BraveMen S3E88: Charles Martin - Turning the World Upside Down

Hey, welcome to Brave Men podcast and great to have you here again today. I'm Paul Lewis Cole President of Christian men's networking with me as our producer Chris shields and Chris We got an amazing guy here today Charles Martin is an author of 15 novels But he did two books that are what they call non-fiction. Yes, okay, even though all of his books include things out of the word of God And he did a book that became a well-known movie the mountain between us with Who is that Kate Winslet somebody else and somebody else? Yes, yeah Yeah, you're on that one Yeah, but he's written this he wrote this two book series of which I think it's great Really fascinating because he talked about the disciples talked about Jesus and one of them Yeah, what if it's true what if it's true, right? Mm-hmm, and then the second one which we talked probably more about in this conversation I actually kind of pulled them both in They turned the world upside down. Yeah, right and Charles Martin, I mean this guy who went to region University, which is which offset the fact he went to Florida State Right? Yes, definitely. I mean if it was just Florida State, we wouldn't read his books Okay, so I just I just missed everybody in Jacksonville So anyway, but we love Florida. Yes, that's where our vice president lives. Yes, Joanne Webster Okay, and and the accounting people who keep us out of jail. Yes So we love Florida. Yes, and and we're great friends of Miami. Yes, right and all over the state. Yes Before the state that's a whole other deal. Okay, anyway Come on, man. You're a West Coast guy. Yeah, I mean you were rooting for UCLA. Why aren't you? Yes? Yeah, that's too bad But it guns on his West Coast Yeah, well, I'm from California though. Okay, so that was it. Yes, the Cali. Yes, and I mean Levin championships like get out You see a late Charles Martin's gonna write a book about you It's just called the discer the unbeliever something like that This guy is an amazing author. Yes, written Incredible number of books and it was great to have him on our podcast really a blessing Yes, and I just love how he takes it from a different angle than the norm. Yeah, you know, he Even in the subtitles of both of these books. He talks about being a storyteller with these stories You know, so he's breaking it down from a perspective that oftentimes wouldn't be so Confined, you know, yeah, so it's nonfiction, but with a what I told him I in this in this our conversation was he made stuff come alive Exactly, talks about stuff these guys really went through exactly we we kind of Stanglass the thing don't we yes, we do and we allow you know, one of the greatest things that I Really have admired is when we allow the Bible to come along, you know, and that's why it's key What you always teach us about keeping our heart pure, you know, because how our heart is It's what's going exactly going to filter, you know, how the scripture comes alive And I think oftentimes we put our perspective our religiosity on the Bible when it's like no God wasn't that that you know Confined he actually had color and it was unconfinaable. Yes, exactly Yeah, I think that that is what Charles Martin does so well in these two books a storyteller's journey with those who dared to follow Jesus Yeah, Charles Martin and you know also it's cool to hell on the podcast somebody has their own Wikipedia You know And a great conversation Fascinating guy, man, he gets right to it gets into it and In this this book again, they turned the world upside down Charles Martin M. A. R. T. I. and we talked about it during the thing and You know in order to Grow ourselves and large ourselves. That's how we have all the tools at Christmas Network see him in dot men So when we do brave men podcasts Monday night men We do the other things the majoring in men dot com all of the things we do as a ministry It's about to do what Charles is talking about here. Yes, which is becoming daring men. Yes, right? Yep, and keeping our heart pure Yeah, you know, because you only can grow to the level that you have your heart pure You know and often times we're wondering man. Why isn't that thing growing? Why isn't it expanding to a way that God showed me at would yeah And we have to check ourselves and that's what I'm telling you Does it always come back to self accountability and a lot of ways, dude. I didn't want to hear that Responsibility this and I'll tell you what this is this is a great conversation You're gonna enjoy that and thank you Chris for putting this together with with Charles Martin Fantastic author tremendous conversation and you're going to meet a fascinating man who's given us Two really powerful books along with his novels, but two powerful books for it in large our lives today on that brave man It's brave man with Paul Lewis Cole Wisdom encourage for the journey You Talking with Charles Martin who's the author they turned the world upside down and it's great to have you on brave men podcast today Charles you know when you talk about two different books. It's somewhat like writing talking about 66 books The Bible and we we tend to look them at them as independent Particularly since you know a few hundred years ago. They numbered everything And not as part of a story And all the story about Jesus And what you've done is you've put in a form that's really a great read and if you will for just a guy like me Sometimes we get we get hung up on all the numbers of the scriptures and all that And you made it in real form like J. Iris a whole story of J. Iris you have and they turn the world upside down Where you made him a real person He's trying to figure out how he's going to talk to his wife How's he going to tell her Right you're gonna tell her that this guy said believe in me and he's like what the heck does that mean right Yeah And and what was the I mean obviously this is kind of part of all of everything you've written you've written 15 Books that all have novel form, but they turn the world upside down as about these disciples that They saw stuff happen and it was like it changed our lives and then they changed everything else There's somewhere I'm 51. I've been writing since I was 15 okay So writing is how I make sense of all the stuff in here going on with me It was true when I was 15 I started because I couldn't figure out what to do with grades and girls and school and football and hormone And I didn't know to do it all that soup. So so I started writing Anyway today When I sit down and I just you know, I've been at my computer for four or five hours today I'm still doing the same thing. I'm trying to figure out what I think Years ago in my read of scripture like you know, you talk about the 66 books for me it was kind of always Segmented diving into scripture was kind of hard for me Until I figured this out and it was something that the Lord maybe the Lord showed me this In grad school. I'm not sure maybe Lewis and Tolkien had something to do with this because I studied a bunch of writers in grad school but And I got to get elders some credit here too. I think he probably informed this but This idea that from in the beginning to amen is really a story and it's a love story about a king who Loved his brothers and sisters so much that he did not think equality with God something to be grasped But he humbled himself and took off his crown and took off his ring and put his diet in the corner and took off all his priestly and kingly garb Dressed in a loincloth ends up here in a gooey mass birthed by this young girl and then lives as a man Amongst a bunch of folks like us just broken We all walk with the limp people and he loves him. He loves him and he lays down his life form and he pays a price for their sin That that they could never pay in the thousand years and not only does it pay it for them, but he pays it for us And the reason the king does this is not just to save us from an eternity in hell Which yes, he absolutely does that and I thank God for the blood of Jesus and how it cleanses me from all unrighteousness But that the cross is not the destination. It is part of the journey The destination is the empty tomb He's alive where is he he's seated at the right hand with the father and the reason is He said I'm the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father But by me the reason for Jesus Is to return us to the father so once I saw that those 66 books kind of encapsulated in one book You know on my my that's I table or dresser or desk or whatever And I saw the love story of the king who came and ran some then gave up his life for a wicked black-hearted center like me then I was able to sort of make sense Of the story and each of the books that you talk about took their place In that story and they had context and I kind of had hooks and I could hang them up and So it was it was a gift from the Lord that yeah, I think he allowed me one to be a storyteller To perceive life through story and then To understand my relationship with him through the greater story that was a beautiful gift from him to me wow Yeah, so Jesus Jesus is is uh the king Is the king come to earth to uh Not just to save us from something but to be in relationship Yeah Yeah, and Let's back up to let's just back up to the second. I would love to have been here Jesus is resurrected spends about 40 days with his friends does all kind of stuff deals with their unbelief Restores Peter yeah takes his shame and gets rid of it puts him back in the lineup Then they walk up this mount together and they think I mean they've been to the Mount of Olives a lot of times yeah And I wonder if it ever crossed their mind They're retracing the steps that they took and they're just retracing them backwards that they took the night He's crucified. I don't know if it ever crossed their mind. I'd love to know it But they are they crossed the Brook Kidren down through the garden Up onto the Mount of Olives and I think in my scripture as I say this it sort of does in some places But this is my interpretation. I think Jesus was a hugger. I don't think he was indifferent I don't think he sort of stood over there and said you may not approach. I don't think he was like that at all I think he Was a on arm around you. I think he was a jungle gym for kids I think he was always in their business. I think that he loved it And they're walking up the Mount of Olives thinking this is just one more day And they're starting to think about the possibilities because he's defeated death and he they're thinking Rome is next And of course he sees the father's chariot steps in and the only thing left in his wake is something like Haley's comet And two angels are sitting there saying hey, why are you standing looking up in this guy? He's gonna return the same way you left now. I think all those people who were in relationship with Jesus Turned around and walk back down that hill with one singular question On their mind which is why I wrote this book which is this what on earth do we do now? Yeah, they had as authority They had his commands They knew what he said they just didn't have his power And then they go back into Jerusalem and they sit there in a couple days later the roof starts to shake and from there these men and women who loved him and followed him communicated this message Which when we get to act 16 or 17 Paul and Silas walk into Thessalonica, which is a thousand miles northwest of Jerusalem Wow, you got across an ocean. Yeah, you got across an ocean to get there unless you want to walk way around your elbow Get to your thumb and by the time they walk into town The local rulers have heard of Paul and Silas and the power that they wield and they're afraid because Rome doesn't like the competition And they described them as these are they who have turned the world upside down. No translation says These are they who have upended the inhabited earth So tell me about let's go back. So now you've done study When when you ride of course you put yourself in that moment, right? I mean, you're thinking of it Like these are men who really live this really happened How would I react? What would what would go on and you say Jesus was a hugger. It's uh Fascinating to me. I think of him as uh You know, he's a stone mason and Carpenter says I guess in the translation was they didn't use wood, right? Right. I agree with you. I think he was a stone mason and he had probably had very muscled callus tans Yeah, I think the guys I think the guys pretty cut Yeah And he's and he's a man's man But if you've ever been like you've been on athletic teams There's a lot of touching Like you're hitting each other you're grabbing each other So the disciples it wasn't like they were all sitting around in a little half moon and him in the middle of going you know No, it's like there was stuff going and there was another was he was actually a man Divinity in humanity. Tell me about the humanity of Jesus As you see other things you talked about You talk about me um, you know put myself in their place and in their emotions and I want to be really careful because I hold I don't know that I hold anything higher than Then the word. I mean like I I I spent time in and I love it. I revered. I know the I know the warning to folks like me who come along and and and the warning and revelation that says it's really bad or anybody that That is as anything to this word. So in the book one of the things I try to do yes. I am a novelist. Yes Maybe I have some craft as a novelist, but I try to Whenever I'm starting to tell a story where I might use some of my craft I try to set it up and tell the reader. I look hold it. Let's let's just agree scripture is over here scripture says what it says it says But let me try and use These places in scripture to interpret itself And maybe add some color that hasn't been there before do I know for certain that this is the way that it happened No Do can we kind of surmise maybe one example would be really in the book. I talk about the soldier Grab in the stick on the sponge and shove it in Jesus mouth. Well, I never I never really knew this But when I dug into that If you look at the history of Roman armies and specifically centurions when they were brought into service not only where they given Of a shield and sandals and a sword But they were given a sponge and a stick and a jar of vinegar It was called a Tursorium and the reason is this an army that large Has to be fed and a fed army's got to go to the bathroom and a fed army that large then brings with it Sanitary concerns and a sick army is a dead army So the Romans were pretty smart and the vinegar was used with the sponge to clean their backside. It's toilet paper There on the cross We see Jesus hanging there. He says I thirst the centurion dips the sponge in the vinegar and shoves it in his mouth. I've heard that taught as You know the soldiers having mercy on Jesus. I don't think that's consistent with their treatment of him save one who said Truly this was the son of God. I think he's mocking him and I think he shoves feces laced vinegar in his mouth Do I know that's the way it happened? No, did I write that with fear and trembling? Yes a little bit Do I think that might have been maybe you ask about the humanity of Jesus? Well, he's hanging up there and he's thirsty Let's back up a couple hours. Let's go back into the garden This is the son of God who's 100% man and he's 100% God do I understand that not really somehow he cloaked his divinity But I do know he's in the garden with his with his buddies. He's asked them to pray and he's over their sweat and blood and his request to the father is if It be your will Let this cup pass for me because he knows he's about to drink the cup of wrath and I don't know if it's the divine son of God asking that or the human guy like me Not that Jesus is like me, but the human part of Jesus asking that and it amazes me that he's on his face Before God the father Saying if it be your will let this cup pass for me Yeah, it's you know that's stunning stuff and of course, you know one of the things that the that I know you and most of his teachers If you wanted to who God is look at Jesus Because how he treated people his you know if you will his his You know dealing with shame touching the impure being with people in the margins uh It wasn't like he came to heal those who were sick And you know, let me ask it. Let me go back In the previous book you know when we talk about Jesus and his upbringing and that sort of thing Let me just and again, this is just just us talking What impact What impact it is Dad is earthly dad Joseph Having Jesus's life in all your study you've done a lot more study than most of us Kind of impacted you have because we don't necessarily see it, but obviously we see the effect of it Well Yes, we see the effect of I don't know that we know that and it's hard to extrapolate from scripture when he see him on when we see him on the cross He it says the woman stood it's the women's stood at a distance everyone except his mom and the reason for that is because Jesus is totally naked You know, we've seen all these paintings of Jesus half cloth. I would love to think that's the case It's not true. They shame him. He's totally naked as mother came close and he said mother behold your son And Jesus and his just he's the first born and he and he gives the responsibility for caring for his mother to John The reason is because obviously Joseph is gone so somewhere between you know Birth in 33 somewhere Joseph dies, but let's back up. Let's look at the impact of the father on Jesus. Let's back up to Passover age 12 Mary and Joseph go to Jerusalem. Jesus obviously is with them They spent they celebrate the feast they leave they get a days walk outside of Jerusalem. You've ever spent time there You know a walk outside of Jerusalem is entirely downhill because everything except except Mount Hermone is below Jerusalem Jerusalem's about 2500 feet everything else is below And so they get them days walk out and Mary looks at Joseph and says I thought he's with you. I thought he's with you Nope, they turn around they walk back up till they find Jesus. It says three days later I want you to think about what they were doing Pulling their hair out look at Mary. I mean I mean think about it really they cannot find to their son I think I'm gonna find him they find him three days later. I surmise they found him on the southern steps of the temple because that's Where these people would have had these conversations. It's the same place. We see Peter stand up and acts to and give his sermon and she says didn't you know? I mean, you know Didn't you know we were looking for you my translation is boy, where you been? You're right and and Jesus says to her mother Did you not know that I must be in my father's house? Well, Jesus has just done something that no rabbi had ever done because it was forbidden by the law and Leviticus He just called the ancient of days my father Which is a stoneable offense because he's calling himself the son of God What we'll see is that 21 years from that date On that same day wow These same men will gather on that same mountain and they will kill the boy that man becomes why? Because he claims to be the son of God. So I don't know exactly the exact Input of Joseph on Jesus, but I do know that God the father Was so intimate with him and we see this in John 17 when John's when Jesus says so that they might know I've made known to them your name, which is father He uses it over 165 times in the gospels He talks about it more than the kingdom more than money more than anything He says I've made known to them your name so that They meaning you and I and everybody listen Might know the love with which you have loved to mean That ought to make our fuzzy little heads explode. Yeah Yeah, when he prayed our father he invited us in It's pretty intimate phrase And because it gives us an image Right and we think in images He said here's the image. I want you to think of me as our father You know going back to the the him being in the temple You know in the temple steps and and them not seeing him I to me that it's sort of like he grew up in community You know And they just thought he was with one of the other families headed back You know he was he was um, you know Nazareth was a real small dusty little place and and he grew up there And of course the minute he started his ministry moved to a bigger city. So I think it's fascinating Right moved to Capernaum and Yeah, and You know the humanity sometimes Charles I think in the beauty of when you write these things is you bring it out these are people And you talk about Jesus on the cross and the how we see him in paintings And it's like the Swedish Jesus, you know The That's what I call the blonde hair Jesus, you know the blonde hair and blue eyed Jesus. Yeah, you know Maybe you have blue eyes, but uh, maybe he's from northern you know, have northern african in them, but But the thing is is that The humanity of Jesus I think is so important for us to grab a hold of because then Then he's he's us It's not some sort of thing that's far away. He his experiences are experienced I also think they're interesting thing about you know, it was up till 12 years old where your your mother basically raised you in that culture and And then dad took over So I always think of uh two things on that Number one, I think Joseph is like ah crap. I have lost the Messiah My wife is never going to forgive me Right it's like yeah, are you kidding me? You know, it's like I had one job Right don't lose him And any parent who has kids I mean has has I mean, I'm still sorry John T. Reeves. I'm still sorry that we forgot you I promise it still dings my heart, but it doesn't encourage me that you know Mary and Joseph didn't get it right one hundred percent of the time either so I'm grateful Yeah, and and then the other thing is I think a lot of the wisdom he was confounding him with this stuff his mom taught him Which I think it's pretty cool You know, I guess you know Yeah, go ahead again. I don't know it's you know, the one of the amazing things for me is that Jesus is on a percent man and on a percent God When did he know what he knew and what did he know and I don't know I that that is beyond me I'm dust and what can the clay say to the potter I have I don't know how to make sense of all that but I do know that it was his mother who let him in the public public ministry at the wedding She said hey do something about this wine problem and he said mom my time is not yet come But he obeyed her and then we end up with the best wine and the history of wine. So yeah, you know you're right One of my favorite stories, but I wasn't was it is that John too right in Cana And she says to the servants and I think it's her phrase right there Is a phrase that basically for all of us Whatever he says do it What's funny to me is she turns the servants he's going like Mom, I'm not doing this yet. She's like whispering to him, but we know who you are She turns the servants goes whatever he says do it and then she leaves And his disciples like to what are you gonna do? She's my mom You know what also makes you wonder Again, I'm outside of scripture here. So Just bear with me, but this is a storyteller enemy speaking up. Why did she say that in the first place? And they don't want to think that she had some experience with this in the past As she knew and and I don't again this is one of those areas where I'm outside the bounds here, but She knew something that the other people around her did not know and how did she know it and So I'll leave it there Let's leave it there. Hey, you know Jesus Friend of mine wrote a book called The Bad Habits of Jesus And and he was talking about how he broke the rules, right? And turning the world upside down means basically you're going against what everybody says these are the rules And if you turn the world upside down you're saying there's a there's a higher place And and he got most of these guys killed, right? Well all saved John and they tried to kill him, but they couldn't so they exiled him to an island Yeah, they got they put them on an island. They said okay nobody will ever hear from him now Right that worked out we saw that worked out Yeah, but you know the beauty of that was that John one where he says on the Lord's Day I was worshiping and my deal about John Is that even when things were looking good? He's surrounded by armies on an island. He just keeps showing up Yeah, right isn't that the picture of the what they turned the world upside down as these guys just kept showing up Well, yeah, I think so because they they definitely didn't know what they were doing they had no manual for this and and also Right this phrase they turned the world upside down turning the world upside down wasn't the goal It was the fruit of the obedience that they had for him so good and and their love for him They they loved this man Jesus and they fell at his feet and they surrendered their will to his as Lord of Lords and King of Kings And everybody today wants a savior and not everybody today wants a Lord. There's a big difference But Jesus is both and he requires both Surrender and worship and just checking the I'm saved I'm a guy got my fire insurance I don't think that counts for entrance into the kingdom if you want entrance into the kingdom Then we submit our will and surrender wholeheartedly to the righteous reign and justice and government Which is upon his shoulders and his only and we serve him We deny ourselves pick up our cross and follow him and that's what these guys and these women did yeah Hey, this is Chris. I want to take him on right in the middle of this great conversations Now let you know the brave men podcast is a production of the Christian men's network worldwide in the global fatherhood initiative Christian men's network has helped pastors and leaders disciple men for over 40 years You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmn.min That's the Christian men's network at cmn.min We have 11 different audio books online in both English and Spanish that includes maximize manhood Courage and never quit to name a few you will find those on audible.com or where all good audio books are For more information, please go to Christian men's network at cmn.min that's the Christian men's network at cmn.min It will help us continue to reach the lives of many men around the world if you would like us on Facebook Follow us on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast and share it That's the Christian men's network and Paul Lewis Cole now. Let's get back to this powerful interview between Paul and Charles Martin And women. I think that's really important. It was she was a woman was a first one to To open it to come to the empty tomb Yeah, and I love that. I love the fact that Jesus Presence or or or removes the cloak of his divinity to allow her to see him first and the reason I think I try to say this in the book the reason I think that is because In my mind Jesus dies on the cross. He and I'm taking this from I think purchase second Peter. He descends into hell Registers the biggest Butt weapon in the history of butt weapons and then he leaves there after having set all the captives free and preach to the souls and heaven with the keys to death in Hades dangling from his belt and he's headed back to present himself to his friends And he sees Mary at the tomb and he knows her heart is broken But all their hearts are broken, but Mary's got something going on on We don't know about the others and that's that he drove seven demons out of her And so Mary's got a little bit different concern Mary is sitting at the tomb thinking Is permanent and are they coming back? Wow, and to me she's worried Like on a really big level and Jesus knows that so he wants to assure her not only are they not coming back But I've driven a stake in the ground for all of mankind for always and forever and my daughter you're free Wow, that's why I think he came back to her Wow It's not that he loved the guys that he less He just knew he had some work to do in her heart now I'm jumping around but for me he also he's also got a problem with his with his with his leader Okay, the the the captain of the defense is Peter and anytime there's a chance for somebody to open his mouth and speak I mean, let's look let's go to the transfiguration. He's standing there The Lord is lit up like the sun and he pokes his head the crowd and he says it is good for us to be here I mean dude if there's ever a moment to be quiet. It's probably right there But Peter at the crucifixion does the very thing Jesus says he's going to Peter denies him and interestingly enough He does it over a charcoal fire talking to a slave girl. So he disappears. He's riddled in shame He doesn't feel worthy to follow Jesus And where do we find him? Well, we find him having returned to the Northern Galilee He's back in a boat and because he's the leader all these other Jack wagons are with him Because they don't know what else to do because their leader doesn't have his head right Jesus knows he's got to spend some time with Peter not only to get his head right but also to heal his heart And he knows his buddy is riddled in shame He ends up on the northern northwestern side of the beach. He got a little place called Topka The guys in the boat boat CM. Hey, it's the Lord and notice what Peter does not do He does not say Lord tell me to come to you. Why? Well, he does not feel worthy to walk on water He doesn't feel worthy to serve the Lord He also then takes his cloak and wraps sort of bounty Well, why? Because he's covered in the shame. What person covers up when he's going to swim in anyway He swims to shore. He lands on the beach and my mind Peter's letting his hair down over his eyes because he don't want Jesus to see the whites But when he lands on the beach, he's got a problem and the problem is there is a charcoal fire lit by Jesus Wow So I think Jesus is immediately taking Peter back to that Denial that confession when Peter made the wrong confession and he's giving him the chance It's the best do over in the history of do over He's given Peter the right chance to make the right confession and I've heard this taught where You know folks like me come along and they say Jesus is telling Peter do you love me? Feed my lambs Do you love me feed my sheep or feed my sheep feed my lambs? Do you love me? And it's this real poking in the chest thing. You know, I don't think that's not consistent I with with the Jesus I read in scripture. I think Jesus sat down next to Peter. He gave him a plate of fish Peter won't look at him and in my mind Jesus lanes in and puts his forehead right up against Peter and he speaks to his body and he says Peter Do you love me? He knows the answer. He's not asking it for because he needs the answer He's asking it for Peter's benefit right and Peter says you of course, Lord. Do you know that I do it? And well then okay feed my sheep And the thing that he's doing with Peter is he's removing the shame that the enemy is just absolutely Post whip and Peter with And he's taking that identity out. It's not that's not your identity Peter. I get to tell you you are not the enemy You're not a denier. I'm going to tell you how you're going to die for me. Do you love me? Feed my lambs and this is starting to trickle in Peter's mind like if he's telling me to feed his sheep That once again makes me a shepherd like him Maybe I'm worthy to follow him again, but there's still one thing yet remain and that's the broken schism and Peter's heart And finally after the third time Jesus looks at Peter and I this is one of the most beautiful things and any of us Who have ever committed sin that we're ashamed of be it abortion divorce adultery Murder you name it, okay any of us who have Betrayed our king and won't look him in the eyes. He comes along to us and he says hey I doesn't identify you It might be true. You might have done it, but while you were still a center. I Did I died for you? So let's don't mock my death. Listen to me Follow me And I think in that beautiful moment Peter you know his heart is men Did Jesus basically? Does what we read in Ezekiel 36 to 37 He pulls out Peter's hardest stone he puts on a heart of flesh and the beautiful thing is we finally see Peter Become the Peter we all wanting to be when he stands on the southern steps and acts to and gives maybe the second best sermon ever given second only to the one given on the mount and Yeah, Peter Peter God blessing becomes the giant that And I think the Lord the Lord did this early he knew he knew he had to deal with shame and he does that with us And I think the invitation is still there for all of us who would follow at his feet. Hey Feed my sheep follow me come on man that is Charles that's so deep, you know shame I think is is one of the biggest killers of men following after Christ with with reckless abandon wholeheartedly because It is an identity and man you nailed it guilt is something we can deal with because guilt is an action of our hands Let's say something I did You know, I did that wrong. I did the thing with my hands, but shame is Is your identity it be it's who's in your heart? So you've gone from hands to heart And now man feels like okay. This is my identity and that and that shame begin to permeate because your identity Definitions produce decisions decisions produce destiny So that that identity You know, it's what Jesus said. It's what it's Paul Paul talked about the gospel in the gospel and Colossians and glaciers So he said you know identities in Christ It's a new identity and and man that picture of Jesus helping heal Peter's heart because that is If you will shame is is a prism right came to set the captives free I love the words of Paul and Romans when he says and it's really simple and if you read Romans enough You kind of start skipping over it, but it's what can separate us from the love of Christ I mean We could spend an hour talking about that right there and all of us guys The Lord has allowed me to walk with a group of rag tag rag him up and you know To for the last 15 years. I mean guys in my Bible study. We've done life together About 15 years ago we started meeting and we risked this we risk saying to one another. All right Hey I've got stuff in my closet buried that I don't want to share with you and I I'm gonna take it to the grave There's no way on guys green earth I'm gonna let you in there stay the Holy Spirit. So let's do this. Let's Will you walk with me? Can I trust you with me? Can we walk with me to my basement door? Let me fling it open and turn on the light because my enemy is using that stuff to keep me From my king and as we've done that from affairs pornography to abuse to I mean, you know, it's all the stuff. It's all the stuff. We're afraid of all the stuff All the stuff, okay Yeah, and the amazing thing that happens is when you hear men say this you realize gee I'm not alone I am absolutely not alone And then the Lord does this beautiful thing where because he said confess your sins to one another And it's for freedom that he really came to set his free the enemy cannot stand it when you take the truth when take take what is Hidden and turn turn the light on and let it just speak it out into the stratosphere because he loses his grip on you come on, man and I have seen this I have seen this happen like A lot of times and it's one of the most beautiful. I've seen people heal looks seen people delivered But one of the coolest things I get to watch is the Lord freeing men from the shackles of shame of their own sin and having done it with me I'm not I don't have the monopoly on this. I'm I haven't arrived. I'm not there I'm not speaking to you or anybody else because I'm somehow like you know Got this thing figured out. I'm just telling you that the word is true and and these guys were like us and the fruit Of the freedom they found was they turned the world upside down But that was never their intention their tension was if you loved me obey my commands and they did it And I look at them and I think to myself. I What is wrong with me? I want to be like them. My life should look like acts if it doesn't the problem is not him and his spirit or his word The problem is me and my lack of belief and my little petty faith And you know, and that's the beauty of it is that he can take us No matter how small that our little like hey, I want to try to do this He can any kind of you know, that's what Paul told Timothy said if you just kind of move Then he's he's gonna bridge the rest of that gap You lean every plate and every place of scripture where Jesus delivered or healed someone or You And to them Request that they asked Never not once does he look at any of those people and say to them You don't actually know the exact percentage of your faith meter and you know what you ain't crushing it and you just don't have enough So go home right now and and let me um, you know when you get enough faith When you get enough faith come on back and and then we'll try this he never does that He takes what they bring him the thing is though That they brought it to him and I just I don't look. I don't I need more faith But I want to I want to bring these things to Jesus Like whatever it is my unbelief my petty little faith my whatever let me just bring it to him And then let the Holy Spirit do what only the Holy Spirit can do Talking with Charles Martin Charles. Thank you for being with us on brave man podcast They turn the world upside down as the book we've been talking about and then the the book before that It's part of the same story is what if it's true. What if what Jesus said is actually true Charles Martin authored a New York Times bestseller you've you've got 15 books and more on the way and Graduate of Florida state we won't hold that against you And Because you went to region so that sort of like that that's an offset. I think you know, right? Let's be let's be true I started out at Georgia Tech trying to play football and I got hurt and I wouldn't a good football player Anyway, but I got hurt and transferred to Florida state because it was in state tuition And because my best friend was there and if my dad played football at the University of Florida And how he ever played Florida's paid Florida state tuition. I have no idea what he did So wow because that's like those that's like George's second Georgia those worlds don't Yeah, Alabama Auburn. It's all that stuff man. Yeah, it's that deep Yeah, it is deep Anyway, it's is really been great to meet you Charles and thanks for taking the time and thank you for the With taking the pain of putting books to print Um This is uh everybody wants to have written a book, right? There's millions of writing courses But it's another thing to actually is Seth Godin says to actually press send Yeah, I look I I'm probably a better rewriter than I am writer and I probably sweat my books I probably sweat my books more than I write them, but I do know this I am grateful to to do What the Lord lets me do and and I mean that I see it as a privilege. Yeah And uh, this is the W publishing group and you're out on this Thomas Nelson book I haven't even bought yet. This one is W publishing W publishing Which is part of Thomas Nelson, isn't it? Correct. It's under the Harper Collins umbrella Sam Moore was a friend of mine. He was an amazing man and uh all of that what it is today because of uh Because of a guy and his brother who were willing to go door to door and try to sell Bibles to people That's right. That's exactly right And now we see all of this today, and it's it's absolutely amazing And then for them to be able to take you Charles Martin and put you out in front of people And I just I mean, I just can't tell you how much I appreciate what it takes for you to do what you do To do the writing for your wife Christy to pray for you. You've got uh three children Three boys. Yeah three boys Dude, it's awesome and you're did you black but you just black belted recently? Well, that's not recently. It's been a couple of years But but when when I was when the boys were young we were doing the whole baseball thing Yeah, and I figured out they weren't two into baseball and So I said what do you want to do when we were passing the martial arts school and they said let's go do that So I said, well, can we do it with you? So we all went through taekwondo and tested for black belts at the same time now Could I do all of that stuff now? No, am I that flexible now? No I'm I'm older. I don't have those reflexes Yeah, I got the belt, but I might have to slap you with it right now rather than tie it actually Oh, man, but I but I will tell you what I appreciate about that is that when you do these stories You have that texture and grit to it of a real person And too much of what we do is quote unquote Christian movies and Writing whatever is just so sanitized man. It's just it's just not real. It's you don't live that way. You're not a guy, you know everybody has stuff and And so I appreciate that I appreciate the fact that it's got that kind of grit in it and So thank you Charles for doing that and it's great to just meet you and spend some time with you a few minutes Thank you. I've enjoyed it and I appreciate you. Thank you Hey, man, really this is um I've read like what 42 pages in this thing now, so I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it You know, I never did actually get a copy of the book. I had to pay retail man I'm sorry. What is up? It's all good. I'm I'm like into it. I I tip people extra. I pay retail for books You know, it's part of what right it's all kingdom stuff, man And I'll yeah for some reason this image is coming to mind and it's You know, you I'm circling back to the humanity of Jesus. Yeah, yeah And and I talk about this in the book, but the woman caught an adultery All those religious You know, folks bring them bring her to Jesus and he's in the temple And I think she's probably naked because she was caught in the act and they want to shame her So I highly doubt they allowed her to cover up and also think you're trying to get a reaction out of Jesus Yep And they don't get it and what's worse, you know, you're talking about me being a writer as a writer I would love to know when Jesus stood down and wrote in the sand what did he write and I think probably also he was In a sense, I think he's defending the woman in a in a neat way because he's taking their eyes off of her And they want to know what he's right And then he does the whole thing, you know, they're trying to trap him and he says okay, great have at it the first one of you without sin Just heave away And I think you know, obviously they knew where she was. I think probably some of those guys had been with her But the beauty of that story for me is how Jesus is not ashamed with her He doesn't shame her and he doesn't do that with us He doesn't look at like oh, well, you deserve it. Look what you've been doing, you know that whole thing and And then in his in this the most beautiful thing. He just says hey Hey, just Go and send no more And I think that I really I believe a Jesus is not making light of our sin our sin is sin right It's just he doesn't let it define us and he loves us and says hey just Go and send no more Yeah, she looks into his eyes and for the first time she looks into the eyes of a man that doesn't look at her With anything but love in other words, he moved it from the kingdom of lust to love Totally, I heard a guy once a trial say that Jesus spent down and wrote down the names of other girls that all these guys have been with Could very well be true That's a good one, you know um But I love that picture you this gave of the of he he took their eyes off her He shielded her Well, let's let's look one dimension past that this is his daughter He crafted her body from the dust of the earth physically with his hands Wow Freckles wrinkles curves. Yeah, he made her He knows her better than she knows herself Then he pressed his lips to hers and breathed in the ruach of God right then made her living breathing soul He's not about shaming her. He's not about shaming us He's about our holiness and bringing us to the Father And condemnation has no place in that so I just love the way he deals with her Yeah, so good now such good stuff trials. Thanks for hanging out with me Thanks for giving me a chance to talk with you. I appreciate it. Sorry about a rough little start It's okay. That's my bad, but man. This is just great stuff Charles Lord bless you and everything you do and And you and your wife and and the things you've put your hands to Lord bless you and I hope I hope that this prospers and I hope some of these things get made into some really good movies Thank you. I appreciate that. Hey, man. Pleasure. We've been down that road. We've been down that road once. It was pretty painful Yeah, that's my back. Yeah, my background's media and marketing and films and movies and stuff My dad wrote books for men starting about 40 years ago wrote a book called Maximized Manhood And it's sort of launched a modern Christian men's movement and then After he passed away about five years after he passed away is where I stopped the business and sold everything we owned and Re-launched it So wow, yeah Good for you. Yeah, it's what to do you know if that's if that's what you're committed to then Are you committed to it or you just talking about it Right, you actually have reproduction is it all just going to stay masturbation No without faith it is impossible to believe in Yeah, yeah, anyway, Charles bless you man. Look forward to seeing you again soon Hey, I appreciate you. Thank you. Take care. Okay, brother. Listen All it's amazing to see the importance illustrated through Discipling other men and that's what you see in this book You know, they turned the world upside down. Yeah, it turned world upside down. They you know our world was turned upside down Yeah, actually, you know, so another way to put it would be right side up. Yeah Yeah, right. I mean they turned the world upside down, but then turned our world right side up exactly That's the 180 we all need Man, you know this guy a fascinating interview Charles Martin. Thank you for being with us Charles Powerful thing what at the mid break you said something you mentioned Subscribing yes, right and I think what if people will subscribe to the podcast doesn't that change our algorithms? All that stuff that we don't like to talk about. Yeah, it's real It gets us in front of more people puts us in front of more people. Okay, and And we have listeners now we've got guys in about 22 different countries that are listening to Brave men podcasts, which is cool And I mentioned a couple weeks ago One of the guys I met up in Portland who came to me and said man, this thing's really been powerful to me and and Our friend Bob at Firestone and Flagstaff will shout out for those guys. Yeah, and Different friends around the world that will write to us comment, you know all those kinds of things and in Comments help too, right? Yeah, like if there's interaction doesn't that help? And they'll give us suggestions to yeah, sometimes they're interesting We have had a few suggestions. I know a Monday night man when we do Monday night man I tap my pen a lot. Yes, you know, I do this this little thing on the table And I had some guy writing and said quit tapping your pen. I'm like We're gonna quit listening I don't know. I didn't really say I think we just wrote back God bless you bro. Yes But the fact is is that comments suggestions Even may be different guests to have on that stuff And then we've been on some other people's podcasts. Yes over this last few months has been Great, you know having And then going back some of the podcasts we've had Yeah, the podcast in a system that sometimes I want to call it a broadcast or I'll call it a media event. Yeah, because like Sometimes podcasts sounds wimpy. Yeah, is this sound? Yeah, yeah, I just say a show because I mean really That's what it is. I would never tell Joe Rogan his his podcasts is one piece Yeah, it's Mack. No, yeah, that's what we're good. Chaco. Chaco. I don't know man. Your podcast. I wouldn't call it But the fact is is that these things are life changing yes And that's what it's about cmn.men is the website you can find the tools and materials To disciple men and then going back. I'm thinking of Ryan Cooper all over north uh Gosh, we had you know Demario Davis some amazing guys on who really expand our life make us think Make us think about different things. Yes issues Yeah, things we're going through then we've done some teaching ones that then I think are very powerful Yeah, so we still got some May we got some stuff coming up. Yes, that's incredible. Yes, you know, I think uh, I think the one we did A couple of weeks ago last week when it was with dr. Shorone. It was powerful We ended up coming along with robber bariger on jesus and the book of revelation with jesus christ Yep, which always sounds spooky to most people. Yep, and jivon ruff. I'm excited about that dude killer. Yes, and so Thank you for being part of the brave men community. Thank you for being part of this It really doesn't mean a lot when we do hear from you. Yes, right things. Hit us up on Facebook or semen. Hey, Paul at semen dotman. Yes, right to us there. Yep, that goes to all of us. All right. Yes, Paul at semen dotman. Yep And for chris shield joy and webster Bruce robock Rob robock Ronda rebels and everybody part of the team chris Thanks for being with us today on brave men. Remember hope is alive. Hope as a name. Hope's name is Jesus. Jesus come on. You just experienced brave men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network Connect with Paul at semen dotman or write to him at Paul at semen dotman