BraveMen S3E82: John Cooper - Skillet - Awake and Alive!

John Cooper is an amazing musician. He's a singer, songwriter, and a lead vocalist on the bassist and co-founder of the Christian Rock band, skillet. Skillet, if anything, is bold. It is out there music, it's strong, and they have sold millions and millions of albums. The thing about John Cooper, though, that really attracted me to him, is not only is he bold in his faith, his humble in his heart, his appearance, the way he interacts, he could be a famous rock star, walk around with sunglasses in the dark, that kind of thing, and what he doesn't. He lives on a farm up in the middle of the United States and writes music, and then he wrote a book. And that's what really got me, because it's called a wake and a live to truth, a wake and a live to truth. When John Cooper did that, not only has his music always been on my radar, and it's some amazingly creative things, but when he wrote that, it began to really pull on me, because I thought, man, this guy is not just a singer, he's not just a guy on stage, wanted to be a rock star. This man really has strong faith, strong values. He is a follower of Jesus Christ, and he wants the world to know it, and he wants people to come to Christ. It's an amazing guy. And so when I got the book, and I began to read it, I thought, whoa, I need to meet this man. So we arranged a time to talk, and this conversation you're about to hear on Brave Men today is the conversation of us meeting for the first time. I was totally knocked out with John. He and his wife, Corey and family are fully engaged and bringing people to faith in Jesus Christ. You know, if you need materials and things, I know we're gonna do a little thing at the end, but if you need materials to help the Cypill men, to raise up a man like John Cooper and your own household or in the church you attend, you can find all those tools with Christian Men's network at cmn.men. And at that website, you'll find the tools and resources you need for your church, for your small group for your family to help you. We believe that when you build strong men, you build strong families. When you build strong families, you build strong churches. And strong churches are the hope of the world. And in fact, John and his wife very involved in their local church where in the area where they live. And there's just so many things that you need to do. And there's just so many things that recommend me to his music. And of course, the latest album that I've done is victorious. You're gonna love this thing. It's gonna enlarge you. It's for some of us. If you haven't listened to the skillet, it's gonna put some new things on your playlist, something you're gonna want. This is music for road trips. This is music to wake up with. This will wake you up. It's some amazing stuff, extremely talented. And it's great to have John Cooper today on Brave Men. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, Wisdom Encourage for the Journey. Talking about John Cooper and John is the lead vocalist bassist and songwriter for skillet. And skillet is just this huge music band but it's really more than that. It's really speaking into culture out of your music. And now a new book, John, you wrote a book that is awake and alive. And where did that come from? Yes. The book is called Awakened Alive to Truth. I think if I were to really rewind for the long version, since this isn't a seven minute interview, oh gosh, I just noticed that my computer is dying. I don't understand. I had it plugged in. No problem. Nice. It's been plugged in this whole time and the power strip was turned off. Yeah, that's how this is the real stuff. This is the real stuff. Anyway, so the long version is this. And I'll try to say it as succinctly as possible. 2012. I began noticing, well, the even longer version is I became a Christian when I was five years old. My parents are Christians. And I was lucky. I shouldn't say lucky. I'm a blessed to know God at an early age. Thank the Lord Jesus. And I've knew God ever since I was five. And passionate about preaching the gospel, evangelism, telling people about this great hope and Christ that I found, right? 2012 is when I really began to notice this crazy shift. People were saying things that I didn't understand. I didn't understand the language. And to some small degree, at first, I had wondered if it was just because I was getting old. I was like, is this just, are they just using, you know, new words changed? Yeah. Yeah, the language has changed. I'm not cool anymore. But I was like, no, there's, there's something else going on. And even inside the church. And so long story short, it began this search for me, not just to dig into the Bible, which I already kind of had a pretty good handle on theology, but I did begin to dig into the Bible. But I began to dig into a lot of other things like culture, philosophy, even atheistic philosophy, trying to understand where is this coming from? And after about three years, I really, I said to my wife, I'd read over a hundred books probably. I was just like studying like crazy. Yeah. The reason being, because it affected me personally, I had friends who were in the faith completely walk away from Christ. Wow. I had friends walk away from their families. I had a friend that was a minister who walked away from his wife and four kids, his pregnant wife and four kids into another romantic relationship. And when I confronted him, this is what he said. He said, yeah, but I just feel like this new girl was meant to be my soulmate. This is who God had for me. And I missed it before. And I said, wait a minute. I thought that we agree on the same Bible. How could this be possible? And after about three years of studying, I realized it was all coming down to these philosophies that are not just in the church. They are in the world. They are ubiquitous. And it is the way we view truth. Right. Not necessarily disagreeing. It's not just that we're disagreeing on what truth is. We are disagreeing on whether truth even exists. Right. And it is found in these philosophies of postmodernism and the life. So I wanted to write this book for people that aren't academic, people that aren't geniuses, people that don't have theology degrees, just normal people that are like what is going on? This is a guide to some of those philosophies and it gives you two paths. You can follow the worldly philosophies into death or you can follow the word, the eternal words of Jesus Christ into life. You know, yeah, in a book, you did that. I mean, you came out basically with two lead guitars, double drums, you know, Leonard Skinner. You came out with the bass going strong. I mean, this book just right off the front end. I'm reading it and I yelled across to my wife who's in the kitchen and I said, Hey, this guy actually is a Christian. This is, he's into this stuff. Somebody's, somebody saved in the, in the Christian entertainment world. This is nuts. He said, he actually did all these songs and all this stuff and he loves Jesus. It's awesome. Oh, that's wonderful. You know, I'm saying it because a lot of stuff that comes out is, is written by people who say, Hey, this and this is happening. We got to come out of the book. We got to come out with this. We got to do this. And you've got a whole different motivation. Let me go, let me ask you if this is a quick question. This is something that cracked me up because my oldest grandson has a problem with this. And that is that my oldest grandson Cameron does not have an inside voice. All right. He doesn't, he can't, okay, inside voice. He goes, that's what I was doing. And when I hear you sing and, I mean, even your ballad like Starzy, you guys did that incredible song for the shack for Paul's book movie. Even then, you're just like full on going for it. You know, is that some of your mom always had to tell you this? Well, I definitely am passionate. Probably one of the best, the best. Well, depending on who you ask, the best or the worst thing about me is probably I'm very convicted. I'm very passionate about what I believe. And I, that probably can be annoying to be around 24, seven. We can ask my wife, and actually don't ask her. I don't want to know. Yeah, it's probably a little bit annoying, but definitely, you know, let's just say it's when I read the testament, the new testament, the person I most relate to is John the Baptist. I'm like, yeah, that's the way it should be. That just makes sense. Slam on people, brother fibers, and you dedicated the book to your mom. And, the first chapter is, when you talk about being a, becoming a Christian five, it just wasn't like you had this little thing in Sunday school. You actually had, the Lord came and spoke to you. And in your heart, you accepted Christ right then. It's an amazing story. Yeah, you know. know it's, you know, and let me just put it this way. Sure. Very vulnerable, putting this in print in a book, considering the industry you're in. Yeah. I know, I know exactly what you mean. I did. I mean, I was so blessed. My mom was a Jesus fanatic. I mean, Jesus fanatic, okay? Embarrassed me at the grocery store talking to random strangers about Christ when people, you know, all they want to do is, you know, find out which, which squashes in season and my mom comes to help. I can help you show which squashes in season and talk to you about Christ and your internal salvation. And you know, everybody has seasons in life. And then, yes, do you want to be squashed by the wrath of God? No, no, I'm joking. Anyway, but my mom loved, loved Jesus and she loved the Bible. And she would read the Bible. I don't remember a time of my life when we didn't have breakfast reading the Bible. I mean, ever since I was two. So I was so blessed to be raised with an understanding that God created the world. And he made, he made everything that is made was made through Christ and was made for him for his pleasure. I understood that ever since I was a kid and I was a simple understanding, but that takes the worldview off of myself and it puts it onto this God. This is all for him. All this is for him. And so even as a young kid, I just believed that. And so when I was five years old, you know, I was in my room at night when I gave my life to Christ, no arguments, no, I just thought, yeah, that's, I felt a voice in my head if you will, however, people want to explain that. I don't know the right words. I just had a scent in my head of God saying, you need to give your heart to Jesus. And I said, okay, I want you to be my boss. And and ever since I was five, Jesus has been my boss, which of course means he's my Lord. He's not just my savior. He's my Lord. And that has been really the groundwork for, well, it's really the groundwork for the Christian life, isn't it? Yeah. Lord and savior. Yeah, be my boss. I absolutely love that because I could hear a five-year-old saying that, right? You know, in your right words, you know, be my boss. And that became, see, you know, you can argue and enhance theology and epistemology and all that, but you can't argue a man's experience. Yeah, I think it's powerful sharing, I do think it's powerful what you've been through. And and now I don't believe it's what you've been through is more powerful than the word of God, of course. We don't believe that, but understanding what you've been through saying, hey, this is how Christ changed my life. And this is this is how it lines up with the word of God. And he he will be your hope when you have no hope. You know, the Bible, the word God says that he is close to the brokenhearted. Isn't that wonderful? We can know that he's a refuge and a strength always present in your times of trouble. These are amazing promises that God gives us in the Bible and they're true. And I can tell you how they're true in my life. And I think that's a pretty powerful testimony. Talking to John Cooper and the book is awake in a life to truth. I just said awake and alive. And you were right. It's awake and alive to truth. In fact, you didn't you have an album or a tour that you did. Yeah, years ago, wake and we had a song. We had a song called Awake and Alive and the album is called Awake. So there's a lot of awake type stuff. Yeah. So I mean, so it's something you've been that's been working in your spirit. It wasn't just, hey, this would be a cool idea to write a book because if anybody ever gets that idea, once they start trying to write it, then they know this was not a cool idea. This is actually work. It's a lot of work. Yeah. I mean, in fact, I wrote the book and probably at least 13 countries because I was on tour. I didn't write it during COVID. It was 90% finished last December, a year ago or plus. Yeah. And I wrote it. Here's the interesting thing, or I think people, because you were saying that, you know, this is going out all over the world, right? Right. A lot of the deconstruction that is happening in within Christianity, a lot of people that are losing their faith and they're deconstructing and yada yada somewhere becoming apostate. What have you? That's not just an American phenomenon. That's happening all the way around the world. And as I was traveling, because we tour all the way around the world, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is happening in St. Petersburg, Russia. Oh my gosh, this is happening in Germany, in England, in Australia. And I want to say this, we were not playing churches. We don't play there. There's not like a Christian music scene in Russia. We just go and we play clubs, you know, we played with Metallica, we go, we play with Lincoln Park, we play with Aerosmith and Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden, we go and play with metal bands in Europe. And it's not just in the church deconstruction is happening on all of society. And as I began noticing, this is a worldwide phenomenon. It just broke my heart. And I see people's live that all of the foundations of their lives are being chipped away, chipped away, chipped away until there's nothing left to stand on. And then you're just thrown around. And so that is why I opened the book with the words of Jesus himself when he says, hey, there's a man who builds his house on the sand. That's like someone that hears my words, but does not act upon them. And they're building a house on the sand. And when the waves come or the storm comes, that house is going to be demolished. But there's also someone that hears my words obeys them. And he's like a man who builds his house on a rock. And I just was heartbroken that wouldn't that be wonderful in 2021 to build your house on the rock and be unshakable? Yeah. And that is what Jesus said. He said, I've told you all these things said the John recorded it. He said, I told you all these things so that in this world, you would be unshakable. And so you've got this little band called skillet, which is sold tens of millions of albums and got around a world Grammy Awards all this. So let me ask you a couple of things about that skillet. I know there's a history to it, but tell me what the history is to actually naming a band's skillet. Well, when we get started, we were a side project of several different bands. And we were, I mean, all the, no, the bands were heard of. We were a super group without anyone being super. Okay. So nobody never heard of the groups, but it was actually my pastor who was quite, he was very aware of the times, let's say he was very aware of the times, he was very aware of like what was happening. And he could see something in me that he liked. He could see something in a guitar player from a different band in the church that he liked. And he could see something in a drummer from something else. And he said, you know what you guys should do? You guys should start a side project and write a couple of songs because I think that you guys can have something special. And I was like, oh, sure, he was my pastor. Why not? And he said, if it works, you could call it skillet. It would be like taking all these different ingredients that are different bands and throw it into skillet. And he was right. We did. And within a few months, we were recording a record. And we were all stunned because I'd spent six years in the band that I was in prior to that, you know, work and work and work. And then we did this other thing that we didn't really work that hard for. And all of a sudden something happened. So he was really on to something. And so I never thought skillet would last this long. Never, never dreamt it. I thought skillet was like Southern cooking. Yes, it's absolutely. We're from Memphis. So yeah, absolutely, man, you know, that's what you do. You throw some more butter in and everything will be fine. It makes everything better. You just throw some more of that in. A little more salt. I think it needs a little more of this. Yep. So there's a little bit of this and grew up in Memphis. And of course, there's a big music scene in Memphis and in music background. Most people would know it because of Ellis Pressley, but the but it goes way back to Blind Lemon Jefferson and the Delta Blues and all that sort of stuff, if you will. But so there's a big music scene. And that had to have an impact. I would say though, you know, in reading your book, the biggest impact in your early life was your mother getting cancer. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Tell me about that journey. Sure. Yeah. I mean, as I said earlier, a foundation for my life was was really laid by my mom's teachings from the Bible. And since I know we have a lot of dudes watching this thing, which I'm someone very passionate about, I always want to encourage parents, especially men, what your role in the family is, you know, that your role is to wash what is it? Wash your wife in the word. I believe is what the scripture says. And to train up your children is such an amazing responsibility that God gives us. It's such a blessing. But my mom was the one that did that in my family. And so she just built the word of God into me. But something happened that we didn't expect when I was in sixth grade. I can't remember how old sixth grade is. It's roughly 10 or 11, I believe. And she got cancer. And it's just something that when you're a kid, you just, you don't even really know what that means. You know, I'm like, but what does that mean? You know, what's the worst thing that could happen here? Yeah, it just means mom's going to the hospital and coming back and forth and that kind of stuff. Yeah, exactly. Somebody give me a worst case scenario here, man. But you know, I think what happened with me was that it was a roller coaster for about three years. My mom went through chemotherapy. She went through, you know, like surgery at breast cancer. So she had surgery to, I think they called double whatever that's called. She had her breast removed, whatever that's called. I can't remember. Then she has to go through reconstructive surgery. She went through radiation. So you're in this, this house, especially back then, and the cancer treatment has come a long way since the 80s. But you're in a house with someone that is just, you can sense the death. You know, I don't know how to explain it. It smells like death. It feels like death. There is no hope in this house. But then my mom, amazing thing happened. She went into remission. And if I say, wow, the cancer's gone. And so my mom had a year of living cancer free. But then when it, when I was in eighth grade, it came back again. And it came back with a vengeance. And so my mom went straight again, chemotherapy several days a week. And my mom shriveled up into this little 93 pound walkman. And it was, it was a very brutal time. But my mom used to say to me, John, if the worst ever happens, you cannot ever be mad at God because God is good. And God works all things together for the good of those who love Christ according to his purposes. So you can't be mad at God. He's good. And but, you know, well, so on and so forth. She did end up dying. I was, I think 15 or 14 when she, when she actually passed away. And that was difficult. But the word of God held me. And, and, and, but that did become the hardest time of my life. And to, to be frank, with you, which I did not write in the book, tell you something I didn't write in the book, my mom's cancer wasn't the hardest thing. My mom's death wasn't the hardest thing. The hardest thing was that me and my dad began fighting. My dad got remarried two months after my mom's death. She had three, three kids. We had three kids. It was like the Brady bunch from hell. And I hated my dad. And I used to just be an agony from, from that relationship. And I used to pray. I remember praying and I didn't write this in my book because I don't, I didn't want the whole world. But, but it's important. And it's pertinent. I used to pray that God would cause my dad to physically try to hurt me so I could hurt him. I was 16. I was lifting weights. I was much stronger than my dad. By the time I was 16, I knew that I could take my dad and I wanted to excuse and I would pray God, please let him do something to me so I can do something bad. And that is what led me to the night that I was on my bed, which I did share in the book. When I just reached out and I said, God, I know you as a Lord and Savior, I need to know you as a friend. And I, and I again felt that voice in my head that said, yes, I'll be a friend, but I'm also going to be a daddy to you. Yeah. See, you, you book, but that contrast you're sharing right now about the, the angst between you and your dad. Yes. And frankly, two months after the passing is, is, yes, it's, that's brutal, man. Yeah. Because I, and I've got friends who've gone through a lot of different situations. And it seems like that if there's at least a year you know, in their stretch, it's like, I'll never forget a friend of mine who's a, I say his friend is a son of one of my closest friends. He said, you know, when his dad remarried, he said, you know, the thing is he said the other family, like when they found your dad, like he was their new hero. All right. Interesting. So now you're, you're the people coming in, the new wife and her kids have found their hero. But what happened to you is you lost your mom. Right. Interesting. Yeah. And that's what he said to me. He says, they found their night in shining armor. I lost my mom so that the contrast is huge and the psychological contrast is huge. How did that, how did that move into your music then? The interesting, did you begin to them really push yourself in the music from that point? You were athletic. You did stuff. Sure. That kind of thing. Yeah. You know, well, I think to even give a little bit of good news and a little bit of hope and excitement is, you know, that moment that I did, that I did pray that I can know God as a friend, which is biblical, of course, right? Jesus is a friend of centers. We're friends of God and not enemies. That's unbelievable, Bible truth. But also the fact that God became in that moment. He was already my father, but I didn't understand him really as a father. And when I began to understand him as a father, God began to work forgiveness in my heart towards my own dad. Isn't that awesome? And I began to realize, oh, this isn't, you know, after the years went on, this isn't just on my dad. I've done a lot of bad things too. And I need to ask forgiveness as well. So I just want to end people with a with a great news that me and my dad have a great relationship. My dad has a relationship with his grandkids. And this is something that only only God can do. He brings reconciliation within his own, his himself and with it, he has reconciled us to him, which means we are reconciled with each other. He brings healing. It's amazing. So that's the good news of that. It was, of course, a process. But God really, he proved the words of the Bible that he was close to the broken hearted. Yeah. That's right. Reconciliation. Reconciliation means to be reconciled back to what was right. And that's why racial reconciliation is an oxymoron. Reconciliation is always back to Christ. Yes. And if there's not a reconciliation to Christ, then nothing else happens. So when you reconciled your life, if you will, to our father. Yes. It's fascinating. We're God is male and female. And he's, you know, all the attributes of God. But when Jesus said to pray, he said, pray our father because everything in our lives is based on images. The most important thing you can do in a person's life is create an image. The second most powerful thing you can do in a person's life is tear down that image, which is what Satan did with his accusation of God. Did God really mean that? Did he really say that? What do you do? And, and so he gave us an image, the highest image that he could think of of who he was to us. He's our father. And a father, you know, when Paul said you have 10,000 instructors, but not many fathers, the key there is that, and he was talking to the church of Corinth, guys had gone through a lot of stuff, but he said, I love you like a father. Let me tell you, I don't love you like an instructor. You got 10,000 of those. I love you like a father. And quite literally what he met, John, was an instructor tells you what he knows, but a father gives you who he is. And, and that's what Paul was saying. And that's what happened to you. Then, then did you get into music right after that where you're already? Yeah, well, my mom was actually a piano teacher. So, yeah, so I began playing piano at about age five. I began singing. I think I sang my first solo in church at age four, which to answer your original question, my singing at age four was an inside voice, not announced, not my, not my now voice. But yeah, so I was always a lover of music. Yeah. But, but you are right in this to tell another interesting thing about my testimony. My mom was also what I would consider to be, and very legalistic. My mom really believed that rock music drums were evil. Rock music was evil. It was created by Satan and all the like. And so I wasn't allowed to listen to rock music. And it was the fact that my mom passed away that I was like, you know what, I can kind of do what I want now. And she was the classic church pianist. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. With a little skirt on the piano that dropped down in front of them when they sat. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, that's it. That's fascinating, man. You know, so that's gosh, what a journey though. It's kind of like, okay, this is absolutely tragic. Now in the other side, here's the hand of God moving in your life. And you're set free to go into some music that you never listened to or went into before. What were the biggest influences right then at that point in your life? I love, I loved Christian music. And we had had me and my mom had it out really bad in sixth, seventh and eighth grade during the years when she was sick. Because she wouldn't let me listen to Christian music. And it just made no sense to me. But in her, in her mind, Christian music was even worse than metal because it was wolves and sheep's clothing. You know, it was, it was like even worse. I'd rather you be a Satan worshipper than to be a Satan worshipper who pretends to be a Christian singer. So that was her idea. And eighth grade, this is a really hilarious story. Eighth grade petro was coming in town. Yeah. I adored petra. I loved petra. And my buddies were going, my church youth group was going, my mom wouldn't let me go. And you got to remember, this is like really like three years into my mom battling cancer. She's the doctors are saying you're not going to make it. And I'm like, I cannot believe you won't let me go to a Christian concert. So my mom ends up saying, you know what? I'll make a deal with you. I will take you to the petra concert. And when, not if when petra starts praying to the devil or when petra does any animal sacrifice, then we are going to leave the concert. And you have to go fight the head off of a bat. That's exactly what she believed. And so we went to the petra concert. And, and in the end, my mom made an exception. I still believe that Christian music is evil, but petra is okay. So anyway, petra was a massive influence on me. I've got lots of great stories. DeGarro and Ki, Brad, Michael W Smith, but also the metal, the Christian metal world was actually quite good white cross. There was a ton of great metal striper, of course, metal bands that maybe were pop, nobody knew about them, but they were quite good. And I had, they really fed my, my soul. And I learned a lot about the Bible from petra, by the way. Yeah, there were a lot of guys, you know, in that era, you know, coming out of, I was around kind of when it started, I was, I was in Calvary Chapel and there were 300 people there. You know, it was in the first time love song ever sang was a sound. They didn't even have a set of drums. You know, and so I go way back to that late 60s stuff and hate asparagus and all that. But, you know, watching the Jesus music come up was one of the most amazing things for me to ever see. And if you will, it was guys coming out of bands and getting saved and not knowing what in the world was happening. I remember a guy, I remember we sat down, we were producing a show just sort of in 1973 or 1974 and it was a guy named Barry McGuire. He was a friend of mine and we had a TV show we were doing his stuff and one of the guys had just gotten saved out of one of the big bands came in and he sat down and he goes, man, I've been reading this Bible thing. He said, he's reading the book of Acts. He goes, man, I think all these guys are going to get killed. Isn't this really bad? All of this stuff. And he's just, he came in totally bummed out. He's like, and so that was a lot of that scene. And out of that, if you will, second generation to Garnamon Key and you know, Greg X bowls and all these different guys that came out, it was no longer I'm trying to be like I was and just sanctify it. They were actually doing new things and that's what I appreciated about that whole era there that that and that's what I appreciated about Petra, you know, which means a rock. Yep. And and those guys and they had some strong beliefs. Everybody goes through their journey. You know, and and you did this. This is amazing to say it's in your forward of your book because all of these guys, and I think of when Russ Taft, when Russ Taft started, when he did medals and then the guys from Hollywood, who was a BM entertainer or something, they wanted to manage them and stuff. They're going to make a big deal and ended up being just a mess. Yeah. Because they didn't understand. We actually believe Jesus was the son of God. Yeah. We actually believe Jesus lived a seamless life. I have a funny story, but if you don't mind me jumping over what you just said, I'll tell you because since you're so involved in music, I don't know how many people even know who they are listening, know who all these bands are. But I'll tell you a funny story from Dana Key. So I don't know if you know because I'm from Memphis, Dana Key is actually who signed me. I don't know. Yeah. So I've got lots of funny stories about that, but I love to go on my own key. So Dana Key is kind of a mentor to me in a certain way, one skill, one skill it got signed. And I remember Dana Key talking to me one time. He said, so John, what do you want to do with this record? And I was a young passionate guy. Remember, I love John the Baptist and I said, Dana, I don't want to just sing to Christian people. I want to sing to people who hate Jesus. I want to go to clubs and I want to sing whatever. And at that time, I loved DiGarmoan key, but I didn't really understand the whole history of DiGarmoan key. I didn't know their history. I just kind of thought, how come Christian bands aren't quote unquote going mainstream? And I said, you know, I don't actually think that people will mind if I sing about Jesus. And I remember Dana Key saying something to me that I will never forget because he was a real soft spoken, you know, he, he, he always kind of seemed like he was half high, you know, yeah, he had that like laid back, you know, like he's just chilling out there, you know, Dana Key goes, John, you know what I believe? The world actually doesn't hate it if you say you love Jesus. But the world hates it if you actually live for Jesus. And I said, what do you, what do you mean? He's like, everybody says they love Jesus. He was really ethical. People love to hang around Jesus. Tax collectors love to hang around Jesus, prostitutes, drunkards, you, I think I can find you the most atheistic, sinful person in Memphis, Tennessee right now and say, do you think Jesus was cool? And they say, yeah, man, I think Jesus is cool. But if you actually say, I believe that Jesus is the only way truth and life that ain't cool. And that is stuck with me now for 21 years since he said great word of a mentor. Let me ask you then because you had you, okay, all of a sudden starts, stuff starts happening with skillet and we get back to you meeting your wife, but you had and it's a great story because it really is, if you will, the second temptation, right? See the world, Jesus said, I can do all this stuff and you had some people approach you and say, hey, you know, we can make you famous, we can do all this stuff, which you've always wanted in this sense of having a platform to keep your faith, right? And I mean, we're not looking, yeah, no, it's a reason I'm on Instagram is not because I think my photos are cool. Yeah, but it gives me the opportunity to share my faith with people that it may come across who need that word that day, right? So this guy, like he laid everything out and he said, but there's just one thing, John, right? Yes, there's this one thing, this Jesus stuff don't do that because that's exactly right. I think that that was, you're right, I wrote that in the prologue in my book. Yeah, it's almost like the story you have to read to understand why why even listen to me? I'm just another guy. People don't know why listen to me. Here's the prologue. The prologue is is that I want to do music. I love music. I want to I want the world to hear my music and not because I think I'm amazing, but because I want my message to get out to the world and but I do what I would like to be respected by the world instead of always being looked at as like the Christian cheesy, you know, the cheesy version of rock and roll. Well, all of a sudden, I'm here at this venue and this powerful person in the industry, the Kingmaker is saying, John, you guys have everything, everything you need to become what this is his words. I think you can become the next biggest band in the world in this year. Are you ready to do it? You have it all. The only thing is you've got to stop talking about Jesus and that's what he said to me word for word. And but here's what was more confusing. I want to give another category because this is what I think you're you were just alluding to. One category is deny your faith in order to become rich and famous. A lot of people have done that, right? Yeah. Just deny Christ and then get everything you ever want to know. I'm not a Christian. I'm not a Jesus. But he was even nuanced and he's saying, I'm not saying deny your faith. I'm just saying stop talking about it. Don't mention it. Don't just don't don't let that be a thing in order. This is his words in order for you to end up having a bigger platform to do good in the earth to do social justice. One of his other things he said to me was like, look, look at Bono. Everybody loves Bono. In other words, don't talk about Jesus. Just raise money for needy people in Africa, which of course, I think is a good thing to do. All of a sudden that that confusing word and that is a lot like what you said in the Garden of Eden, isn't it? Is that confusing word that come where the devil comes in and says, ah, did God actually say this? Maybe what he said was and then he comes in with it. And I shared that story to say that a lot of the times lies can sound a lot like truth. The best lies sound like truth. That's what they tell you. If you're going to go into undercover don't make up a whole brand new story that has no elements of truth. Use some of your own history. Use things that you are familiar with because it comes across as you believe it more. That's what the enemy does when it comes to robbing Christians of being effective for Christ. That's how he comes in. He says, hey, I'm going to tell you a little bit of this. It's not a hundred percent a lie. It's enough of a lie to steal joy away from you to make you not effective for the kingdom of God. The book is awake and alive to truth, finding truth in the chaos of a realistic world by John Cooper and talking with John. And you've got, you know, the book, The Band Skillet, you've got billions of streams online, sold millions of albums, all that. But you and your wife do this together. Yeah. And and you talk about, and people need to just go on YouTube. Guys who haven't seen you in concerts, something just pull up. Well, not, you know, you get some great amazing conceptual videos. But I think what's also compelling is some of your live concert stuff because talk about energy, bro. Right. Yeah. It's like, I don't know if you have a workout program that leads up to you. But your wife brings the same thing to it. You know, I saw one where she ran out of stage, got down her knees and leaned all the way back, back up and I'm going, that alone for me, just doing that one move. I would be like, I'm going to sit down for five minutes. Right. Yeah. You guys are doing this together. You and your wife, where'd you meet? Yes, we are so blessed. All of my friends are, all my band friends are jealous. They're like, I don't see my wife for a month and you get to have your wife on the road. We are really blessed. We met, let's see, my wife is from Wisconsin, which is, which is where we live. Yeah. My wife went to a year long, I would say kind of a Bible program type thing in England years ago, right at her high school. And she actually lived with a family who ended up after that year long program, that family moved to Memphis to pastorate church that I began going to. And so my pastor would say, Hey, there's somebody else your age that loves the stuff that you love, you know, music and evangelism and the other. And so that's how we met. We never thought we would be together. He never imagined we'd be together. He just saw, it's really cool that two young people have a vision for music like this because she's, she's intelligent. She's academic. She's an introvert. And I am everything opposite of those of those items. So he never imagined we'd be together. But what, what, some about it clicked, I think it was the passion for the gospel. And even though she's a lot more intellectual than me, honestly, but I am a communicator and she's not a communicator. And so something about it worked. And we're both passionate about sharing the gospel through the power of music. We both believe that God created music in some sense. I like to say it like this. You know, people always say, whatever you have here, you can't take it to heaven. You can't take your money to heaven. You know, you can't take your car to heaven. We're going to have music of some sort in heaven because we know that worship will go on and on and on. I don't understand all of that. But we all experienced the obvious power of music. There's something of the power of music. And there's a biblical, there's a biblical reason to back this up. You remember the story of King Saul when David was still a young man and King Saul's being tormented by demons. And they call for young David that we need an anointed musician to come and play who plays skillfully but is full of full of the power of God. And a young David comes and plays and it relieves the torment of the demons. I can't explain that theologically except to say that I believe when I put my guitar on and my wife believes when she puts her guitar on that we are going to war in the heavenlies against principalities and and powers of darkness. And I believe that the Holy Spirit is breaking chains over people's lives through the power of the Spirit through anointed music. For me music is the oil of the soul and when music happens because I think everything has harmonic waves. When music happens there's a harmonic that happens. It resonates with particular spiritual atmospheres. And the atmosphere of heaven is a harmonic. That's why the ocean and it's why all the earth you know the earth is humming. It's at 5.7 megahertz or 5.7 hertz. So the earth actually has a home to it. There's actually a resonance to it. And for me what music does is it opens the heart to the atmosphere in which the music comes from. So when music comes from the Holy Spirit through you through Seth through through the different people in your band. When that music happens to me it opens our heart because the music doesn't bring the presence of God. Music only only takes us to a place where it reveals the presence of God. Opens our heart. That's why in the 60s that I was involved in in San Francisco and Haydash bringing all this. Music was the was the tool of revolution. Yeah that's true. And I believe today that that music is the language of revolution. You know and and I think when we if you start really studying okay I don't get off into this but if you really start studying harmonics and and the circadian rhythms of the earth and the ocean being the heartbeat of God all those things then you realize that the establishment of the kingdom of heaven starts in our hearts. It's not outside external heaven. It's in our hearts and so I think your music is what opens us to that. And that's why we do music in church. We don't do music because it's just what you do. It actually opens us to the presence of God and the healing power of God in the same true. First what's the first day you ever took your wife on? Do you remember? Oh gosh no I don't to be honest. I think it's probably because I'd come up I'd come up here to to visit and to kind of just kind of get to know where it was. Yeah it was more of like a soft beginning as you would say. Like meet the family how's it going you know it was kind of like let's get to know each other and see if this is a thing. It was more probably that I came up here and had dinner with her family. That was probably more like the first date. What would have been like you know get to know each other see see what's up. So that's mainly what I remember. Yeah our first date in fact I've got the poster right back here. Our second date was to see cream. Oh nice. So that's good. That's better than what we did. Jack played now you play five string bass. Yeah. All right and he played five strings studio before string bass on stage. So you guys start meeting things start happening and what was there? Okay because you're the extravert. So basically at some point you go you know what this is working we should get married. How did that happen because it's not in any book it's not in your bio. Yeah it's funny you know especially Christians always want how do I know if she's the what how do I know it's what God wants you know everybody always wants that one thing yeah we'll do this and do this and turn around twice and and you'll know from God. You know it was one of those things when I just felt this is just my my understanding of a situation. God gives us in his word things that we should look for in a in a spouse you know things of character that we should look what what kind of person is she the things that should matter in a in a relationship if I'm called be married if I'm called to have kids then there should be a certain kind of a thing that I would be looking for in a mom you know frankly and so I was looking at those things trying to say the wisdom of God this found in the word and I just found Cory to be someone that was really into she's very passionate about godly character she she was very very passionate about you know it's not about gifting it's not about you know whatever gifts God has given you it's about the character that you have in becoming like Christ and I was really really attracted to that because to me that that's what it's all about you know what I mean to me what is attractive is someone that is not all about themselves right you know you can find a great looking woman and she can be the best looking woman in the entire world but it might just be the her entire world revolves around the way she looks maybe and I find that to be extremely unattractive and but what I was really attracted to and Cory to be honest with you is that she wasn't all about herself she didn't care about money she didn't care about what other people thought she just wanted to live for Jesus and I really just loved that about her and as I was praying I just felt you know what it's the wisdom the wisdom of my choice based on the wisdom of God in the word and proverbs of what a woman should be like right and I thought that was a really wonderful thing and it just became clear to me this is a wise decision so you said so one day you just said to her hey let's do this or I think that we both were we both knew on the front end we both had a similar let's say like this we both had a similar um philosophy on what Christian dating should be everybody's gonna have a million different I don't want to I wouldn't argue with anybody on here about what that should be but what I knew what I wanted to be for my life yeah was not playing the field I knew I didn't want to have a I dated ten thousand different Christian women and told them all I loved them and wrecked people along the way I had already done that in high school when I got serious about the Lord I began realizing I'd really hurt a lot of women and and I'm sorry a lot of girls because they weren't women we were high school and I don't want I want to I want my romantic relationships to be pleasing to God and in such a way that we can still remain brother and sister in Christ in the same church if that was in the same local church if that was meant to happen so we both knew on the front end hey we're gonna take it slow we're gonna be honest we're not looking to have fun we're not looking to kind of play the field we're we're both looking at each other like are you someone from here or not and so I think that that just kind of made it as we began to go we just had normal talks about it to be honest yeah that's fantastic and I really do pray that for every young man to find that person every young lady and us is moms and dads to be able to pray for your kids because you're already praying or you've got teenagers yeah so you're already praying that over your daughter who's the oldest yeah over your son and saying Lord the right person at the right time and guard their heart you know so this book that we're talking about and also you just came out of the new album just a few months right in the middle of COVID right yes it was actually a deluxe version with extra songs extra tracks from the album that came out last year we don't want to that you toured before okay which is victorious victorious that's a great title for for being in the middle of COVID it's going to get you through you we are victorious Christ is victorious and so yeah it's right it makes you feel uplifted in a world where we really need to feel uplifted yeah well it is it's here's my take on the music is it is strong okay it's not nobody back so John does not back off when this uh nor does Corey and then you wrote a book in the book I want to go through a couple things and then mention how do you hit one thing before we close but you hit on postmodernism relativism Marxism uh the absolutely stunning little chapter you did uh we don't worship love god is love but he won't worship love and that's that's what I I would call nuance and yet it's so important for people today to understand that because our shifting nature of values and then awake and alive to truth finding truth in the castle of a relativistic world awake and alive to truth and then that's John Cooper so can we where do we find that John Cooper calm is going to be on he is actually john l Cooper dot com uh slash awake if you want to go straight to the book about it's on my website john l Cooper dot com but if we go to john l Cooper dot com we can also go to your podcast correct right which is to find my podcast which is called Cooper stuff in which I talk about um culture and and faith uh talk a lot about culture actually cultural philosophies so we did end up delving into politics because it's impossible to talk about culture without politics these days right and um and and how that relates to the Christian worldview versus the worldview that that we're kind of being smacked in the face with all the time and how Christians can live for Christ in such a confusing time period and and I would say I think that the pinnacle chapter of the book as you mentioned is the chapter on love because that to me that is the biggest but one of the biggest things we're wrestling with in the church and and I borrowed it from a w tozer I'm a big a w tozer fan say he's a wrote a book that changed my life called a knowledge of the holy which was on it's the attributes of god I read it in college and it just changed me you know in a big way but he he says that he says yes god is love but love is not god you know love is not the overriding definition of everything that he is um uh you know love at the expense of all of his other attributes he is always everything that he is and that that was so helpful for free in college and now as you said you really see the undoing not just of America but of the American church from a misunderstanding of what that means so I really hope that this could help people who are young in their faith or maybe they love Jesus but they don't quite understand theology it's kind of basic theology in that sense hope it encourages people in their faith and all theology is is understanding god so it's a word it means that and you do you talk about forgiven and recreated you talk about idolatry yep I mean really go ahead out there but here's where here's where I want to finish up is is this and I want to pull this together in terms of what we do with brave men and our podcast with christian men's network and that is biblical masculinity and chapter eight you talk about Jesus the lion and uh and how we have in order to be acceptable if you will made Jesus soft yes he's sort of a limp guy one thing is then there's really not something we'd like written in our bios yes he's limp right yes that's definitely not what we want written in our bios right and and I think that when you hit that because you talk about love but being loving is not always being nice being nice not always being loving and you hit Jesus the lion tell me about that and where that came from you know what I love what you just said and I love that mission I think this is really needed so I'm really thankful that you're doing this and that people are people are watching get encouraged because it is a it is change the definition of what being masculine means and in fact I would say I would take it even further which I think probably part of what you're saying yeah I would say that secular culture is actually calling masculinity what will they call that toxic masculinity they would say yeah these things that that we have typically thought of as being masculine they're actually bad but the truth is is that they're not bad now can they be can we use them in a sinful way absolutely all right no man should assault a woman that is sinful masculinity but that doesn't mean that men shouldn't be strong there are times that men shouldn't be aggressive and then we can't stand firm so I think that there's a lot of different nuances there but I do think from a cultural perspective being masculine is out of style man it is way out of style and and we talk about Jesus the lamb but we don't know if we really like Jesus the lion and all all through the church but he is a warrior king right he's not just the lamb he is the lion and the lamb it's this amazing he's a warrior king and he has declared war against his enemies and so I don't know I just think that it's really we're saying to people that it's okay to say things that are true it's okay to tell your kids no don't touch the hot stove no don't go play in the street no don't speak with that kind of language in this house no don't treat your mother that way so on and so forth right and we get into all the other things in the world right now but we definitely have a culture that tells us we are not allowed to do that even in the church men need to be soft we need to be empathetic and and and every time a pastor says something true and black and white all these people come out to them to they want to basically feminize them they want to feminize them to say hey be nicer be empathetic and I think that that is a real mistake and and by the way you'd have to ignore tons of the words of Jesus you'd have to ignore Jesus in the temple with the money changes you have to ignore that they all the things Jesus said about about hell about if your eye caused you to send to be better to pluck it out so on and so forth you have to you have to ignore the fact that he beat up a bunch of guys in church a couple times there there's a lot we have to ignore and about the Old Testament about the things that God says are holy and the things that God says please him and so anyway I just I think that that's really worth saying because I do think there's a lot of people in the church who do love God and they want to live for Jesus they they're just confused and and I want to encourage them hey understand this loving God means loving Jesus the lion that's an important message yeah exactly I think and I think you did it brilliantly the book is awakened a lot of the truth I'm sure it'll be everywhere you get great books by the time we get this on the air and John you know it takes a lot to write a book takes a lot of effort intentionality focus you sweat blood if you will as a writer it is our our Gethsemane experience but I love the other side of Gethsemane is is that there's a resurrection life yes and I thank God for the resurrection life that's in this even when you write about stuff that's strong and you really going hey this is just the way the word says it you do it with a sense of respect and you know think about being a dad and when we talk about our father when we talk about Jesus the lion is it one of the things that dad does for his children is provide protection and a good name yeah and and you've kind of set that up and I really appreciate that John talking to John Cooper of the band skillet one of the best known most well-known bands in the in the world and also abandoned is performed by his Christians in the band so it's I try hard not to call it a Christian band because it's like a Christian movie which we don't we don't we don't go to but if it's a movie made by Christians I'm I'm in probably yeah you know like Spider-Man like Spider-Man the first one that was written you know the the treatment was written by some guys who were Christians and so you end up with scripture writing in the middle of the movie funny wow there's yeah there's a ton of followers of Christ in in LA and New York and Hollywood and the recording in Nashville and recording industry and sometimes I think what happens is we've allowed definitions to determine our style or our influence sure and with let the world redefine what Christian means and so we've got to redefine it again and I think that's what you've done with this book and John I just applaud you and your wife Cory and the things you guys are doing I pray as your as you raise your children their teenagers the Lord will bless you now I know you guys do a lot on the road so I hope this has been a great time this COVID time it's really kind of a family bonding time right yeah absolutely absolutely yeah so I mean we could talk for hours on this stuff we could go through your music you've got so many I could ask you why you did a certain thing in your video you know the one you did on monster why this image you know but they're fantastic so well done and I applaud you on that on your going after excellence at the same time going after excellence with a spirit and conviction that Jesus Christ is Lord and he is our hope and so we pray over you and your wife we pray everything you hands touch will prosper and everything place you put your feet will be holy ground and that God will keep you deep within the grip of His grace and favor in the days to come thank you for hanging out with us for a little bit on brave men and and again John L Cooper dot com and awake and alive to truth is a book and my advice and counsel to everyone listening is buy two or three of these books because you wanted in your own place but you want there's guy people you know who need it I know I'm a number of them for friends of mine and in the music industry and it it really does speak I kept waiting you know seriously I'm reading the book and going man this is good this is good this is good that I'm like okay at some point here he's going to come out with some freaky you know freaking omics would be good there's some sort of out there sort of thing yeah you know something from Jupiter you know you know and none of that happened I read all the way through it and get to the other one oh this sky loves Jesus oh fantastic well that's a huge compliment thank you so much for the support and I really enjoy being on the podcast and I just want to thank you right for listening yeah it's great talking to you John God bless you man good to meet you as well well thank John Cooper for hanging out with me on brave men today my name is Paul Lewis Cole and I am blessed to be the president and CEO of Christian men's network a minister it's in 134 countries around the world we are a human justice mission focused on defeating fatherlessness Indian child abuse and stopping the attack on the family we believe the power and anointing of the Holy Spirit changes men's lives from the inside out and when we change the heart of a man when we touch his heart we change the soul of the nation we believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life we say so often Chris who's our producer and Bruce and Jesse and David and all the rest of us on our team hope is alive hope has a name hope's name is Jesus and we believe that and that's why we do brave men every single week please do this for me would you would you go on the wherever you're listening to the podcast would you hit subscribe on there hit the subscribe button that puts us in front of more people because the algorithms when they see more people subscribe they put you in front of more people seems like a bit a little bit of a catch 22 but that's the way things work so thank you for being a part today of brave men you can find all our tools and materials and resources at cmn got men that's christian men's networks cmn dot men for all the men of the christian men's network in over a hundred nations around the world i just want to say god bless you and everything you're doing today for those men that i've talked to in the last few months who have come up to me at different places and settings and said hey thank you for the podcast i just want to tell you thank you for the affirmation and let's stay in touch let's do this thing together let's be a brotherhood that changes the future of the world because we are sold out like john kooper we are awake and alive to truth and we are followers reckless with reckless abandon oh jesus christ thanks for being a part today of brave men on paul louis col remember hope is alive hope has a name hope's name is jesus you just experienced brave man with paul louis col paul is president of the christian men's network connect with paul at cmn dot men or write to him at paul at cmn dot men