BraveMen S4E112: Paul Andrew - Becoming Barnabas

Today on Brave Men, you'll meet one of the most intriguing men that I've ever met my entire life, his name is Paul Andrew. Paul and his wife Andy about 12, 13 years ago moved to New York and pioneered a church called Liberty Church, New York, New York. Moving from the beautiful coast of Australia to the wilds of New York, Paul and Andy carved out a fantastic church and from that church of built churches in Africa, London, Florida, other parts of the world. Liberty Church is a great place, but what's just happened, and I grabbed him the day after this announcement, he's moving full time into something he pioneered a year ago called a Barnabas Network. And so, he's leaving Liberty Church, he's now going to be the founding pastor, missions director, those sorts of things, and raised up some incredible young men and women for all their campuses and leads that will do a great job. But the Barnabas Network is, I believe, a brotherhood that we need right now in the body of Christ to help pastors and leaders be healthy. That's really what we're talking about in 2022 at Lion's Road, our conference in the first of November, the theme is passion, but it's really about spiritual health, mental health. How do we keep healthy in the middle of really difficult, chaotic? Can we say the word fluid? And fluid times, it seems like everything is fluid. Now, I'll tell you what's not. I saw a great t-shirt the other day. It said, said normal is not coming back, but Jesus is. That was fantastic. So, Paul Andrew is one of those special rare men who has not just a sense of the spirit of Christ in him, an identity that's very grounded, but he has a large vision of the world and what he wants to do to help people meet Jesus Christ by helping men and women be healthy who are leading others to Christ. It's a great vision. I can't wait for you to hear this whole thing. Remember, brave men, share it with somebody. Go on there and click the little thing that says, I want to join or follow or whatever the thing says. Be a subscriber. I'm so techy on this stuff, but I love doing brave men. I love talking to you and I together and I can't wait for this. I've been waiting for this moment for some time. For you to meet my friend Paul Andrew, who now is the executive director of the Barnabas Network. This is going to be a great day. I'm glad you're with us today on brave men. It's brave men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. Talking with Paul Andrew, the founder of Liberty Church in New York City and executive director of Barnabas Network and some exciting things happening, Paul, in your life with you and your wife Andy. A lot of people know your wife Andy, who's an author and speaker. You've got four children. You guys live in New York where you're transitioning. Before we get into that, let me ask you what's the biggest animal you've ever taken? I took an island. It's an island in Africa. It's the largest antelope in the world and true story. It took six guys just to roll it up onto it, so I had to take a photo of it. That's fantastic. We need to put some of these photos in the show notes. Yeah, totally. That's fantastic. And then what's your favorite? You're a hunter which is come late in life. Yeah. You're originally out of Australia, which they don't believe in guns. No, it's a crazy story to have an Australian who everybody would think is, you know, going to have guns and knives and whatever else. And when I move to New York City and get into hunting, that's a crazy story. Yeah, what's your favorite animal? What was your favorite hunt? Let me put it that way. Probably one of my African hunts too. I got done what's called a King's Wildebeest. And that was a really cool experience. But honestly, I just love any kind of hunting. Truth is, 11,000 feet in Utah after mule deer or, I don't know, you name it. I just I enjoy being out there and there's something about it that's good for my soul. Yeah, it is good for the soul. And part of it is not just the hunting, it's camaraderie. That's right. I love it for hanging out. I love it for going to breakfast after you freezing cold or really in the morning. You know, I love putting food on the table. Unless something satisfying about, about eating venison that you went out there and obviously yourself. And for me, as a dad to it, like my boys getting into it, two of my three sons are have taken an interest as well. And so the the chance to bring them and experience that with them is something else. Well, I think it's healthy for those listening. You do have a social media stream called Paul Andrew Hunting. Is that what it's called? I do. Yeah. Paul Andrew Hunting. I separated it out from my ministry one. And I just had to call these people hating on you. Yeah. Well, they still do come hate on me. That's all right. But they have to go find you. We know where you're at. Yeah. And it's great. It's fantastic. So but you've spent the last 12 years building a incredible church community in one of the most difficult places in the world. You know, speaking of hunting difficulty in New York City. What caused you and your wife handy with three small children? You have one born after you got to New York. What was this? What was this about moving from a very secure situation in Australia? Yeah. Well, it was, I mean, honestly, it could sound cliche, but it really was just oh, God, this was not our idea. It started with a literal prophetic dream that we couldn't shake for 40 years. He put New York City on our hearts. Really? And to plan a church, we'd never plan it a church. We didn't even really know anyone here. And we ended up coming and spying out the land in 2009. And it's clear as anything. It's a longer story. But we both heard from God Andy did in the 9-11 Memorial in St. Paul's Chapel. And I did the next day on the Statue of Liberty. He literally said, what would you give for a city? Wow. And I just wept and answered the call without really a plan. Yeah. And first of all, we just have celebrated 11 years since we launched the church, almost 12 years since we moved. And by the grace of God, we've not only got church communities around New York, but we got one in St. Pete, Florida, one in London, in the UK, and then one of the reasons why I get to Africa so often is because we got one in Manzini in Southern Africa. Which is where? It's a little kingdom. You used to be called Swazilandas. S. What's in it? The mountains between Mozambique and South Africa. Beautiful, incredible people. Yeah. And they needed somebody to come help like you guys can. Yeah. Fantastic. And so you're at the top of the base of the Statue of Liberty. Yes. And hits. What is it? What is it? What is being made out of? The old station like that. Right. I mean, well, I think the Holy Spirit really flipped the script on me because I was worried as a husband, as a dad. And yeah, I'm not necessarily proud of this, but I'm like, how would I provide for my family? I was very much caught up in how and really, and it became a why conversation. No. And when I felt the father say that to me, what would you give for a city? I realized, you know, it's really not about guarantees and it's really not about how it's about his heart for this city. And it's a sacrifice, you know, and then if I will trust him and step out in faith, you know, he did say right after I started to just weep and say, I'll give everything. I'll give everything, you know, then he said, the generations will call you blessed. And I think we're experiencing some of that even now as we're transitioning out of that kind of lead posture role into more of a founders role now and answering kind of the call to our next assignment. I look back and I see there is that generational blessing. And frankly, in many ways, I'm seeing how the church that we were faithful to pioneer into plan is now already stepping into things beyond us, you know, and and I think that's the way it's meant to be. I do. Yeah, it's because you raised up disciples. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, that's really the key, isn't it, Paul? I believe it is. And I think to be an empowering leader and we used to say it a lot in the early days, we were if we did, you know, we've made plenty of mistakes along the way. So, you know, let's be honest, but one of the things I think we did right and I think was from God was we said very early on, this is not the Paul and Andy show. And so we've always raised up teachers and preachers every one of those communities has local full-time pastors who do most of the preaching and teaching and I think we were able to build the church in such a way as it wasn't just around Andy and I and our presence and our preaching not to minimize our importance or the role that we played, but I'm very grateful to have been able to build maybe build differently. In other words, if you weren't there on a Sunday, it was still church. 100%. And honestly, that was always the case for our communities that we can only ever be present to one of them at a time, you know. And I think that's been a beautiful release for us to be able to answer a broader calling at times to to the church and not just to our church. And now you've made a big decision and you've you've launched the Barnabas Network. That's right. Tell me about that and how do you make okay, these are two major life decisions you and your wife made together. Yeah. How do you do that together? And tell me about Barnabas Network. Well, in terms of how we make decisions like that, I think the word that you used is really important. We make decisions like that together. It's been a process of discerning this over a period of years and honestly, in some ways, you know, I began really last summer in 2021 to share with first some of my overseers and then some of my close friends and then eventually with the board and David and his wife, Kerry, who've taken the church over from us now to discern. And you know, there's wisdom in the multitude of counsel, right? So a lot of time to think, instead, we isolate ourselves, we get in our own hands or we sort of like gunslingers, make a decision like that and you know, I had to think there's wisdom in the journey and we journeyed it as a family and you know, I spent a lot of time praying and talking and joining it with our kids, you know, when we moved to New York, you've got three teenagers now. That's right. How do you include them in a process? Well, we just we just did and honestly, it's been an emotional roller coaster at times, but it's also been, you know, they're, you know, 16, 14, 13 and 9. And Sam, our youngest was born and raised, literally born and raised in Brooklyn and Zeke, even our eldest, he was four when we moved from Australia. This is the city he knows, you know, he's a junior in high school. This is a big decision for them too. And so, I mean, to me, the, the, the simple answer is that we've included them on the journey. I mean, it's a tension to manage, of course, as a father, because at the end of the day, you know, I, my first and foremost responsibility is to be faithful to the call of God, but that doesn't mean, you know, it's like kind of leave no man behind. What can I do to include them on that journey to honor them to give them space to process, to ask questions, you know, to kind of walk that out and not just to make it about us. And, you know, we honored them. We now final service as lead pastors, at least, I mean, it's the end of the chapter, not the end of our book. We're still a part of Liberty, but we brought them up on the stage and we honored them in front of the church as the MVPs of this story. You've said, yes, along with us to the call to the next season. Yeah, I, you know, there's a couple of things that hit me, and then I want to get into the, because what you've done is you've moved from being lead pastors of the of the founder to you to founded there in Brooklyn, New York City. And you're transitioning to full time with the Barnabas network, which is about sole care and health for leaders, just so needed with all seen the results of, of not doing that. But what strikes me is for so many of us as men were so risk averse. And we only ask how, how could this happen? You know, it's, it's how could this be? And we have to, you know, that's Mary. I think of how could this be when the angel says she's pregnant. And finally, she says, you know, be it to me, according to your will. And moving from that, most of us as men are so risk averse, there's a, there's an old phrase which says, most men die at 50. We just don't bury him till they're 75. Wow. Because we quit. Stop. And if you will in our culture today, you know, mature till you're 30 and you stop doing whatever you're going to do, 45. So how do you, how do you get a cross? How do you get across that, Paul? How do you push through that? You know, spiritually mentally push through that? I think a part of it, part of it is, you know, really truly knowing and trusting in the goodness of God. I think that's a big part of it. Like really putting your weight on because it's one, you know, it's, it's easy as a man to talk a big game when it comes to faith. But this is where the rubber meets the road. I don't take any faith at all. If I've got the 50 page plan and a million bucks in, you know, funding raised for the thing. And now I'm stepping out in faith like really, you know, but it's at moments like this. But we have the benefit now, you know, I've been following Jesus more than 30 years looking back, you know, even the decision to move from Sydney, you know, to New York City, was one of those markers for us. And actually, we've used it as a conversation point with our kids because they were too young, you know, to really appreciate what, how big of a step of faith that was. But now we're using that as a coaching moment. It's like, hey, kids, you know, everything that we are grieving, because make no mistake. When we were excited about the new season, excited about Barnabas, all the Andes called to do the new season. But you know, it's bittersweet. But then, saying to them, hey, all the things we're grieving right now, that we're leaving behind or that we're stepping out from the things that the goodness of God added to us because we trusted him the last time. We said, yes, you know, when we stepped out in faith, you know, the people, everything that works, this beautiful community that we're stepping out from, you know, in this current capacity, all of that was the result of saying yes before. So, so the thing is, I said to the kids, I said it this way, it's like, you know, when you, when you say yes to the call of God, you're always more aware of what you're leaving behind, what you're giving up, so to speak, than what you're gaining. And that's the journey of faith. Talking with Paul Andrew, founding pastor Liberty Church in New York, and now founder of the Barnabas Network. And tell me about the Barnabas Network, Paul. Yeah, what was the instigation of that and what, how you well, there were two things that kind of led to this. The first was something in scripture that rocked me a few years ago and I preached a message in out church and look, you know, you're a leader, you're a preacher, you know what it's like when you get one of these messages and you preach it and you try to lay it down and every time you get a chance, because you beat that to death in your own church, but every time you get a chance somewhere else, you want to preach it again, it was this whole idea of being a Barnabas. And it started, so Acts 4 says that there was a Levite called Joseph, you know, and he was from Cyprus and he sold the field, brought it and laid at the Apostle's feet and they called him Barnabas. And the Bible says it adds in parentheses which means son of encouragement. And let me down this little path of like, because, you know, every Hebrew name has this beautiful rich meaning and the Bible doesn't stop to unpack them or why do we need to know that this guy was such an encourager that the Apostles gave him a new name. Well, then you fast forward, Acts 9, Saul's going to, you know, persecute them in Damascus, he's converted, but they try to kill him. So they sent him down to Jerusalem thinking it'll go well at headquarters, but they try to kill him there too. And it actually says that they didn't believe he was really a disciple. And then there's these two words I circled in by a Bible because I just noticed him in Acts 4, now in Acts 9, I circled these two words, but Barnabas says, but Barnabas took him, brought him before the Apostles, testified on his behalf of his conversion and the rest is history. So, you know, it got me thinking as like, what happens to Saul if there's no Barnabas? Right. Does he ever become the Apostle Paul and write much of the New Testament, plant all those churches? And later he does it again because he's got a young cousin called John Mark, you know, who apparently quits on the first mission's trip. And Paul, he said, fine, you take him, I'll take Silas, and then the end goes, I'll take him again. In the end though, right, Paul's writing to him in second Timothy saying, send him to me, he's useful in my ministry, and most scholars believe it's the same Mark that writes the Gospel of Mark. So here's my thing, I got rocked by this idea of how powerful it is to be a Barnabas. I believe every man, every leader needs a Barnabas in their lives, someone who encouraged the call of God, someone to create room for second chances, to come back stories, everybody needs a Barnabas. And I think most of us could probably look in our lives and see times when somebody's been that to us. So where did Barnabas network start? It sort of started there with this revelation of like a Barnabas calling. And then the other thing is, I was invited on this retreat, you know, in Montana, I'd never been to Montana, I mean, invited out to this place called refuge, and it's fishing and shooting, and I was invited by Greg Sarat, posture as Seaco's church, where we'll be planted when we move to Charleston, and he started the arc, which we're a part of as a church, you know, the association related churches, and he had fittingly the same guy, years later, advised me on this trip that rocks my world, turns out to be soul care, which I didn't realize, but it's fishing and all of these things. And I got to the end of this retreat, and I had a couple of massive revelations, one of them was like, because I spend this whole time laughing, and doing things I was terrible at, which is perfect for me, because I'm like an neagram three, who likes to do everything well, and I needed to do some things I totally suck that, and just have a blast doing it. And like, and I got to the end of this retreat, and I realized I was like, I don't have enough fun. Number one, my whole life is like serious and kingdom and purpose it. Look, I love my marriage. I love my kids. I love my church. It wasn't about any of that. It was just, I just wasn't doing very many things where it was just for enjoyment, for pleasure to get out in creation, get out of my environment. And I also had this realization as I just, I need to have more friends and more spaces where there's nothing to prove and nothing to hide. And it just began this journey for me of the importance of creating real community around leaders. So that's where the whole Barnabas things come from. You know, it's, it's this idea of being an encouragement, but it's also, you know, I believe we need to create community for leaders. I mean, and and everybody needs people in their life that want something for them, not from them. And I've, I've experienced that. Most leaders don't build friendships. They, they, everything's transactional. Right? It's like a media guy and you go, okay, this guy'd be great. I'll slot him here. Okay, this guy'd be awesome here. And we hang out. But at the end of the day, it's not the guy you can talk to. I, I think often, and I talk a lot about Jesus and Lazarus. Because I believe Lazarus was actually Jesus' best and closest friend, regardless of what John wrote. Because Jesus, you had to have somebody in his humanity. He needed a place to decompress. And so that's why he didn't make Lazarus an apostle. Because he didn't want to have to be on when they were hanging out. And also, I think this might take, and maybe this is my little learned sweet twistedness. I think that he and Lazarus were best friends also because Lazarus had a sister who could cook. And the other sister was dangerous. Like the other sister, like Mary connected him to the earthiness, right? Of, of life. And, and Martha just made this up amazing food. And I can just see he and Lazarus hanging out, just hanging out, just spending time together, you know? And for him to say, you know, if, if, you know, if, if John's mom shows up one more time, right? They're both out, right? It's like or you should have seen it, man. Peter got out of boat. It was awesome. Dude, what did you do? He walked for a little bit. It was, it was then, you know, I mean, he needs some and then I dragged him a little bit. Dude, you're ruined. Yeah, it was cool. But everybody's yelling. It was fantastic. And, and then I pretended I was sleeping, you know, this one. You know, I mean, he needs to, right? You need to have somebody you can decompress with and most, right? And, and you know what? I mean, don't have that. And so we decompress into bodies and addictions and we decompress in the things that actually take us down wrong paths. Well, that's right. You know, and I mean, look, you mentioned, you mentioned hunting earlier. For me, that's been one of the important spaces for me just to get out of my normally environment and, um, and decompress. You know, I, I need spaces and places where I don't have to be on. I don't have to be performing. It's not about results right now. And, and I think honestly, one of the things that I've noticed because I've gotten about these last few years inviting more and more guys on retreats and now starting to host them. We're going to host a whole bunch of them this year through Barnabas Network. And not just hunting you. That's not everybody's guys thing I get that, but fishing trips. I mean, we've got guys wanting to do golf tournaments. You name it. Like, whatever it is, that's like truly refreshing for the soul. But, you know, I just, I've realized this man, there's just so many guys don't have anyone or any space where they can just be real about how they're actually doing. Like, I asked the second question, not like, how you doing? Yeah, yeah, good. How about you? But the second, how you're really doing, you know, there's so much. So much posturing, so much competition, you know, and I, I need people in my life where, where I, where I can be real about how I'm going so that I can finish. That's my passion. Honestly, my passion is I just want to see more guys actually finish the race that God has called them to. That's what I want to see. Jay Robert Clinton wrote a great book called The Making of a Leader Back in 1998. I think it first came out. They've revised it a couple times. He just retired out of teaching. Maybe he was a teacher and he had a class project and you said, I want to study. I think it was 300 leaders. They had 150 out of the Bible, 150 out of contemporary last couple of hundred years culture. Christian leadership. I want to study them. How many finished strong, how many, just leveled off, and how many basically lost it, how many dissipated, and different things, and basically what they found out is only 30% of all leaders finished strong, only 30%. It was a stunning thing and their stats have held for 20 years. So when you think about that, and then he actually had an articulation of why that is, a lot of it is we become professional. We're good at it. We've read the Bible 10 times. I'm good. So rather than continued personal revelation, I'm not talking about adding to the word, but personal revelation of Christ. I mean, I saw something last week from a friend of mine. He shared something with me about Adam and Eve of all things. And Adam's love for Eve that just rocked my world. It's changed a lot of things for me. And you know, in not my faith, but you know, the articulation of my faith, the ability to look at something and go, dude, that's what I'm holding on to now. And stronger and lifelong learners and all that sort of thing. And most men, we don't we don't do that. We get. So that's what Jay Robert Clinton found in these studies. And so the Barnabas network. And so what we did, if you will, Paul, is we did this thing. And I wrote about it in a book about Nehemiah called Just a Bar Tender. It's a book and identity. And one of the chapters was on focus. Focus isn't about greater intensity. It's about greater intentionality. Right. Focus. In fact, vision is derived through the process of cutting away things that don't belong. And what happens is we add so much stuff to our lives and so many things and so many places we have to achieve that we burn ourselves. And and leaders need that place of, hey, it's just okay to be okay. And it's actually okay to be human. Yeah. Like actually really human. So a Barnabas network will do that going forward. You'll have advances retreats when we got a gathering. Right. Around different things, but all of it based on soul care. That's right. Yeah. What does that look like? What does soul care look like? Well, I think it's different for different people, right? I think it's different even in different seasons, even me as an individual in different seasons, what I've what I've needed to unwind, unplugged, get perspective back to refresh my soul to to sharpen the axe. You know, I mean, however you want to say it, I think, you know, it's going to be different for different guys and in different seasons. But I think part of it is about relationship. I think, you know, it's part of the vision of this whole thing is to pour back into the people who spend their lives pouring into everybody else, right? Because oftentimes leaders are the ones who are giving. So you know, matter, I mean, you know, I've been a pasta 12 years, but whether you're a kingdom minded business guy, you're a lead an NGO, you're a chaplain or a first responder. I mean, it's they're all similar spaces, right? In that you're you're thinking about others caring for others, even as a dad, as a husband, so much of your focus can be on others. But, you know, it's the old it's the old analogy, you know, when you're on the plane and they say, fit your own mask before attending to others, that's what oftentimes we sort of fail to do is to work out. Wait, am I good? You know, you end up with that caretaker syndrome where you you pour it all out, but you got you got nothing less left. You're running on fumes and then and we see it all too often. You hit some bump in the road, some little curveball and everything just comes apart. Like you, you know, you didn't have the resilience left to walk out a challenge or a different season or walk through a temptation that if you're on a different footing, you would have taken it and you're stride and that's the thing is, you know, because people sometimes when I'm inviting people on retreats or because it'll take you'll take like there's cost, right? Time, money, whatever, opportunity cost. You know, like I mean, you know, and there's a need to be doing that, but you know, I've said it a lot of times now to guys is like, hey, the cost of not caring for leaders is so much greater than the cost of caring for them. And I think, you know, that's that's the tragedy for me is, you know, oftentimes it's you know, by the time we're we're jumping in and it's triage and you know, there's carnage and and I'm not saying that with any judgment, my goodness, have I made mistakes or by, you know, burned out blown up and I think it's partly out of those pain points and those own life experiences realizing my own frailty and humanity that I want to make sure guys, you know, I got no savior complex here because it's a two way street you're only as accountable or relational as you choose to be right about it. We want to provide at least the opportunity for every guy to have people in their world. Well, it's a business axiom too. It's in business are men who are in full-time business. So they'll tell you that it's it's less expensive to keep a client than to go out and get a new one. Right. And so for us to take care of those who take care of others is so deeply important because we do have a tendency to pour out and and if you get a text at 11 o'clock on the night or midnight, I remember one time I had this a brother calling me about he wouldn't call me to I want about one o'clock in the morning. And finally, one night ago, dude, hang on, what are you listening to something? Listen, right now he's quiet. I go, do you hear that? He goes, yeah, what what? I go, you're breathing as long as you're breathing. This is good. So call me at eight. He's still breathing in the morning. Keep breathing. Just call me at eight. Well, I think I think that's been especially true these last few years. I think regardless of, you know what, nation or industry people are listening from the world's been through a crisis. So look, I think there I think so care mental health caring for yourself as a leader in any fashion, leading in your home or your industry, whatever, you know, that's always a priority. But I think I think that it's been like a low tide moment these last few years where a lot of things that have been under the service may be covered up by a measure of success or busyness or whatever have come up in many of our hearts where it's like, man, how am I really doing? What's the condition of my soul? Where's my faith? Where's my journey? What am I believing for? Am I living for what matters? And and I've seen really kind of a in some ways a bit of a crisis of the soul in a lot of men these last few years faced with all the adversity, not only of the pandemic, but you know, in the U.S. at least I know many of my friends with elections and, you know, needed but difficult conversations around racial reconciliation and other stuff. It's like, you know, from for many guys running on fumes, it's like, you know, you know, been been an emergency of this. There is a lot of important conversations, but they we've tended to stack all this and it becomes a stack that that pretty soon we can't lift. How do you how do you take your sons? You've got three boys. How do you take them through into biblical masculinity? You know, in a chaotic and if you will fluid world, how do you help how are you grounding your sons? Yeah. Well, I think there's lots of answers to that. I think one of the most important things that you can do is not what you say but what you do. So, you know, hopefully part of what I'm modeling for them is imperfect but healthy expression of that masculinity in the way that I love Andy as my wife and their mother to see that model in the home. See the way we talked about faith and pursuing God that they're still seeing that that as a man I'm taking risks and following Jesus. I think watching me worship and not just, you know, because sometimes in, you know, in what I've been doing the last 12 years, you know, you put a lot of stock in how a person preaches but, you know, how do they follow Jesus in the home off the stage? I mean, that's got to be as looked like on Tuesday, right? If you're not more important, you know, and then of course, there's the intentional stuff as well. Use the word intentional before and I think that's a lot of what really matters is not just what we do in big moments and we've had the big moments either, you know, coming of age moments or maybe kind of crisis moments or whatever, but also just the intentionality of, you know, walking with them in their own discovery. I mean, I've got three sons and they're three totally different kids. And if parenting has taught me one thing, it's that you never really figure it out. You don't get like you don't figure out your formula with the first one and then apply it not successfully, at least not in my experience. It's a very humbling, very much, you know, you talked before about staying a learner. I think that's true. And then each one of them hits new seasons, hits new challenges, new developmental stages, and I'm learning again. But I mean, to me, in my relationship with each of them and I think this is true for our whole family, you know, there's nothing more important than my connection with them. If we've got that, then we can walk out anything. If I lose that, it doesn't matter how right I am, or how many little great anecdotes I've got or wise words, snippets, you know, or how good my preaching or whatever, you know, that's all that's all nothing. It's a relationship, right? Yeah. And yeah, for me as a dad, it's the tactile is so easily overlooked by us as men. You know, like that was a perfect thing. We have our little phrase. We have a little thing. We get this moment, but man, just hugging my guys, he would kiss on the cheek. I also do that in their 40, you know, it's like, it's just what it is because, um, started that when they were younger. I think it's one of the most important things that a father can do for his children. In fact, it's medically, scientifically proven that a father who takes his children, starting when they're babies and holds them close, they find their center in a way that most children don't find. Right. So most men are looking for that center they never had. Right. It's that moral center. So you provide that in the way you live, the way you hold them, where you talk to them, where you treat them, the way you show up at stuff, the way, uh, though, you push through the inconvenient because parenting is never convenient. Right. I remember one time, uh, my daughter, uh, Lindsey would have been, uh, so I think probably about 12, 13, 14 right in there. I remember coming home and our business as, uh, as I moved into the ministry later in later life, uh, same thing. I traveled, traveled a lot or business traveled a lot. So I came home and I would come home and just take care of stuff, right? And so I grabbed her, I said, let's go grab a coat and uh, jumped in the car and she goes, she looks at me. She says, what's the agenda? Hmm. Paul, dude, I, I lost it, man. Yeah. I got tears in my eyes and I just, Lindsey, I'm sorry. And I did have an agenda, right? We got to take care of this. We got to deal with that. You got to print it, you know, and I was like, you know what? You're right. I want to spend time with you. I love you for you. And, uh, we'll talk about some stuff later, but let's just go hang out. Where do you want to go? You know, and uh, I never forgot that. It just rocked me. It's like, what's the, you get to, that's my little girls, my oldest in my first born. Yeah. And she, you know, she hugged me. She loves me. But what's the agenda? We get in the car. Like, oh, man. And, and if we're not careful, we, we move everything to law. We still easily move to agenda and law and schedules. And, you know, and I think it's, I mean, she and I, we would take a calendar and we would mark and it was on the wall of her room, her bedroom. We would mark when we were going to have dates, you know, starting with she was about five years old. Uh, because the, the thing my dad taught me is, uh, when they teach bank tellers about how to spot counterfeit money. They don't show them counterfeit money. They show them authentic and real money. And then it's easy to spot the counterfeit. Yeah. How do you walk, how do you walk a son? We're God or how do you walk a son through a life's difficulties as we get into the teenage years relational stuff happens, you know, disappointments. How do you walk them through that as a dad? Well, I think our conversation is a really big thing. I remember, um, years ago, uh, Chris Valatin from Bethel taught me a parenting principle. He said, you know, he talked about the law of first mention. You don't want to be the last person on the scene telling your kids about certain things because whoever tells them about a subject first ends up becoming the, the information against which they will assess all future information. So if the school yard or the teacher or Google got their first, um, you know, so it's so part of it has been like, let's let's talk about things. We really intentionally as a family, even around the dinner table, we'll have conversations, you know, uh, you know, and so instead of just, you know, wondering or hoping, like we want to go there and have conversations with our kids about the hard subjects, you know, about how they're really doing about what they're wrestling with, what they're, what they're struggling with. We're doing it right now when it comes to a big life transition in all the feelings that come with that. Um, I think, I think conversation and connection are so important. And they're not one and done, you know, you know, speaking to that checklist thing and I can so easily be guilty about myself is like, you know, this is not like check. We had the, we had the sex talk check. We had the whatever identity talk. Check. We know this is like, this is going to, this is going to be a process. It was, I know it was for me. And so I think slowing down, like what you were talking about before, you know, it's slowing down. I've got a discipleship circle. You know, there's four of us and we talk every couple weeks. They asked me last week, you know, the question was, what is God stretching you and challenging you in right now? And I said, um, being present because we're, we're transitioning a church. I'm launching Barnabas network as a new ministry. We're moving states and there's just a lot of stuff to do. Uh, and if I'm not careful, all of that stuff and not the people that it's all about becomes the focus, frankly, becomes the distraction if we really want to get to it. So I'm excited about the Barnabas network and fired up about it. I'm talking with Paul Andrew. Paul and Andy. Your wife is an author. She, uh, the latest one is, uh, friendship. It's complicated. Yep. First one was, uh, she is free. Is that right? Right. Yep. And then there was a second book. Yep. Fake or follower? Fifth or follower. And that was about being fake or real. That's right. We're really authentically disciples of Christ, which is an important question in a kind of a very consumeristic age. So she's a brilliant writer and speaker and she's doing that. How do we, uh, how do we get a whole of you into Barnabas network? Yeah. So, um, so the website is launched now just last week, stage one of the websites launch. So it's Barnabas network.co. And it's the same on Instagram, Barnabas network.co is the easiest way to get a, get a hold of us. And, um, honestly, I'm, I'm, I'm so excited to serve, uh, leaders to serve men and, uh, and I bet a lot of people listening either themselves or somebody in their world could use something like this. Absolutely. And, uh, for most of us as men, if we have a pastor that, that we're at, we're like, man, I want that pastor to finish strong. Yeah. So this is something to tell you. If you're a business man or, uh, in leadership and a church, but you've got a pastor there, lead pastor, this would be something to tell him about Barnabas network.co. Barnabas network.co. And I'll fire it up about it. Paul, uh, it's a great move, big move. And, uh, it's, it's going to, I believe going to really fill a, a need. Yeah. Was your, now your parenting, was that modeled for you with your dad? Well, yes. And, yeah, I mean, yes. I mean, there's a lot that I've learned from my dad. What's interesting about my story and it's a long story is that I was the first one saved in my immediate family. So a lot of my life was, um, you know, grew up in a, in a home where my dad modeled a work ethic and a deep love for my mom and my brother and I, but also we didn't have Jesus at the center, you know, and so, you know, I've been able to discover a lot and he and my mom and my brother, like, later, you know, came to Christ as well. So it's been kind of a beautiful story. But in, in some ways, all of us, you know, because we started with kind of a clean slate in terms of faith at the center about home had an opportunity to unlearn, to re-learn, you know, and to build together my, my parents generation, my generation, and then our kids in a new and a better way. Yeah. That's fantastic. You know, Paul, uh, thanks for taking time with us on, uh, Brave Men, uh, podcast and, uh, excited about what the Lord is doing with Barnabas Network. And if you want to get a hold of us, uh, at Brave Men, you can go to cmn.men or you can write to me at Paul at cmn.men. We also have on YouTube, if you type in Monday night men, three words Monday night men, you'll see the teaching we do every Monday night, live and then, uh, majoring in men.com, which is a teaching tool. Twelve part series, it's free, uh, about the cycling men in, in, uh, matrix of local church majoring in men.com. Uh, Paul Andrew, thanks for being with us on Brave Men, bro. Love you, man. Yeah. Uh, I'm so grateful for you. I just want to, just want to say, I want to honor you as someone that has actually commissioned what I'm stepping into now. You've been a bond of us to meet all these years, you and Judy, in the years pastoring and planting and grinding it out in New York City, you know, the amount of times you would visit or just drop a text or whatever you just want to honor you, uh, and say thank you because actually you've done for me what I'm now hoping to do for others. You just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.