BraveMen S3E64: Justin Camp - From Wall Street for Bucks to WiRE for Men

How does a man go from being a Wall Street lawyer to writing inspirational Christian books for men? We're going to find out today when we talk to Justin Camp, who's writing the Wires series for men. I first found him on the internet with his Wire for Men Devotionals, and then found out there was so much behind it. This is really a great conversation. I'm joined today again on Brave Men with Chris Shields, who's our co-producer and co-partner and crime, and you know, doing Brave Men, we have met some of the most amazing men. Yes, we have. And Justin Camp, I saw him a long time ago on the internet and followed him, and then was like, man, I want to talk. I want to meet this guy. Yeah. Well, how do we meet the people we want to meet? We invite them to be on Brave Men, when we get to meet him, yes, which is awesome. You know, it's kind of like I wanted to meet Steven Mansfield for years, and so I figured I didn't have a mutual friend, and so in order to meet him, I went ahead and booked him to speak at our global conference. Wow. They were going to come friends. And Justin's the same way. Justin Camp and his wife have gathered ministries, but it didn't start there. It's a fascinating story, Chris, how he was a Wall Street lawyer. He's got a little Cali swag to him, though. Oh, he does. He does. His wife grew up in Northern California, which is where I grew up one time, but he's got that thing. Yes. You think that's UCLA? You think that's UCLA thing? It is. It is. It is. Yeah. Cali just has that. Cali's got the thing. You know, it just has that swag. And you can tell. Cali people can tell Cali people, even if you're not living there anymore, you know, it just has that attraction. And that's you. That's your deal on you. Yes. That's what they tell me. That's what they tell you. Oh, people spot you and go, oh, hey, you must be from Cali, you must be. But you're not a surfer, but you're still from Cali. Oh, man. Yeah. This guy, but this is a fascinating thing, and he's written a number of books. Yeah, he is brilliant. And he wrote this book, Odyssey, we'll talk about, which is a beautiful story that he's written. And his stuff's been, you know, all over the place. I mean, all kinds of media outlets and, and, but he was a Wall Street lawyer. This is what's amazing to me, University of Pennsylvania, Wall Street lawyer, then he moves out to Silicon Valley, becomes a venture capitalist, and then through a really unique spiritual journey, he starts writing inspirational things for men, which becomes that wire series. Yeah. But I mean, even in his bio, I love how he says he loves traveling, and he loves getting lost in new cities. And that speaks a lot to his journey, you know, his spiritual journey, he, he stumbled on, you know, writing, you know, and then all of a sudden he uses that to inspire other people. It's amazing, you know, a lot of creative, creatives, you know, they stumble on things. It's like, I didn't even mean to do that, you know, and all of a sudden it starts taking off. Well, it's, yeah, it's the journey thing, and it's, it's a guys who search, guys who look, guys who have their eyes open. Yes. So I was just laughing about how being lost in new cities, and I was thinking about you being lost in cities where you actually live, shh, that was a secret, it wasn't a secret. Anyway, it never happens too often, you know, but that, that does happen to me too, because I think part of it is, my wife, you know, Judy, she travels to places like the school's shops, malls, whatever, so she knows all the little streets. I go to the gym, right, back home, to the airport, to travel, to places where I eat lunch with friends, breakfast, coffee, here's my coffee, I know those routes, I don't know the other ones. See, and in my defense, I know the routes of walking, because you put me in new cities I've never been in, like New York, DC, San Diego, and I walk, like I can tell you, we go to New York, you know, I walk, I can take you somewhere by walking, but if we try and get in a taxi or something, I'm like, I don't know what the street is, I just know how to get there in directions. Is that a spatial thing, or is that, I think, honestly, I think it's just being aware of feeling, of feeling, you know what I mean, like, when you get to car, you don't see the same things, you don't see the same things. You don't catch the same feeling, you don't catch the same moments as when you're walking, you know, what's there to do with Justin Camp? A lot. Oh, it does? Yes, because he likes to get lost, and he's walking through life. Okay, this is fantastic. He's a journey guy. We brought this totally back around, Justin's going to be proud of us, because he is, he, this is a man who ties up, loose ends, and I love his writing, I love the adventure in his writing, and yet he always brings it back to a particular point, and I'm so excited to introduce you to our new friend, Justin Camp, here today on Brave Men. This is going to be awesome. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. We're talking with Justin Camp, and Justin and his wife, Jennifer, have wired for men, and Luke for women, and the ministry is called Gather. Justin, I've looked at your stuff for years, and I thought, this is just incredible stuff. If guys haven't seen it, I want them to go into it. You have a weekly, twice a week you do this devotional for men. You've got the coolest looking Instagram stuff, man. I am in a very holy way, jealous, if there is that kind of thing, but man, this didn't come out of some sort of like you grew up, went to Bible college, you and youth group thing, and all that stuff. You had an absolute encounter with God that pivoted your life into doing this amazing ministry of mental over the last eight or nine years. What happened? Well, I'm just super excited to be here, and thank you for those kind words. Yeah, so I grew up in a house where God was definitely present. We went to church every week, and that kind of thing, but my mom had a faith that was authentic. My dad was kind of riding on her coattails, but her face was a guy, and I didn't know it at the time. I just thought it was normal, but it took getting out into the world a little bit to look back and see how important that faith was. She prayed a lot. There are still women, little old ladies will come up to me and say, grab me by the lapels and say, I know everything you did in high school, and say, I was praying for you, man, we prayed so many hours with your mom, it's really so my mom was actually, I'm getting off the subject. But what you did, see, okay, so there's the blessing you were, you gave her a prayer ministry. It's like a big one, a blessed son. So she was diagnosed with leukemia when I was 12, and I think I've spent my whole life trying to up until about the last five years, trying to kind of say, oh, it's normal. It didn't have that big of an impact. Sure, everyone goes through hard stuff. Well for me personally, I think human beings are fragile enough where that kind of stuff just really leaves an imprint, and it did, and so she was sick for nine years and passed away when I was a freshman in college at age 21, and it was quite a nine years. It was ups and downs, you had two bone marrow transplants. There was lots of waiting rooms, tons of tests, good tests, bad tests, blood counts up down, you know, and it was just, it was a wild ride and not a fun one. So those years where she was praying for me, and she had all those friends praying for me, they had stuff to pray for, I was, you know, it was a misspent youth. Luckily for me, there was the California Community College system, and I barely graduated from high school, and started attending college at various schools, and in the Bay Area, and then down in San Luis Obispo, on the Central Coast in California, and kind of pulled out of the nose dive that I was in, ended up going to UCLA, meeting my wife there, and thought I wanted to go into politics at that point, so I studied political economics. Yeah, yeah, so there, I was still, you know, I'd find my way to church, you know, I was going to church on my own, usually mostly on my own, once I met my wife, we'd go together, but, but I was, I was just listening to the drum beat of culture at that point. Well, you've taken a polypsych course, what are you going to do with that besides going to politics anyway? Yeah, so my dad kept telling me, what are you going to do with it? Anyway, so in other words, polypsych really is like the rebellious kids, the really good kids, or the rebellious ones that are like, you know what, forget all you guys, I mean, you're going to take an English major or polypsych. Yeah, that's right. I was, I was definitely the rebellious side. Yeah. Isn't that so? So let me go back to you a quick, Justin, right on this journey. So you're in high school, you lived on the West Coast, Silicon Valley area, right? And so when we talk, when you talk about culture and things around you, you are in the middle of a really vibrant, the whole San Francisco thing. And that whole moving hip, whatever you want to call it, serve culture, the whole, everything comes together right where you grow up. So you had opportunities to just totally stand. Yeah. What was it that kept you? I mean, but you end up going to college and this is a fascinating to me because you didn't have to do that. Yeah. Something was still holding on to you. You know, honestly, if I, I look at the friends that I had growing up during that time, a couple of them are no longer around, no longer living because of stuff that they got into, mostly drugs during that time. And I don't know, I think that, I think, honestly, I think that intercessory prayer that my mom engaged in her friends. I think it, there are so many times where I feel like I was in a situation where I could turn right or I could turn left and eat, and I saw my friends turning left and I would go, you know, I'm good. I think I'm going to head home, you know, and I would turn towards wholesomeness, you know, world that was not, did not have a lot of wholesomeness. And I was not, you know, I was not doing this consciously. I would just make these turns. So I'm a, I am a huge believer in intercessory prayer. I don't think it had much to do with me, honestly, I think there was divine protection. My dad one time said, he said, you know, I ran from God, but I couldn't outrun my mother's prayers. Oh, man. I, I, she, that is, that is very, very well articulated for my life, I think, without that, I think. What would you call testimony and legacy? Yeah. I mean, and your children are living that legacy, right? Three caps. Absolutely. You know, we have a 14, 16 and 18 year old who are absolutely living that in the, in the shadow of all of the, you end up needing Jennifer down at UCLA. She's there. Where is she from? So she grew up in a little almond farming town north of Sacramento, a town called Arbuckle. They're probably, I don't know, 200 people there. It's all, it's all almond farms. Well, but in Arbuckle, it's called Amons. Amons, that's right. Yeah, I know that because I went to elementary school in Chico, California. Okay. There you go. Yeah. So it's the only place in the world they call them Amons, which is where they grow them. It's a lot of almonds. Assamely, man. So she grew up there. You guys need UCLA. Yeah. And I was head and off to politics. So I had done some internships. We actually, the, actually, the place where we met was in Washington, DC. I was doing an internship and she was doing an internship when her roommates, my roommates, and I was very, very focused on politics. And so decided, well, if I'm going to do that, I should go to law school first. And so we got married, loaded everything we had into a U-Haul and drove across the country and spent three years in Philadelphia while I was going to law school. She worked as a high school English teacher first as a sub and then as a full-time teacher. And then we switched and I went to go work for a Wall Street law firm in New York. We were living in Manhattan and she went back to school. So she got a graduate degree and had just the time of her life. I mean, you know, living in Manhattan, not having a lot of academic, you know, responsibilities and she just had a great time, museums and restaurants. I was, I pretty much saw the subway, my pillow and my desk. Exactly. Yeah, but you did the right thing. So then you moved back to the West Coast. Yeah. We moved back. And you're doing business now. Yeah, I did 15 years with my dad investing in high tech startups and I thought that. So there was a lot of discontent work in New York. I loved the people I worked with. It was, it was exciting work. But I could tell Monday mornings were not a lot of fun. You know, I'd get up and I'd just be like, what's, what's going on? Like I, this is the job I wanted, you know, this is like going and all of a sudden it's like not satisfying. Yeah. And it wasn't huge then, but it was enough to be on my radar screen. And so this is 99, 2000 when we moved back here. So the internet, you know, bubble wasn't full, full swing. And so we got back here and and it helped a little bit. You know, I think the, I think the work was better and I was working with my dad, which was really fun. I got to walk with him through, you know, some of the hardest times in his life when you lost my mom. I mean, we became, we became very, very close. So I thought that was kind of the answer. And then I just started noticing that familiar sadness building and it was very, very incremental. So every day I was a little bit more, a little bit more after 10 years, I was drowning in it. And so finally made my way to a, you know, men's group, Jennifer and I were leading some couples groups. We were involved in church. We were doing some mission trips, we were leading some mission trips and stuff like that. I've noticed you guys have been a number of places around the world. Yes. We have. So now, okay, let me, let me fit right in here. So now you're going to church on a regular basis now. You're involved. You're doing mission trips. How did that pivot point happen, Dustin? You know, I think it was, you know, I mean, look, my faith was because, because of, you know, from year, year, my age 12 to 21, I needed something to grab onto. I needed something real to hold onto because the foundation of my life was shaking with my mom with this, I took it as a, as a 12-year-old, I took it as a, as a pronouncement of death on her life. Like, I, I think I look back and I knew in my, I just said she's going to die. And if I can't have a mom, then I'm not going to need a mom. And so I got really tough and, you know, and started saying, you know, I'm not going to need anything from anybody. And which is just a, you know, a farce and a, you know, ridiculous statement, but something that I tried to live out. But the one thing that did feel solid was my faith and it was really as borrowing my mom's faith and watching her, you know, be, you know, you know, face this horrific illness and hold on to this, you know, just joyful, you know, relationship with God. And so I think I did as well. And so when we came back here to Silicon Valley, we were certain to have kids. We knew we were going to go, you know, be a part of a church. And I don't know. We just started kind of digging in and, you know, like I said, we were leading some couples groups, we were leading some mission trips, but I was isolated. I was like, most men out there, nobody knew me really, you know, and so I had some friends who were in a men's group and it was a real deal men's group. And they invited me one night and it was a cold January evening and I limped over to this place and said, fine, I'll go once. And I showed up and these guys were talking about pornography and alcohol addiction and they were talking about everything that nobody talks about. And I was terrified and it was an enormous injection of life into my life. And so I was like, I can't not, you know, come every week. I have to be here, but I'm terrified because I've never lived in a transparent way. I've never let other men know who I am. You know, what I'm afraid of, what I'm struggling with and all that stuff. So that took about a six month period of just like grinding and just saying a little bit more, a little bit more, a little bit more so that they knew me a little bit more until I finally, you know, there was one night where it was actually was not an evening. It was just a time where another guy and I got together and I wrote out a list of everything that I had never told anybody, never confessed, all the unconfessed sin in my life starting it from the beginning when I, everything I could remember. And it was a, again, just terrifying thing to do, but just wonderful when it was done, you know, and so that was the first time I started living in a transparent way. And that starts having a massive impact on who you are, you know, and there's a lot more freedom and a lot more fearlessness in my life. I wasn't, I was starting to disengage from that listening to the drum beat of culture. I was starting to start pull away and God was starting to speak to me through scripture through sermon through conversations with my friend through silence for the first time. I, you know, I would get a sense of what he was up to in my life and identity was coming in, you know, and all these things, you know, became clear of like, oh, that's why I made that decision and that's why that didn't go well, but that one did go well. And so these guys were speaking all this identity into me and, and then, you know, at some point, you know, that those discussions about identity turned into a change of career. So it really came through those guys. I was at a, I was at a, I was at a point where I had to make a decision, am I going to keep, you know, in the venture capital world and keep investing in high tech companies? And my heart, that discontent was up around, he, around my eyeballs. And so I couldn't get myself to do it. I couldn't get myself to raise one more fund. And so I, in almost desperation, I hijacked the men's group when I said, hey guys, you got to help me here. And I talked for about 45 minutes and then turned it over to them and said, what do you think? And, and, and two of them, two, two good friends looked at each other and said, whatever you do, you need to be writing because they had heard me talk about writing. And it wasn't even on my radar screen. Wow. And my first reaction is, I can't make any money doing that. I can't support a family of five here in Silicon Valley like that. And one of them just looks me right in the eye, catches my eye, just looks me in the eye, wait until I'm looking right at him and he goes, I think you shouldn't worry about that. And it just felt like the Holy Spirit speaking right to me. And so I, so I said, okay, and it was the best news, it was, it was scary, but it was the best news I could have gotten. And that discontent has been just leaking out of my life like a, you know, like somebody pulled the drain in a, in a bathtub, you know, and I love getting up on a Monday morning now and doing what I'm doing now. I'm talking with Justin Camp, Gathering Ministries and the outworking of which is wired for men and loop for women. But you've also written a couple of books and I think there's a third in the trilogy. It's just like a, I'm working on the third right now. Yep. We're going to third. And is that the first part of a nine part trilogy is not the way Star Wars went? So I wanted to call it a trilogy. I think what God put on my heart was three books. The folks at David C. Cook who are publishing it made me call it a series because they said, you know, we may do another one, you know, I, I have no idea. We'll see what God has. So it's more like speed. It never ends. There's, there's always another movie. Exactly. And so, hopefully not, hopefully not. So no, but there should be, right? Because that's what you do. Writer's right. You know, my kids, we all played basketball and our deal was always shoot or shoot if you're a shooter. You shoot. I will never stop writing again. There was about a 10 year period where that I'm describing when I was investing in companies where I didn't write. And it was a dry period for me. There will, there will never be a time where I'm not writing. I just don't know if it'll, there'll be another book in this series, but there will be something. There'll be something. Absolutely. And, you know, my encouragement is going to be, you know, stuff that fits in that, not just books, but stuff that fits in that world that you know, which is, you know, whether that's mango or, you know, or stuff on the internet or movies or whatever, right? I just think, you know, again, my one of my mentors, teachers, Dennis Peacock says ideas have consequences. And I love your stuff, I love the clarity of it. But invention was the first book, second book is Odyssey, just came out. Yep. And so in fact, they sent me, they sent me the pre copy that doesn't have any endorsements. So when you open it up, it says endorsements and then it's blank. Oh, well, that's okay. That's fine. But the stuff you're doing, the resources you have, the devotionals. So you can go to gatherministries.com and then wired for men is your IG handle. Just all one word wired for men. That's right. And then is there a wired for men.com? Is that? Yeah, yeah. That's the landing page to get signed up for the email devotional for the emo devotional which is twice a week. Yep. And then, but your Instagram, your IG comes out what I know this is pretty much the early, right? Dennis, yeah. And then, uh, so, and I just, I'm telling you, man, I just dig all this stuff. And so everybody who's involved with us, Christmas Network and listens to Brave Men, go on there, sign up for it. Uh, you got a hundred, over a hundred thousand men on the devotional's, all kinds of stuff going on, gatherministries.com, Justin Camp. And, uh, I, you know, I told you right before we went on, but I've been following you for, like years and since your public and Instagram, it's not like stocking, it's different. Now it's following, it's just, right? But let me ask you something. You talk about these guys gave you identity, which is what your first book is about. What does that mean, Justin? So we looked at identity from a lot of different angles and that's what's in each chapter of invention is it, you know, identity is there's anything with God, but especially identity, there's so much mystery, right? We can't know everything, but if we look to scripture, if we look to, you know, learn about spiritual gifts and calling and the ways that we were uniquely wired to connect with him, you know, we're not all wired to get up early and read the Bible, you know, some of us are wired to connect with him mountain biking and some people are wired to, you know, connect with him in deep study, you know, and so I think it's really important to spend this time to gather as much as we can now. And when you do gather it into one place and you look at it and that's one thing that invention helps you do is it really kind of leads you through these, you know, kind of exercises to ask who am I from a lot of different angles and then puts it all into one place and you start seeing common threads and you go, wow, I don't know everything. I don't know much, you know, compared to, you know, what God knows, but from my perspective, I know a lot and I can, I start making some decisions in my life that are, that just, you know, are the, you know, as a son, as a son of God, rather than a son of this world. And so, yeah, I mean, we started, we were looking at it from, you know, looking at detail at our journeys and say, you know, helping, by looking, looking backwards, helping us to look forward, you know, what have we been prepared for? What are, what is our situatedness? Like, who, who have, where do we have authority in our lives because of things that we've gone through? And then we looked at spiritual gifts and we look at calling and, you know, and all the, all the sort of, you know, every chapter is something different, but it's really that process that those men, you know, took me through with, you know, a lot of just sort of, you know, working it out, you know, in conversation and prayer with brothers as well and saying, hey, look, this is who we see you. This is, this is, this is how we see you. This is what's true in you. This is your impact on the world. This is the God's glory working through you. That kind of stuff is super rare, but so powerful for a man. Yeah. So really is, you know, Colossians one in the message says, fasten yourself to your future. I like to. That's, that's really what most of us don't have because we've, we've been created by the lyrics of our context. Yeah. And, and kind of the way we say it, Justin, it was seeing men as identities, the story you tell yourself about yourself. And for most men, that soft talk has lyrics other people put in there. And it's, it's impure and it's messed up. And you talk a lot about distraction too. Tell me about that. How do you fight? Because I mean, we live in a, this, this sensory overload world. We have empathy overload, right? Because now I'm just totally freaked out about the animals that died in the fire in the outback. Right? I can't do anything about it. I got empathy overload. I got distraction to how do I, how do I navigate this thing? Because you talk about that quite often and a number of things that you do. You know, so the, the, the premise of Odyssey. So the premise of invention is, you kind of, who am I? Who did you create me to be? And what did you create me to do asking those questions of God? The premise of, of Odyssey is, is, is, is a little bit different. It's sort of, it's kind of the answer to all questions. And the answer to all questions is, we need our dad. We need our heavenly dad. I mean, if I need to deal with distraction, the place that I should go is, you know, hey, God, hey, Jesus, what, what, how do I deal with this? Like, this is, this is too hard. And I feel like those, those, you know, if we're living in culture and culture is just like berating us with messages, a lot of them negative about us and all intended to take us off track and to have us having his orphans. Yep. You know, and, and we go to God and say, hey, look, this is too much for me. This is too much for one man. And he goes, I know, that's why we're supposed to be a father and a son, always a father and a son. And so the way I deal with distraction as I do it together with him. And so, Odyssey is all about the journey that we all have to take. You know, this happened so many times in scripture where there was a physical journey, certainly spiritual journeys. And, you know, I mean, in our day and age, they can be both. I, I have been on a physical journey that turned into a spiritual journey. I've been on, you know, a spiritual journey that was mostly done at home, but had some times of retreat and had some times of, you know, recreation and some times with friends and where God was orchestrating something larger that had a point to it and it had a season to it. But all of it is to go meet him somehow. To meet him, quote unquote, in the wilderness, like, like Jesus would do, he would pull away and go to a solitary place and connect with his dad. And so that's what, that's what Odyssey is all about. It's about pilgrimage and sacred journeys. And it's about doing it with, you know, for men who have bills to pay and, and houses that are bursting with kids, you know, like we can do this now. God understands where we are and yet he wants to take us on a journey to meet him. And so, distraction, like I live in the Millicilicon Valley. This culture is ways heavily. I see it on my kids. I live in a way that is much more light that where culture touches me a lot less than it used to. Why? Not because of anything I did, but because I spend time with him. And I don't do it out of obligation. I do it out of desperation. But I would say it's started with desperation and then Holy Spirit gets India a little bit and then you're like, I want a little bit more and I want a little bit more and I want a little bit more and those, those distractions start, you know, taste them a little bit different, feeling it a little bit different, you know, and you're like, yeah, I don't really want that anymore. Now, I'm not saying that I'm all fixed. No question, I'm just broken as anybody and still yelling at my kids and still, you know, still staying stupid things and not treating my wife the way I should. But I'm working really hard and, you know, and God is in all of it with you. Yeah. Hey, this is Chris. I want to take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to let you know that the Brave Men podcast is a production of the Christian Men's Network worldwide and the Global Fatherhood Initiative. Christian Men's Network has helped pastors and leaders disciple men for over 40 years. You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmin.min. That's the Christian Men's Network at cmin.min. Christian Men's Network has a YouTube channel with inspirational videos. There you can find the innovative new study Monday Night Men. When you get there, make sure you click subscribe. Monday Night Men is a fresh resource for men and pastors. As a pastor, you can follow up the 30-minute study with a digital meetup with your men for prayer, discussion, and teaching. Some churches are using the videos as part of a group meeting. As an individual, enlarge, energize, and build a strong mindset. This 13-week study will be on YouTube and Facebook. Get your books and materials at cmin.min. That's the Christian Men's Network at cmin.min. Stop what you're doing and take your phone, tablet or computer and like us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram, and follow us on Twitter unless you think you will lose the podcast in that case, make yourself a note. That is Christian Men's Network or Paul Lewis Cole. Now, let's get back to this powerful interview between Paul and Justin Ken. You live in an area that I grew up in and one of the beautiful things for me is north of Santa Cruz is how the trees come right down into the ocean, man. Oh, yeah. Amazing. So I often think of all those things and I think of men as like trees that we tend to fall the way we're leaning. I think that for me, you're talking about when you're talking about getting rid of distraction, it's like a simple, but it's not simplistic. It's minimal, but it's not without complexity. I love that. Here's the other thing I love about what you were talking about. I love that whole picture and that feel and that texture of that, but what always hits me is the the day that Jesus started his ministry. Like he does the cana thing, you know, the wedding thing and the water, the wine deal and all that. And then like, I don't know, it's hard to tell exactly, but maybe the next week he moves to by a lake. If you've ever been in the azure, it's a truck stop. It's basically on a trucking. Yeah, you have, right? Well, so you know, it's on a trucking path, but he moved to Perian like quick, which means place of quiet, right? Even though they cut a hole on his roof one day. But other than that, you know, I mean, Jesus did that. He was in the world, but did these retreat things where he would pray and spend time. It's pretty remarkable that we think we don't have to do what the Messiah did, right? Right? Great news of all of that is that it seems like it seems like too big a task to do what Jesus did. Yeah, there you go. It seems like too big a task. But again, we're not doing it alone. Like all we need to do is bumble towards it. Like you say, you fall, you fall the way you're leaning. It's just fall a little bit. He's a good catcher. Like he he'll sit there and go, here, here, I'll magnify your bumbling efforts and I'll magnify it in your life and in lives of the people that you touch. And all of a sudden, you're like, Whoa, this is massive. And I barely did anything because grace, we have the most powerful force in all the universe, the creative force flowing through us, living inside us. You know, and so when we fall, when we mess up, when we try something and just bumble through it, amazing things happen. Maxwell, John Maxwell has that book, Failing Forward. You could do a bumbling forward. Okay, if you're giving you an idea, you need to write that down, Justin. But what the fact is, I've got a friend in Lima, Peru, Robert Baird, or those who were friends of mine know who he is, amazing ministry went, he was a surfer in Huntington Beach, actually just north of that coast. And and went to the jungle in Amazon, two little kids and his wife. And now they have impact, they have hundreds and hundreds of churches that look to them for leadership across South American, Latin American stuff. You know, but the thing is we were talking about the other day and we were talking about growth and they they've had such amazing response during the COVID time online in a country that's not online. There are people who had to learn, but he said, I don't know how to do what a lot of these guys do, but I can plot P.O.L.O.D. Yep. He took that from what was the guy's name? I don't know if I remember the guy who opened China for the gospel. And he people were concerned he was not many results and he said, I'm just going to keep plotting. So I don't know what else to do to carry the gospel, keep walking. And that's what Robert said, I can, you know, I don't know how to do all the stuff that all these guys did, but I can plot. And I think that, you know, the beauty of Odyssey and carrying the God of Heaven and escaping the surly bonds of this world isn't about escaping this world. It's not a escapism. It's about not being, it's Romans 12, too, not being locked into the mindset of this world. Right. And I think, I think, you know, the enemy of, you know, the scripture says a number of times that the, you know, the ruler of this world is, is the enemy is the evil one. And so this is a culture that is relentless. And we get taken out if, if, if we get locked in like you say, but we get, we get free from all this stuff by plotting by just a little, you know, distant, bumbling, bumbling effort unified by grace. And all the sudden things are unlocked and amazing things start happening. And the cool thing is, you know, for guys who are like the, you know, the aggressive, you know, sort of type A personalities is, you throw some moral obedience in there. You, you throw some, you know, really, you know, sustained and forceful plotting. And there's even more freedom. There's even more, you know, ripples and everything. But, you know, even for guys who were just, you know, who were, who were just barely making it through the day, which is a lot of us, you know, it was just surviving and getting by. It was certainly for me for a lot of years, just a little bit. The Holy Spirit can come in and do things that you can't believe, you know, you know, I love reading about the heroes of the Bible, because so many of them were jacked up. Yeah. You know, and I mean, even Samson for all his stuff is in Hebrews 11 about the heroes. And you're like, what? And then David, you know, Acts 13, it says, and David, having done everything according to my will. This is a guy killed the guy's wife, you know, yeah, no, it's very encouraging. And yeah. And then the book of Acts where these guys are all fighting over stuff. And then teachers are coming in and Paul the Apostle is talking about, maybe that part of where he's going, these guys want to do circumcision. But yeah, well then let him go do it. I hope they're knife slips. I mean, I love this stuff. This is like, I can live there. One of my one of my favorite stories about bumbling is, you know, when when Paul, you know, founds the church at Corinth and then comes back at a later time and goes, whoa, it's thriving. And he's like, I said, all the wrong things. I did it just, you know, I mean, just bumbled through it. And all of a sudden, and he points right to the spirit. It's the Holy Spirit. It's the magnification of the Holy Spirit. You know, and so that story, I live my life according to all the wrong things. And yeah, yeah, they were thriving. But he still had to tell a guy shouldn't be married to his mom or sleep with his mom. So there was, and then there was that. So this is a great, listen, Galatia, right? I love these guys. You guys are doing great. Listen, just a thought, why are you doing a communion? Don't get drunk. Right? It's a lot. There's another thought. When you have guests, let them have some of the bread first. I mean, this is great. I mean, this is great stuff because it means it releases me to be a man. Yeah, to be masculine and to be what that is in my in my bent. If I'm a screenwriter, I can be fully masculine as a screenwriter. If I'm a, if I'm a, if I'm a guide, my fishing guide, I can be fully masculine and that. If I'm selling insurance, I mean, Colossians chapter three says, do it with excellence, dude. Absolutely. I can be fully masculine and that. And if I'm married, if I'm single, this stuff man is a release. And I appreciate in the books we're talking about our invention, talking with Justin Camp, C-A-M-P, and then the book Odyssey, which is kind of the way I picked it up was invention was definition and Odyssey was direction. Yeah. It's kind of the way I read them, but you know, you've got, and then you have why you wrote them. But you know, but that's good. I love it. But that's kind of how they hit me. So I guess the next one in a true Baptist sense would also be a D word, but I don't know what that is yet. Well, this one, I'm knee deep in this one. So this one's all about community, like helping, helping, helping men live in authentic community and trying to explain how it's not a vitamin, you know, something we should really should do because it's good for us, but it's just vital. Kind of the stuff we're talking about, you know, we live in this culture that is just, you know, against us every moment of every day, and it's relentless. And the, you know, in invention, the, you know, I use these kind of historical profiles of, I think it was seven, I forget the number, but I think it's seven, you know, industrial revolution era inventors, right? Edison and Alexander Graham Bell and those guys. And then for, for, honestly, we used, you know, Mercury, Gemini and Apollo astronauts, by the height of the space age, all with the intent of, you know, just engaging the, just giving guys something is fun, you know, teaching them, teaching them really good stuff, but giving something it's fun to read and has some momentum. And then this next one, because it's about community, it's all going to be about rescue team. So it's going to be about smoke jumpers and, you know, you know, the Coast Guard rescue swimmers and, you know, a Navy SEAL team and just guys who are, you know, there for each other in a way that we walking through our lives just aren't, you know. And that is it, because when you talk about rescue, most often we think of the person on the other end, we don't think of the team that does the rescue. And the way that that happens is actually it is because of a team. Guys come together and, and they, they work, you know, women bond differently than men. Women can bond face to face, but men always bond facing a challenge shoulder to shoulder. Absolutely. So, man, I love that. I'm looking forward to that. Justin Camp's been great to meet you and talk about this stuff. I want to finish with this. One of the pivot, great pivot points and filters of your life was having a band of men you got transparent with. How important is it to have friends? I mean, not just Facebook, Instagram, you know, Dunbar's number. I don't know if you're familiar with that. Dunbar's number is 148. The sociologist has said that's what you can contain in your, in your world is 148 friends. Okay. And it's called Dunbar's number. I, well, I'm writing about it right now. So, it's a fascinating thing to me and it really fits when you begin to look at community. But, you know, how do you, you know, and we all have, you know, 3,000 friends are 2,000 or 850 or something like that. Tell me about friendship. I just want to finish with that. I just want to word for us about the importance of that and how do you build that? Well, I can tell you my story. There's a, there's a before and an after. There's a, there's a Justin that was, you know, full of shame and isolated and, and scared of the, scared of the world and, you know, I was going out there and doing things that you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have looked at me and said, oh, that's a guy who's, who's just walking with an enormous amount of fear. But if I, if I measured anxiety and fear, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being debilitating and 1 being nothing, I was probably at a 6 or a 7 all the time and I just thought that's what a man does. It's a man worries, worries about providing worries about this danger and that danger and worries about everything. And I think it's very common. I'm at about a 1 right now, I think. Maybe I get to a 1 sometimes, you know, because I'm walking with my dad in all times. But I don't do that alone with him. I do do it sometimes, but, you know, God, the way God created this thing. He put himself in us so that we can be him to other people. And so most of the way that he loves me, most of the way that I get his rescue, his care, his advice and wisdom and all that is through other men. And so how do I get to a place where I can get that and where I can actually turn that spigot on when I need it, which is all the time. But sometimes I need it on a little bit more. I get there by being transparent, sharing my story and letting guys know what I really need so that they can be who I need them to be. And so I think it's, I think it's absolutely vital. You know, and I'll say one other thing, Jesus said all this up, you know, he announced the new rescue team. You know, the rescue team of the ancient world was the family. It was the clan, you know? That's who you had to rely on. If you needed food and you needed, you know, wisdom or you needed anything, it was the clan. It was the family. It was the immediate family and the extended family. And then he's talking to Peter and he says, Peter, if you leave all that, I'm going to give you something that is a hundredfold better in fields and mothers and sisters and brothers a hundred times. So a hundred X, which you've experienced so far, you're going to get this. And that doesn't come through, you know, shallow, superficial interactions. It comes when you're in a group, whether it's two guys or ten guys, where you are four one another and you trust each other, where you are transparent with one another. You know, each other's stories. You know, the fears and the struggles. It's a, you know, a place where God is at the, where you're all coming together in the name of God somehow. You know, I mean, we all do this stuff differently, but somehow he has to be there. We have to invite him in. And then grace takes over and all of a sudden, amazing things start happening. That hundredfold, that hundred X thing starts happening. And you're like, whoa, how did this, how did I get by before this? You know, yeah, after enjoy and freedom and tears and all of it, you know, that life that Jesus said, I came so that they may have life and have it to the full. Yeah, I start, I start tasting a little bit more of that, you know, so I think it's, I mean, you're talking to somebody who is, you know what the answer is going to be ahead of time, but it's a vital. It's perhaps the vital thing we can. David said, David said, you know, I went truth tastes like honey, you know, and really this find your tribe and love them well, right? It's man that, you know, and really the world does that. We do that in general culture. We have a group of guys we hang with it. If it's a bar or we all go surfing together or something, there's, you know, before God was anything else, he was God in community. Yeah. And I mean, that, that's really it, man, I love that. And the average man, you know, for me, where I live in the United States and you live in the US also, this guy's listening to this all over the world. I think it's probably the same in almost every Western leaning culture. The average man in the United States just saw status has 1.7 friends. 1.7. And I'd start laughing because it was like, we all know who the 0.7 guy is. He's the one that doesn't show up when you move. I know that. You're right. So, but the fascinating thing is here's the other thing that I can't remember if John Eldridge said this or I think it was Stephen Mansfield. He said, the average man in America over 50% over half the minute America, if you were out somewhere, if you were on the road and your wife had a problem like in the house, like the dishwasher, something, you know, or she can't get in the house or where she actually has to be picked up because you got a flat tire. Over half the minute US don't have a friend they can call. That's great. It's so true. It was me for so many years. I had a ton of acquaintances and no real friends. Dude, I was at the, I was at the health club a while back when you know, when you were still open and stuff and and this guy walks up to the guy next to me, he goes, hey, where's Bill? He goes, he goes, he goes, he goes, you know, Bill got sick. He passed away. He goes, oh, shoot, we were friends. We used to work out together and I'm going like, dude, you weren't friends. You didn't even know he was dead. I mean, it was funny and it was sad at the same time. I'm going like, that's what that guy thought was a friend and and he's going to need a friend. Yeah. Someday. So man, we got to do this stuff, do the man thing, be men, men of God. So I've been talking with Justin Camp, wired for men, gatherministries.com, wired for men.com, wired for men, Instagram, IG, you're probably on a bunch of those social platforms because you're savvy with that stuff. And then the new book just came out Odyssey. So I want to encourage guys to get that, encourage guys to be involved with your ministry, get to get the twice a week devotional, all that stuff. I'm just knocked out about what you do, man, and we pray over you in Jennifer. She does the thing for women. We pray over you and your family. You got one headed to college and another one coming right behind that. We pray for you and your family that every place you put your feet will be holy ground and everything you touch will prosper and that God will keep you and your family just in deep within the grip of his grace and favor in Jesus. That's room with us. Thank you, Paul. Thank you for that prayer. That means a ton. Wow, Paul. We have been on a journey. You know what I like about him is his devotional. He calls it handcrafted for the modern Christian man. Wow. And I think it's a clever take and everything he does is like, I look at it and go, gosh, that's so clever. Yeah. And it was just so refreshing to talk to him because he's just real guys, real authentic, real open, raising three children. And he and his wife have this gather ministry. It's remarkable. You know what I love about Justin Camp and even people like him that are creatives is they're so aware. You know, it's like you can be an intentional and be intentional but unaware. But when you can take intentionality and become aware, that's when you make a masterpiece. Yeah. You know, and it's amazing because that masterpiece touches the so many different spheres at the same time. Yeah, intentional about being aware. That's a really good line. Chris, I think what it is is sometimes we can be so and and focus isn't even the right word because we've talked about focusing the bartender. We talk about what focus truly is, stripping away the things that don't belong. But what we can be is somewhat myopic, narrow-minded. Exactly. And that's what Jesus really hit guys with when he was talking to men who were so narrow-minded about the religious stuff that they were doing that they didn't help anybody. Yes. And he had to kind of tell him, hey, here's what true religion is. Exactly. You know, helping to pour, you know, helping those who were hurting, people in the margins, being there for them. Yeah. And Jesus was. And that's what we also see in this most successful artist. You know, the most you think of the, you know, the greatest singer you like or the greatest rapper you like or the greatest whatever you like. The greatness about them is they know how to touch so many different people. It's like, I usually, how many times have you heard that artist that you love? It's like, I usually don't listen to this type of music, but this person has the ability to still touch me. You know, and that's what you get from a guy like Justin Ken. Yeah. That's true. You know, there's just something about it all that just has a feeling to it and a depth to it and loving with them. And so, you know, I just recommend everybody get ahold of this stuff. Yes. And you mentioned at the mid-break about our social media. Yes, I did. Everything. And you also said, this is great. I love what you said. You said, hey, get on your phone right now. Just stop where you're at. Yeah. And click on it. Unless you think you're going to lose the whole podcast. We don't want to lose you, but which is what I would do. I would be like, oh, shoot. I had that word that go. Yes. And then I got to refresh the whole thing. Then I go back to the podcast. And then, and then, you know, then you got to do that 10 seconds forward thing. Yes. 38 times. Yes. But I think there's a way to scroll. Yeah, but it's still a pain. So, so we're, so hit the social media thing again. Where are we at? So we are at Facebook. Yeah. Christian Minnes Network and Paul Lewis Cole. And Christian Minnes Network. Just the way it sounds. I mean, as the other philosophy on Facebook? No. No. Okay. Instagram, no post. Yeah. It's all one work. Yes. And then Paul Lewis Cole, L-O-U-I-S. Yes. Okay. For somebody who who's looking, it's not L-E-W-I-S, L-O-U-I-S. You know, I made that mistake when I first met you. I put you on my phone with E. Oh, did you? Well, is that why you never returning to my text? Wow. Is that what that was? No comment. Wrong guy. Wrong number. Yeah. No, you did, actually, which is why you're here because we met through our dear friend, Dr. Jim Garlo. Yes. And at Bishop Bronners. Yes, true. Yeah. And it was the last time actually I saw Bishop Eddie Long. Yes. It's remarkable. And honestly, an unforgettable moment in my life. Yeah, there was someone forget a little moment right there. Hey, so Paul Lewis Cole. And then YouTube, Christian Minnes Network. Yes. Christian Minnes Network. All one word. All one word, though. We got to put it there. Otherwise, you find videos from all over the world. Yes. Literally every Christian man. It's not our channel video. But actually, you know, and there's some great ones, Bulgaria and Indonesia. Some of our, we're not 134 countries. Yes. So if you put in Christian Minnes Network three different words, you find stuff from everywhere everywhere in numerous languages. Yes. Yeah. Amazing thing. Yes. All right, man. Been great being with you today, Chris. Yes, it's awesome. What are you doing now? You're going to play golf or something? Golf. Basketball. Round ball. Hey, Justin Camp. And Jennifer, we pray the blessing of God on you guys. Thanks for being with us today. And thank you for being a part of Brave Men podcast. We really do enjoy spending time with you, spending time with new friends and, and old friends that we have on the podcast. I hope it's a blessing to you. If you want to get a hold of us, right to me at Paul at cmn.man. That's P-A-U-L, not P-O-O-L, like the breeze to put on there. But Paul at cmn.man, get a hold of this. If you want to mention anything to me or Chris, just write to us here and we'll get it. Thanks for being with us today on another episode of Brave Men. Remember hope is alive. Hope has a name. Hope's name is Jesus. Jesus come on. You've just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian Men's Network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.