BraveMen S3E91: Dr. Ruby Payne - Fighting Poverty - Setting Men Free

The Brave Men podcast is not just about meeting Brave Men, but becoming a Brave Man, becoming a man of courage and understanding and knowledge. And today, you're about to meet somebody who's just absolutely going to crack open your brain and pour knowledge in there. Not only that, Ruby Payne is going to stretch us and large us, but man, just absolutely turn on a light into understanding poverty. And we're going to look at it. It came out of the book that Chris, you read with us today again as our producer, Chris Shields, and Chris, you read the book, a framework for understanding poverty. Some time ago, and you said, man, we've got to get this doctor on because it sheds light on how men live, how we act, what happens to us when we're not working, what happens in under privileged cultures. Yes, under performing men, I mean, this thing is, this is one of the ones where you've got to get a pen and write stuff down. Definitely, right? Yes, because you're going to be challenged and you're going to learn why you as a man, you're important. And why work is important? Yes, because you learn your identity when you are doing something. Yeah. We were never called to sit at home and play video games all day. Really? Really? But that's going to be a revelation to my grandson, Cameron's, who's 11, and now here's the deal though, and it's just the thing. He's 11, so that's his, you know, the thing, the last playing video games, and he plays football and stuff and other things. But that's called being a child. Yes. And and first Corinthians 13 says, but when I became a man, yes, I put away childish things, so good. Yeah, but you can still play video games. Yes, you can, but you don't make that as a priority. Yes, not the center of your life. Exactly. But we have some men, believe it or not. Now, here's a deal, and it's called immaturity, and it's that everybody else is the problem. Everybody else is the situation. I didn't create this. Man, everything's against me. I can't get a good job. Yeah. And the backing off of men, which is an immaturity, has created huge issues in our culture today. All over the world, and Ruby Payne absolutely just pierces into this thing. And for, you know, for me, what it did, Chris, talking to her is it gave me tools that I felt like I was better equipped to do what I do in the Ministry of Christian men's network in my own personal life. In the church, I attend at C-34 worth. Yes. And it just equipped me to be a better neighbor, a better man, to help other men. This thing on poverty, and I knew it going in, or as I knew the issue, I knew that it emasculated men. Yeah, right? Yeah. But I didn't realize all the stats that she had. Yes, it's remarkable. And I think the greatest thing we can learn from Miss Ruby is the fact that challenge is okay. But our response to the challenge is where it determines what kind of person we are. You know, because it's like, challenge is not always built out of, oh, I'm going to compete to be better than you. No, I'm going to come alongside of you so that there's areas that you can see in me that needs to grow. And I see areas in you that needs to grow. And I think that that's one of the greatest things that she highlights. Okay, this is where we're at, but this is where we can get to. Hey, for discipling men, Christian men's network, C-M-N dot men, C-M-N dot men. Discipleship is another word for mentoring, growing, building men, building men who are masculine, who have a sense of who they are. Those are the tools we have at C-M-N dot men. You've gone through this yourself, Christian. You with your dad. Yes. As long as I'd each other, challenging each other, but not in a competitive way, but in a growing way. And it's just amazing each other long. Yes. And making sure, like, being accountable to each other, hey, did you finish reading that? Hey, did you finish your workbook? Hey, did you do this? Yeah, but what did it do in your everyday life? That's the thing. I mean, you can have knowledge, but I've met a lot of educated fools. Oh, wow. Say that again. I've met a lot of educated people. Well, you know, just a testimony of the greatness of just what Christian men's network has meant to my family. My parents were able to buy their first house because this challenging that me and my dad walk through. Wow. We enlarged each other. We allowed, and we've seen dreams that we thought we would have to wait more years to get to, but exactly we enlarged our heart. Yes. And this is not something that happened yesterday. It's something that happened now when we begin to go through this curriculum and this material. So it's not just something that you're just reading a book, and it's just, oh, in one year and out the other. No, this is something that becomes tangible. This is a real deal for the whole family. Exactly. And we can all give testimony of the greatness of the change. Wow. That's awesome, man. I love that. Our dog even acts different. Well, now it's discipline. It's discipline a little bit better. Hey, Ruby Payne, I think I told you after our conversation, and we had just started doing the podcast and views and so forth. And I said, I just met the smartest woman in the world. She's remarkable. Yes. And listening to it again, now I've listened to it a couple times. And I'll probably listen to it again and get her book. And we talk about it. We'll talk about it in a close. But I'm thrilled today to introduce you to Ruby Payne. She has written a number of books on poverty. She's one of the world's leading experts on taking the abstract concepts and putting them into concrete strategies of how we actually attack the issues of poverty. What it does to us, how we attack it, and as a follower of Christ, my heart, and what God does for us and tells us is to take care of those who are in the margins. Jesus always showed up for people in the margins, and he still does today. Amen. Thrilled to have today on Brave Men, Ruby Payne, you're going to love this edition of Brave Men. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. I'm with Ruby Payne right now. Ruby Payne is an educator author. I would say, Dr. Payne, you are an activist to remove people from negative life into a positive life, from poverty to wholeness. I use the opposite of poverty as wholeness because it's not just about the money. It's about a sense of worth. So Dr. Payne is great to meet you and great to talk to you today on our podcast. We were talking just a moment ago about what happens to a man when he doesn't have a job. And I see us teaching character, we teach character development, all these things. But if at the end of the day, the man can't provide or he doesn't have a job, is there what happens to him? Just go for it. Okay. Well, one of the things is that I learned a lot of this from my former husband who was Native American Indian and Caucasian and lived in neighborhood of generational poverty. And he died in 2010 and they mostly came. But he had a brother named Jim Payne who died in 2011 in jail. One of the things that happens around the world is this, when you, when poverty around the world is feminized, more women than men because of children. But another pattern you see around the world in generational poverty, neighborhoods, is that men do not have work or they don't have intermittent work. And there's a brilliant African American sociologist out of Harvard. And he, his last name is Wilson. And he says this, if you want to break a culture, all you have to do is take work away from men because it's identity. See, here's what happens. You lose your job. Okay. Now you're no longer a provider. And what do you do with your time? You don't have money to go back to school. Okay. You don't have money for a hobby. You don't, you know, people in your house, so they're working extra hours to bring in what you're not bringing in. So you're lonely. Okay. So what do you do? All right. Now you could be a caregiver. Okay. A lot of times the children are in school. And so the bottom line, as you're looking for work and you're getting rejected, what do you do? So you do have a cup of coffee, a dollar for coffee, you go into town, you meet somebody. Next thing, you know, you're involved, but the one thing you can still do is protect. You can be a protector. Yeah. So you get involved. Now you're a lover, you're a protector. Okay. And what you'll see in second generation or more in generation poverty, what the feds call persistent poverty. The two male identities that are most admired are men who are physical fighters and men who are lovers. The bottom line is they're not the only two identities, but they're the ones that are most admired. Wow. Here's the problem. When you're a fighter or a lover, then you can never have stability. And I learned from Jim, Jim, who died in jail, I learned how it worked because he was a fighter lover. See when you're a fighter and lover, first of all, if you're a fighter, physical fighter, then you're going to eventually get in trouble with the law. And when you're in trouble with the law, then one of the things you have to do is put your job because if you don't, they come find you at work. Okay. And so then the problem is where do you go running hide for them because you don't have the money to get out of jail so you can only hide. So you don't go to your mothers because that's one of the first place law enforcement works. You don't go to your girlfriends, they look there. So one day he was running from the law, he came over to our house. I said, Jim, you can't stay here. I said, where are you going to go? He said, well, Ruby, I'm going to go to the local bar where everybody gets prettier at closing time. And that's where you went. The problem is you can never have stability. And the knowledge is we'll tell you that they can predict the amount of violence in the neighborhood by two things. The number of households that do not have men living in their amount of permanent basis. And the second thing is the educational attainment level of adults. Well, what happens in this mix then? Okay. How do you then get stabilized again? And we know that about 70% of first time prisoners don't have a high school diploma. Okay. So the issue then becomes because we're an acknowledged based economy, you can't compete in the workplace. So then how do you keep solid stable employment? Yeah. And without that, you can't have stability. And I need to say one more thing about protection. And then I'm going to let that go. But what many women don't understand is that if you're a female in poverty, you need protection. Okay, you've got to have it. Okay, because the last thing that people are going to call in a poor neighborhood is the law enforcement. So you need somebody because if you're not protected, your children are not protected. That's simple. So what you do is you invite men into your house, sold simply so you have protection. Yeah. An invisible shield of protection. And it gives males a role of value. And what happens to my brother and log gym is eventually, as he got older, he couldn't fight very well anymore. And he couldn't love very well anymore. So then women then want to take him in. He lost. And so in his sense, he lost his purpose and identity. Yes. Yeah. So the issue of poverty, first of all, let's define poverty because we've got to define that across. You can't just look at it in Houston, let's say. How do I define Houston and Campala? How do I define poverty? We define in my work poverty as a set of resources. We don't define it as financial. Okay. Find it as a set of nine resources. Okay. One is financial, but one is mental. Can you read and write and compute? Okay. A third one is emotional. Can you stay out of destructive stealth destructive behaviors like drugs, et cetera? Fourth one is physical. Does your body work? And what a lot of people don't know is that 75% of personal bankruptcies are actually related to a physical illness. Wow. So if your body doesn't work, it doesn't matter what else you have. Okay. The fifth thing is spiritual resources. Do you have a future story? Do you believe in divine guidance? Do you believe there's hope out there? Okay. Next one is support systems. Do you have a network of individuals who can help you? Okay. The next one is relationships and role models. Do you have those? Okay. In fact, in the hard research, the single most identifier of lifetime success is whether or not you have one caring adult. Wow. Well, you know, I just was speaking with Gregory Zuckerman, who is the writer for the Wall Street Journal and his won all sorts of awards. And he writes about resilience in the marketplace and things like that. And I said, what's one of the great indicators of success in the marketplace and resilience and grit and all these things. He said, oh, he said, that's pretty easy to define. He said, every single person I found had somebody who was there with them. He said, he said, he may not have even been a mentor. It was just brotherhood, somebody who was there. So that's, we find that something huge, isn't it? It's huge. There's two questions I like to ask to tell you everything. Number one, who do you care the most about? Hmm. And number two, who cares the most about you? And I'm listening for an adult. I don't care if it's an adult I'm talking to our kid, I'm listening for an adult. If they don't have an adult in their life that cares about them and they care about, they're significantly at risk. Loneliness is toxic, loneliness is deadly in the hard research. If you don't have anybody, it's huge. Okay. And then the other resources are formal register. Do you have the language of business and work? Do you have that? And the last one is, do you know the hidden rules? Hidden rules are unspoken, queuing mechanisms of a group. And they allow you to survive and they're not spoken. Like I was working with a group of a church and they were trying to do ministry to the homeless men. And they said to me, it's not going very well. And I said, well, no, I'm sure it's not. And they said, why not? Well, you're non verbals are wrong for starters. Okay. And number two, you don't know the hidden rules they're using. They have no respect for you. When you call your wife a wife, that's not how they reference their relationship. They reference them as old ladies and the bottom mile lady. And I said, one of the things you. They're looking for their cues to see if you know what you're, if you understand their reality. Yeah, that's a, yeah, that's a huge thing that Malcolm Gladwell writes about, isn't it? Thin slicing nonverbal cues. How we can, within a few seconds, even through somebody's face. Kind of the brain can say, okay, you're safe or you're not safe. Right. Just basically I guess one of the first purposes of the brain identity belonging and purpose seem to be overriding factors. And when you talk about poverty, identity belonging purpose person has to have purpose. See what happens over time when you don't have work. You don't have real identity. All you have is gender identity. So it boils down to I'm a real man. I'm a real woman. This is my man. This is my woman. Okay. But it's, it's not, it's gender identity. Like I was working with this 16 year old girl and she said to me, before I had my baby, before I was a woman and proof of your gender is whether you're able to have children. Yeah. Don't think middle class understands what a huge issue. Having children is in poverty. If you're a male and you don't have children. By the time you're 18 17 18. The stories in the neighborhood about you are not pretty. Really. So I saw a study last year on the thinning of the cortex Harvard. And they, they begin to talk about it in their studies. The, as you said, the hard evidence was that the thinner the cortex, the less they're able to learn. And that related directly to nutrition, which were related directly to poverty. I mentioned that to a teacher in Belize a while back and she said, she said, oh, we know that one. Basically, we say it this way, hungry kids can't learn. Right. So essentially, when we talk about poverty, we're actually not just talking about they don't have enough for fuel, let's say, for heating. We're really talking about the risk for millions of young people in the United States and around the world. I'm going on my way to Southeast Asia. You, you and your aha process work all over the world. So the real issue is it becomes, if you will, generational. Right. Don't have enough food, can't learn and it becomes a slippery slope. Well, and see them and it's even more than this. See what the myelin sheaths in the brain, which is what coats all the the axons. The thickness of the myelin sheaths is related to how much protein. The feeder Scott in the world and how much protein they get as they're growing up. Okay. And the protein in fact part of part of the myelin sheath is cholesterol. And what the myelin sheath does is the speed with which you can process information. Wow. Well, what happens in poverty that the food diet is high in carbohydrates and fats. And one of the reasons is carbohydrates and fats help your brain make serotonin and serotonin keeps you from being depressed. So that's why if you want that paleo diet for more than a week, you say you're going to have to kill somebody. Okay. You're not making any peritonin. Right. The bottom line on the thing is that in poverty, protein is hard to get your hands on. It's expensive. And so you don't get it. And the second thing that really, really is a huge issue in poverty is that's not only the protein, it's the language. University of Chicago did research and they found that you're in poverty to consecutive generations or more your IQ lowers by half a standard deviation point. And the half a standard deviation. Okay. And the bottom line is is you don't get access to language and you don't get access to abstract representational systems. Let me explain what I mean by that. Hey, this is Chris. I want to take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to let you know the brave men podcasts as a production of the Christian men's network worldwide in the global fatherhood initiative. Christian men's network has helped pastors and leaders disciple men for over 40 years. You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmin.min. That's the Christian men's network at cmin.min. We have 11 different audio books online in both English and Spanish. That includes maximize manhood, courage, never quit to name a few. You will find those on audible.com or where all good audio books are. For more information, please go to Christian men's network at cmin.min. It will help us continue to reach the lives of many men around the world. If you would like us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast and share it. That's the Christian men's network in Paul Lewis Cole. Now let's get back to this powerful interview between Paul and Ruby Payne. You, to do well in school and work, you have to live in the world of paper and computer. It's an abstract representational system. And the way I teach us, well, let me give you this story out of Haiti. I lived in Haiti for three and a half months. Wow. And was sent down there to study poverty and service. And I was working with four or five six year olds in this cleared out space in the trees. They called it an early childhood, they called it an early childhood center. But it was just a cleared out space in the trees. And this mother came running through the trees with a courtyard green slime. Now I'm not being disrespectful. I don't have any other words for you. Okay, she grabbed this little four year old old from behind. She ganked her and she started dumping this green stuff on her head. And the little girl was screaming. I mean, there was green stuff everywhere. And French is the formal register of Haiti, but you got to go to school to learn it. So most of them speak Creole, which is a casual register. Creole has half the words of formal register. So I couldn't speak the woman's dialect. I finally found somebody who could speak the woman's dialect. The mother explained that that morning her four year old had woken up with a mat and eye closed eye. The mother gone to a native doctor and he told her to do that. And I said, that's stupid. And the woman who could speak the dialect, she said, is it Ruby? She said, you need to think about it the way the mother does. At least that green stuff touches her daughter's eyes. She's a broken doctor. He's going to give her a tiny white pill that she puts in her mouth that makes her big toe better. And as far as she's concerned, that's magic. Yeah. The way I teach the kids is I take a picture of them. And I say this is you. And they'll go, yeah, I'll go with this picture breathing. And they'll go, no. How is it you if it's not breathing? And eventually they'll get around to saying it looks like me. It represents me. And I'll say exactly. And that's what school is about. The letters are not the things. The letters are not the sounds they represent the sounds. Numbers are not the things they represent the things that drawing in your biology book of a cell is not the cell. It represents the cell. It's an abstract representation world. Those words in the handbook are not your beat. They're not the behaviors they represent your behaviors. And that's why you have to follow it. And the bottom line is. It's a huge jump. And when you get in third world countries where the whole world is sensory based. And you want a school. It's a huge jump into that abstract representation world. One of the things that we talk about, Dr. Paine, is that when men don't accept responsibility. They stay in the tour. And what we seem to find all over the world and it seems to be an empirical evidence thing is that. When when men are immature and they don't accept responsibility. Then it becomes in most cultures the leading indicator of poverty. So would you relate for me because most of our. Men listening are leaders mentors. They're helping others and this helps. If you will give us a broader framework. But where because our whole thing is we want to lead men out of immaturity. Is that something you see in your work with all hop process and what you're doing around the world. Exactly. But see to control your behavior, you have to be able to plan. One of the, one of the realities about poverty is that poverty is a reactive. Okay, sensory nonverbal reality. You don't plan. The reason is that as your resources get thinner and thinner. So those nine resources I talked about as they get thinner and thinner and fewer and fewer. Then you spend all your time reacting. If you have to spend all time every day, just figuring out how you're going to get food. That's your thing you don't plan. And so in the hard research University of Berkeley, California. When they did brain scans on 11, 12 year olds from poverty in the prefrontal cortex where you plan. Okay. Their brains looked like kids. Their brains looked like adults who had a stroke. It's not developed. It can be so part of the huge problem here. And there's a brilliant Jewish educator named Ruben Feuerstein. He said this, when you can't predict, then you can't plan. If you can't plan, you don't know cause an effect. If you don't know cause an effect, you don't know consequence. If you don't know consequence, you don't control impulsivity. If you don't control impulsivity, then you have an inclination. It's an amazing thing that you do with Teddy bears. And it's on your website. And if I'm not mistaken, it's a aha process.com slash Teddy. And it absolutely because I had, I have friends who have been with different groups who have gone in and asked them to draw a picture of your village. Draw a picture of your city. Where are you? What are the different things? And I remember one, I'll never forget this. This person drew their village and they drew. Here's the children bathing because they were trying to figure out where all the disease was coming from this particular place. And here's the children and here's the women washing our clothes. And then here's the men using the bathroom. And it was all in a river that was flowing, starting from where the men were. And they said, well, what is this? Well, that's the children where they swim and that's where we wash the clothes and what's up here? So up river was where the men would use the bathroom, you know, so thinking of his private. So they're defecating and their urination was flowing through the clothes to the children. So very simply what this group did is going and build a series of outhouses, essentially. And begin to solve their disease. So if you will, a lot of what we're talking about here is unintended consequences. I don't plan. I don't think I don't have protein. You know, how do we begin and then the teddy bear to me was that picture because you explain that briefly. And then and then I'll thank you for all your time. I'll let you go. But man, that's a fascinating picture that you do there with the teddy bear. Well, the thing with the teddy bear is this, if we're building regulation into your brain, in other words, the simplest way to explain regulation is that voice inside your head that tells you what to do. The conscience. Your cut. Well, like example, you're on the highway, you know, somebody's driving away. You don't like, you know, you say something to yourself like, well, maybe tomorrow I can't kill him today. Okay. Where's the discernment? Okay. But the thing that happens in Teddy, teach Teddy is we give young children who don't have regulated brains yet. They have a stuffed animal. And that's a series that you zerox off and you teach your your stuffed animal less than every day. How to behave, you know, and what you do then is you. They, every day that behave, the teddy bear behaves correctly, i.e. them, they, they get a sticker. But one of the things I'm working on is sequel to most on poverty right now, finishing that up and it'll be done in August. But one thing's in there is a whole section on metaphor story. And one thing I would say is that metaphor story is the fastest way to teach adults because it goes in under the subconscious. It's fascinating to me that Jesus, Jesus used it as a primary teaching tool. But it goes in under the subconscious and what men, particularly men in generational poverty need because they'll listen to a story. A story is highly revered in poverty. A story about how somebody behaved and the two things to remember about a metaphor story is number one, never use proper names. And number two, understand the sequence you got to run him through. Number one, you got to run him through the problem in a representational way. Number two, you got to give a how to in the process. Number three, you got to, you got to end up with a solution because it gets embedded in the subconscious and the subconscious acts on it, even when the conscious doesn't know. It's amazing. One of the things that we teach is that is about identity to center a man's life as identity in Christ. And you talk a lot about self talk on some of the things I've read that you've written. But we teach this that your identity is actually the story you tell yourself about yourself. And there's a book I'm going to recommend you. It's just amazing. I'll have to email it to you. But it's this woman who's just finished a huge research study and she found out that when there's depression, mental illness, etc. There is no story inside their head is not congruent. In other words, it's not it's not constant. In other words, there's not a congruent between your past story, your present story and your future story. But and it's not congruent across context. So one thing that causes PTSD, for example, you can't get an into a congruent internal story. Wow. You know, I recently, last year, a Warren Farrell wrote a book, The Attack on Boys. And out of a, he's out of work. Yeah. Yeah. And just one of the things is summation. What was amazing is summation, if you wasn't at the end, it was the way I saw a summation. It was somewhere about two thirds of the way in where he said, the most important thing you can do for a young boy's wellness is for that boy to have a mother and a father. And it was it almost belies common sense that we find so many destructive ways that are destructive. But it really comes back to the biblical context of the role of a father. Exactly. You know, when you talk about security, that's actually a father's that's one of his roles. That's what he does. Yeah. Security, affirmation, gives identity, gives sense of self worth. And discipline, discipline because discipline, true discipline, always comes out of love. Not out of embarrassment or anger. Yeah. And you're dealing a lot with anger. And I could go on and on and on. But thank you for your time. I want to recommend the books by Dr. Ruby Payne. And the first book that that actually really seemed to jump out was a framework for understanding poverty. And you've now put that you've had a number of iterations of that come out, right? Yes, that's correct. Yeah. And so that's an important book, emotional poverty. And then so my whole thing for everyone, if we're going to solve this, we have to have a sense of understanding. And if we're going to solve things, we have to understand that quite often we're asking the wrong questions. And so when you teach us people like yourself teach us smart people, just like interviewing somebody like yourself. You help us reframe what our question is. You know, you're the nonverbal cues, those things. And we pray the blessings of God on you. We pray safety on you. We pray the favor of God in your work. And an expansive sense of understanding and wisdom in what you do. So thank you very much. And I can only tell you how grateful I am that you're working on behalf of men. I'm so grateful. Thank you so much. We look forward to connecting with you again in the future. Thank you so much. A constant thing that I always learn since I've been working with you, Paul, is that your mindset is everything. And when you can change your mindset, you can change your life. And I think that that is something that is so many times highlighted through Dr. Ruby Payne in this powerful interview. Well, it's whatever you allow to define you determines your destiny because your decisions all come from your definition. Yes. And in fact, that's what we hit May the 10th when we start the bartender series on YouTube. Hey, hey, identity purpose and calling. Did a guy named AC Green right? Yeah, sure did. Yeah, he was on the Lakers. The Lakers. The greatest basketball team in the world. Yeah, AC Green. Ace wrote the forward is a great friend. And Max May's manhood made a huge difference in his life as a young man. And he holds the title as the Iron Man at the NBA. He played in 946 games or something like that. Some ridiculous thing. Fun fact, I actually have an autographed jersey. Kobe Jersey. Number eight jersey that he signed. Really? That's fantastic. And he played, of course, with Phoenix and he set the record with the Dallas Mavericks. Oh, that's a team. Yeah, I get out of here, man. And so, you know, it's, so when we do the bartender. Yes. Just a bartender based on the life of Nehemiah. This is what Dr. Payne was talking about. He's not a man who shifted his mindset. God changed his identity. He grabbed a hold of it. It pulled. I mean, he's a slave. You don't get much more poverty than that. Than that. No. Right? And it began to change and shift. And as you see, Dr. Payne and the things she talks about, about poverty, emotional poverty, getting out of poverty, you know, the fact that at the very start of this maybe people need to go back and listen to it again. How she defined poverty is nothing. It wasn't about finances. No. Right? It wasn't just about money. It was about emotional resources. It was about infrastructure. It was about character. Yes. Right? That was a remarkable thing. I'm just so appreciate her being with us on Brave Man. But I even love, you know, and I'm not just saying this because I work for you. But just the intention out of that you did in this book. Because even, like, I think too many times us as men or women or whoever it is, we think that you have to be a certain qualification to change the world. And I love the fact that you highlighted that unexpected people change the world. It's the person that you, like, think about the lady that just walked into McDonald's, right? And somebody was having a terrible day and just said, Hi, I hope you have a great day. And that changed somebody's world. You never know what that person was about to do. I think that, you know, and that's what I love about you taking me in being intentional or about this book. And that's what we're going to learn even more about just a bartender. Yeah. And Monday Night Men. Yeah, with Monday Night Men, you can find that on YouTube at just type in search Monday Night Men. Yeah. Or go to the Christian Men's Network. You have to type it in all this one word, don't you? Yeah. Go to that and you'll find that YouTube channel. We've got all kinds of things on there. And again, I want to thank Ruby Payne, Dr. Payne for being with us on Brave Men today. Really a pleasure to meet her. I really was absolutely knocked out. And I hope you were too. So do this on this podcast because we have people like this all the time. We also have incredible teaching. We're going to come along. My wife and I are going to start talking about how you stay married for 50 years. Yes. Right? I'm going to take notes. Because we've done that? Yes. Yeah. We could do part that could be how to get married. Yes. Okay. We did it. We had to find that person. I was zero that thing in. So. But anyway, so we're going to do that on the podcast. But like us on wherever your podcast is. Yeah. Subscribe. Yeah, subscribe to us. Share it. And that changes the algorithms. Yes. Right? Yes. And so I, you know, but share it too. And show. Because you know that the inspiration, the information that you just learned, somebody else needs to hear. Man. No kidding. So that's what I'm saying. Click share. Seriously. And then it gives you the option to share it through text message, email. Really? Instagram, Facebook, whatever it is. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. You can share it. Podcast by a text. Yes. So bam. Hit share. Text it to somebody. Dude, I'm telling you. There's every single one of us probably knows 20 people. Exactly. We need to hear this interview with Ruby Pan. Yes. And, you know, I didn't know her before. You know, look at the book. You had read the book. I looked at the stuff. I mean, this is, this is right down my alley. Because I'm into this. We're into this. It's Christian men's network. It's a global fatherhood initiative. We're building a curriculum to help men start businesses. Yes. Because if a man can't provide for his family, you can, you know, he can go to church. He can read his Bible. He can talk nicely to his kids. He can hug his wife. But if he can't provide for his family, he still feels like crap. Exactly. I mean, just put it out there. So, man, in the beauty of her stuff, it wasn't just stats about all this bad stuff. Yeah. Right? She's like, okay, here's all this stuff. Here's how we start solving it. Yes. And it's solved by each one of us doing something. Exactly. Man, it doesn't, man, we are such wanting home runs in 80 yard past plays. Yeah. And that's why I love how the game is won by three yard plays. Yeah. But I mean, that's why I'm always inspired when I hear the sermon by Bishop Del Brunner, where God solves problems with people. And guess what? You are a person. So get in the game. You are a person. That's what God uses people in. Yes. You're a person. You're a person. And the other one is Bishop Ulmer, and his finished the assignment message. Yes. Which is on a Chief Lab. Yes. It's cmn.min. When you become a partner with us, to reach the dangerous nations of the world, the 50 most dangerous nations of the world that we're going after out of this studio. When you become a partner with us, you get access to over 400 hours. And one of them is Ulmer's, a Bishop Ulmer's piece on finished the assignment. Yes. Goodness, man, that message right there, he gave it. We were in Fort Worth at the Sheraton Hotel. And he said, and the theme was mission, because I've got the word for it. Oh, wow. And he was right. Dude, that guy nailed that thing. Finish the assignment. So good. Hey, and there are guys that are like Bishop Ulmer and are like Bishop Del Brunner that are going to be at this year's global summer. And you do not want to miss it, because guess what? It's going to be the best one yet. No pressure, Paul. It is going to be the best one yet. It's going to be. They just get better every year. We build, we, it's layer upon layer, pre-sub to pom pre-sub. Yeah. And you build on what's happening. It's so good. And thank you for being a partner with us on at Christian Men's Network. See him in. Amen. And thank you for listening to Brave Men podcast and sharing it, right? Yes. Remember, hope is a live. Hope has a name. Hope's name is Jesus. And I love my wife. Amen. you guys will see you next time.