But he had so much more in his heart and And they got he got very very I mean we worked with him We helped with all of the processes and the templates that we do for disciple making yeah, but then he he got this conviction in his gut about discipling men Mm-hmm He just texted me a couple of days ago. This is about three or so years on and they they crack fifteen hundred So it's almost fivefold in Sunday tense during code it's four it's fourfold In these finances and again, it's not what it's about. It's not about bums on seats and money in the offering But it's a it's a measure of of the fact that this thing has really worked More than that every single Sunday He has a he has someone's wife come up to him Yeah, often with tears and arrives saying what have you done to my husband? Yeah, thank you. Thank you Thank you and and when when that happens and and it happens it's this is happening on mass It's just as a pastor. It's just so powerful. I had we were in Curriciba, Brazil with our team there And Marcos Pol are director and George and Dishamura Who helped found university who is a founder of University of the family and there are partner for christmas network and we have seven thousand Small groups across Brazil now but we were in Curriciba and this couple got up probably early forties really nice looking And so they cut up and a Maria and Joseph and Joseph Maria and Maria gets up first And she says I thank God for this ministry, you know, I thank God for maximized manhood and And for what's happened here in Curriciba in our small group because it changed my husband She said she said you know Every day for at least the last 10 years I would wake up in the morning that every day I would pray dear God, please make me a widow She met the lady and Joseph standing there and he kind of turns like maybe he hadn't heard that before And she said she said I would wake up every day and pray that dear God make me a widow and she said and now he's changed Went to the men's group the maximized manhood and and went through courage and strong minute tough times And he said different man wow, and I thank God for this ministry. So then Joseph gets up and he said I thank God for this ministry He said He said it it made me a different man. It has saved my marriage and apparently it's also saved my life That's also and and I mean everybody died laughing. Yeah true real true Wow, and she had prayed that dear God make me a widow because it was so it was such a hell on earth and her Life turned into heaven and I talked to them separately and had them, you know Well, first of all, I thought the translator had gotten a wrong. I'm like, dude There's no way she said that's such a nice looking woman. Yeah, you know three kids And so I got them separately and I said did you you know I asked her to translate? Did you actually say this? Yes, that's what I said You know, so thanks for being with us on brave men today my absolute pleasure the blessing And I just one final thing just as you were saying that And again, this happens every now and then just feel real prompted That that there's some men Listening to this right now. Yeah, and you've asked the question has my wife ever prayed that prayer wow And you feel she possibly has yeah, and you don't know What you can do about it. I want to encourage you sir That you can be the man that you always dreamed of being and that she always dreamed that you would become As you submit your life to Christ as you find Somewhere that is engaging in this Christian men's network curriculum and that's not it's not an ad you're already on the podcast You're already in somehow in the family. Yeah, come on, but can I just go from being a listener To someone who is humbly Engaged in transformation Hear the words That Dr. Cole Paul Dr. Ed Cole and Dr. Paul Cole have written as words from God and you too Could be that testimony not of a deceased man at a funeral about as someone whose wife stands beside you Thanking God for the transformed man. She now has I just felt to say that I just come on man. They'll prompt about the Holy Spirit That is awesome Romans 122 says change your life by changing the way you think amazing And so we know that by changing the way we think we can change the action of our lives Because what you put in your heart what you end up doing with your hands absolutely and most men live in the trauma of their head Rather than the presence of God in their heart And let's change that let's move on go to cmn.man you can get the resources materials tools You also need to get into a life-giving church A locally where you are Give us a city. Maybe you can write to me at Paul at cmn.man We may know some of the area most likely we do Can direct you to a fine church whether you're in Uganda right now or Malaysia or Waterloo, Iowa So it's been great having you Michael great to have you on the podcast and thank you for being with us today on brave men Remember hope is alive hope has a name hope's name is Jesus You just experience brave men with Paul Lewis Cole Paul is president of the Christian men's network connect with Paul at cmn.man or Write to him at Paul at cmn.man