BraveMen S3E51: Jon Tyson - Have We Done Church All Wrong?

Hey, thanks for being a part of Brave Men today. We've got a really great interview with John Tyson at Pastor Church Planner from New York, originally, though, from Adelaide, Australia. And we invited someone to come on and interview him with me, and that's my son, Brandon Cole, who's the pastor of C-3, four-worth here in Fort Worth, Texas. And Chris Shields is with me, who's the producer of our podcast. And Chris, meeting John Tyson was something I really looked forward to with his books and everything. Yes, he is solid. Yeah, he's solid. And he speaks to your generation. He does, but it's so funny because when you first look at him, if you don't hear any of his content, you just see him, he comes off traditional. But then when you hear him open his mouth, it's like, wow, there's nothing but it's non-stop fire coming out of his mouth. Yeah, not only that, the guy's smart. Yes, he didn't even finish high school. Wow, I didn't know that. Yeah, and dude, I listened to him talk in this podcast. And then we talked a little bit beforehand, and a little bit after, you know, around the whole thing. And he's using words that I'm going like, oh, I gotta write that down now. And I write that down because that's really good. But see, that's inside, though, because I think that we need to know that in the reality of like when the Holy Spirit comes on you, right? And when the Holy Spirit and fire, as the Bible would say, comes on you, there's things that education can't give you that the Holy Spirit can give you. Yeah. Yeah, he does that. And he talks about, you know, his move, really, he came out of Planet Shakers, which is, you know, awesome. Yeah, right, awesome ministry out of his dad's church. Yeah, Russell was his youth pastor. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm Adelaide, Australia. And so this interview, yeah, we go back through John's past, you know, come into the United States, all that kind of stuff. And then words out today, but, you know, you're, you're in the last year of millennials, aren't you? Yes. I made the cut. You made the cut because you didn't want to be a gin set. No, no, no, gin. So yeah, but you're both entitled. As far as I'm concerned, I'm a boomer. But see, there's two in titles. There's one that I, I, and then there's one E. I, the millennials are the E. I Leonard sweet said, we're so narcissistic in our cultures that we can't spell we without two eyes. That's so true. Anyway, you're going to enjoy John Tyson today on Brave Men. He's a pastor, church planner from New York City. We go through his whole thing, but man, this thing is going to stir you up. It's going to be strong. You're going to enjoy it today. Thanks for being with us on Brave Men. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. I'm talking with John Tyson, who is the lead pastor of Church of the City in New York. And I can't think of a better website than church.nyc. And John Tyson's just that kind of guy is on the front edge. In fact, John, I think you're off the edge. I think you haven't seen the edge in a while. I mean, you're that cutting edge. And I just appreciate everything you've done and what you do in speaking life into North America and the church around the world. But what do you think right now? Where are we at with the church and COVID and coronavirus and people saying that this is going to be the worst thing that ever happened? Are you negative on things? Are you having your hope? Where are we at? Well, thanks so much for having me on the show, mate. I really appreciate that and love what you guys do. So I am grateful to be here. The edge, who knows where the edges may try to say goodbye to the edge a long time ago. So yeah, where are we? Josh, mate, we're certainly at a pivotal moment, aren't we? I mean, this is it's an opportunity. And I think God's always inviting his people back into his heart, back into his purposes. So I think it's a time of fresh consecration if we want it, just to take everything we have, lay it before God and say, Lord, we're moving into a new reality. Here's who we are. Here's what we have. It's yours. Uses. I just hope that people embrace that rather than planning to get back to an idealized past when never going back to. We never go back, mate, not the same. So it is an opportunity. I hope we have the ability to lean into it and to have authority and fruit for the season that God's got ahead. So it's a moment of decision we're going one way or the other. Yeah, and that's really what it's about. It's about establishing the kingdom. It really is about that. You wrote a book called Beautiful Resistance. I want to talk about that also today on Brademan on this podcast today. We've got my son Brandon Cole Pastor from C3 Church in Fort Worth. It's good to have you here, Brandon. Hey, good to be here. This is awesome. Amazing. I have people on the top of it. Yeah. And so John, basically all we're looking at is you're going to answer every single question we have and this will change the future of the human race. No pressure. Well, man, let's go. Let's go. Let's question number one. Let us fail away. So Beautiful Resistance, you centered this book and it just came out. Yeah, last one. It's really prophetic word. Seemed to me. That's how I took it. I took it as a prophetic word. Here's the things that we need to remember are our core values. And you contrasted that with Dietrich Bonhoeffer's experience and really he's the threat of the bug. In fact, he's the start end of the epilogue. And so where did that happen? How did Dietrich Bonhoeffer become part of in beautiful resistance become part of your word to the church today in the 21st century? Well, yeah, I've always had a heart. One of the sort of sovereign themes God's marked my life with is living in radical community. I'm always trying to break out of the typical Western isolated family mold and live in a radical provocative community. So the second you start moving down that pathway, you bump into life together by Bonhoeffer. That led me to read a ton of Bonhoeffer stuff to study his life. And then you asked the question, why did Bonhoeffer choose to live the way he did? What was happening culturally that put that vision in his heart and gave him that motivation that I realized, wow, there's a real similarities happening right now. And so the more I leaned into what he was doing and saw the need of the hour, I sort of wanted to use him as a framing for teaching about what the church can be now about rooting it in a historical model that's similar to our cultural moment. You know, it, you know, a couple of things you bring out that most people would not know. Most of us have heard about Bonhoeffer his resistance to Nazi Germany leadership. And they're taking over, basically, they're taking over of the church in that nation. But one of the things that most people don't know is he was in New York City. He actually was able to stay, they wanted him to stay and he went back to Germany knowing there were dangers. But you mentioned something in that about what his inspiration was when he really came back to a fullness of the Holy Spirit in his life. Tell me about that. Yeah, Bonhoeffer was deep. So by the way, Bonhoeffer was a genius. I don't say that lightly. I always talk to him, but try to read his doctoral dissertation that he wrote at 21 that Carl Bart called a theological miracle. I mean, the level of education and thoughtfulness that he had. So he already had a doctorate when he came to New York, he was in New York twice. The first time he came, he said he went to one of the the schools in New York and was just deeply disappointed at the lackluster level of academics. And the kind of churches that produced in the city, which was what we would call today in the Protestant churches. And so he started attending African-American churches and you know, the black church experience shook him and woke him up. It was both prophetic. It was charismatic and was filled with the power of God. It was focused on justice and the kingdom of God. And it wasn't just purely academic. And so what do you encounter that deeply, deeply impacted him? And when he went back and so a lot of that was before the third Reich really sort of got momentum. And when he went back, he used what he experienced in the African-American church and the resistance that they basically had to have in a majority white culture. He used that experience as a way of building his resistance against what was happening in Germany. So you know, if you see photos, you've got Bonhoeffer sitting there smoking a pipe, sitting in a circle, listening to these African-American spirituals and songs of resistance. And it's amazing that that's what happened in Harlem, fueled much of his resistance. And then now I'm back in New York and his legacy still lives on with that same spirit. It really is amazing. That really is amazing. Of course, you just had a death in the family. Nat Sherman. I mean, I can't even get into it all week. You're dear friend. So I know that's a big thing. It's a fascinating, fascinating thing that you've moved into in church, in leading a contemporary church for me. And as Brandon does, because if you will, it's not necessarily a different language, I don't think, from, say, my generation. But it is a different formation. It's got a different look. How would you describe that? Because you've been around Bell Heibles and you've been around great leaders like that. In fact, you've written books out of their leadership and so forth. How would you describe the difference now, the church, your building, the church of the city? Well, yeah, I mean, I've been so privileged, mate. I got mentored by Tim Keller for a year. So, you know, I've sat under some of the smartest, most thoughtful reformed theologians. I was at Reinhardt Bonkey School of Fire, you know, which was an invite only thing for 15 healing evangelists to bring Revival to America. I always find myself in these worlds that normally repel each other. And I think part of my call is to sort of like integrate back those, those rich values. It's, I think a lot of it is honestly generational. I mean, the boomers and that whole movement was basically reclaiming the church from sort of a boring irrelevance, like it had just drifted into a force that meant nothing to the typical person's life. It was God was distant, God was boring. The whole Seeker friendly thing, which took a lot of critique towards the end of it, but at the time was an absolute revolution. It was like a move of God. And it was primarily built on a young people's passion. I think what's happening now, I'm Gen X, I'm 43. So people, you know, that's part of like the sadness of the world as people talk about boomers and millennials and it's like, yeah, it's like millions of us in Gen X. But Gen X is were basically a bridge that sought for something authentic and relational to deal with all of the relational brokenness that happened in the boomer generation. And so they wanted, they wanted raw, they wanted truth, they're a little bit angry. There are first, it was like in many ways that the fragmentation of the nuclear family really accelerated through that generation. So the generation that's coming up now, they, they don't have that firsthand experience that caused those tremors. They haven't always felt church as separate boring and irrelevant. And they've been brought up in a world that is already deeply, uh, relationally fragmented. So they're not carrying all of that angst or that need. They just came up in it. So what we're trying to basically express now is not all the things that we're against. We're trying to basically build on what we're for. And so to me, that's a, that's a kingdom vision. That's a, that's a, uh, a heart for justice. It's, it's a more holistic picture. You know, and so to me, I'm just trying to be faithful to the kingdom of God at this time. And again, even as I have a son who's 20 and a daughter who's 17, what they prefer is different than what I prefer. You know, so the real question is, are we willing to like lose control and let another generation lead the inner direction? We may not be comfortable with, but all I'm trying to do is basically give expression to what I sense got doing in this moment. And I know that will move on. And my pro voice, whatever it is, will probably decline. And I'll be very happy to hand that over and power others who sense and can speak to that, that moment that's at hand. So yeah, speak, speak a little bit to that because for me, as watching you and I read rumors of God, I remember seeds when it was with part of the Barna group. I remember some of these things that you've written and I feel like in many ways, I've gotten to watch from afar. Of course, the journey you've been on and you spoke about this even before we started recording, kind of the merging of two camps that maybe don't always spend time together. And maybe the way I would look at it's heart and mind, right? There's this there's this sense of we need this inspiration. There doesn't need to be this emotional connection to what we're doing. And yet at the same time, feels to me, you know, James Kayes and it talks about it and you are what you love, this idea that the patterns and the rhythms that create in many senses, the things that you love and the things that you lean into. And what I've loved about your church and watching that is that there doesn't seem to be this disconnect between the emotional inspirational side of what God does in you in those moments of gathering and even in your own home. But also the mind, the amount of quotes that you use and the referencing of minds in culture that speak to certain particular things and redeeming those conversations and and and how those things come together. And I think it's a brilliant thing and I'm curious how you've kind of ended up in this place where and you kind of just touched on it. And even in Bonhoeffer's life, right? He's got this experience here and experience here that I think ultimately ends up giving us a wholeness. So so how do you do that? Because as a pastor, I'm looking at it going, spirit field charismatic, some of those things and yet at the same time, this want for at times, maybe you would call it liturgy, the sacraments, some of these things that maybe went missing in in some of those movements and bringing those back together in our everyday experience or weekly experience. I'll be ended up there and why is it so important that those two worlds do their best to live in the same place? Yeah, well, I mean, it's important because it's biblical, right? You know, it resonates so deeply because it's biblical. And here's what I mean by that. You know, the greatest, I've had a series of conversions in my life and one of them was around apostolic ministry and Christianity. When you read the New Testament, you don't include the apostolic layer and you start saying that apostolic ministry is what elders do and then elders should live like apostles or whatever. You get this huge distortion around leadership. So really discovering sort of like trans local apostolic leadership in teams, it's shook me and woke me up. Now, what is apostolic ministry there? Okay, so you look at the the Pulse of Paul. I think it's three things. Number one, I think it is robust Christology. It is basic, mission or Christology. It's about how Jesus is the Lord of heaven and earth that has to be hashed out in every cultural context. So whether it's defending it against heresy or it's elevating and inspire worship of Jesus or making the case for the Jewish community that he's your long form Messiah, that's a huge part of what ministry is. Theological robustness built in Jesus. The second component is cultural analysis. Paul has the agility to go and you've got to think this is like an armished person preaching in a strip club in Vegas in terms of like a vision of separation and engagement. But basically Paul's able to go to the leading intellectual city of his day in Acts chapter 17 and just converse with him. He's just quoting local people. And so it's a willingness, it's a willingness to understand culture and to speak into it. And then the third part is moving in the power of God signs and wonders. So I don't know how Jesus Paul can build a church of Jesus, engage the cultural elites, but then it says this, he's when he saw the man's faith, he healed him. How can Paul see faith? He can see into the invisible realm. Now the the fourth thing or the thing that I would wrap those three points in is a willingness to suffer. Being at a redemptive edge with darkness and light of pushing in each other and being willing to suffer. So to me, that just feels like what, you know, Apostolic Ministry was in the book of Acts. And I've always I guess, you know, I'm not, I have apostolic instincts and if you do those a pest test, I just like max out on apostolic. I'm just trying to do biblical Christianity. And so that that's a number one. It's sort of like a reclamation of holistic apostolic ministry. Number two, the world's just gotten too hard for simplistic tried stuff to work. And we all know a pet talk doesn't work. We're so exposed to cynicism and doubt and counter arguments and people of other religions and horrific brokenness and national tragedies that all of you like little, little piffy one line is their powerless in light of the brokenness and complexity. This is the world. So we still live in a generation that communicates that way. So figuring out how to say profound things in simple ways is the great challenge of the hour. So yeah, part of it was like studying the Bible and seeing this integration. Part of it, honestly, much of it is New York. I'm a totally different pastor because of New York City. New York's for me in ways nobody can comprehend. Before I moved to New York, I was your classic. Today, I want to talk to you about push push tool. There's breakthrough. I want to tell you a story about my daughter when she wet her diaper and then I'm going to give three random verses and then I'm going to do an alter call. That was me before I moved to New York. And I realized pretty quickly that doesn't work yet. So much of it is the gift of the gift of the city forcing that upon me. Yeah, one year and one of the two most powerful cities in the world, London and New York City. And so that would form you. And you know, what Paul was doing was trying to reform Romans 12, too, says don't think like the city. Yes. Yes. Right. He's saying, you know, you need to change the way you think. Colossians, you were talking about the robots. No, the first thing it was I wrote it down and can you read my writing? I wrote it. That's where I boss Christology. I mean, it's his ability. That was that was blossoms. Yeah. Right. It's a center of all things and then everything was formed and held together. Listen to brave men. We've got on with this John Tyson, the lead pastor, church of the city in New York, well known author. And in fact, on the back of your book, it says widely respected New York pastor. All right. I don't know who comes up. I thought that was awesome. Man, I want that. I'm going to write that on something of mine. Just to just cut and paste that. Put it on. Yeah. Just take your name out. Put my name in widely respected. But but you're right. These things are incredible and great points. And so my question is, how do you, you know, you say New York has formed you and yet at the same time, you've got to speak into that life. And when you said the one little sentences don't work anymore, and yet we've got people writing over one sentence memes. Hey, when I felt like when he said pithy one liners, he had been a privy to my private conversations with people about the tweets and the and the Instagrams and the quotes that you hear from 27 years ago by a brilliant man that now are credited to whoever said it lately. But you're right. And I I would love to actually ask you about X 17. And I don't mean to interrupt my dad except I kind of did. I, you know, this this unknown God, right? But all doesn't just go in saying, Hey, you got to serve this unknown God. He he almost you feel that I in some ways feel like theology has lost a bit of its philosophy that it's ability to unpack a box and kind of go let's look upward and wonder a bit. Let's let mystery lead us into a place of question and and depth and and curiosity. And so how do you do that? Because it does it does seem to be right now so important that we are able to take people on a journey and even go on that journey ourselves to not just act as though we have arrived somewhere, but we are on this journey together. And at the end, or you didn't know about this God that Paul speaks to an X 17 one of my favorite chapters. Yeah. So how do you how do you do that? Because I I see you do it. And I think it's given language. So a lot of people to begin to have that process of going I can think about it as much as I feel about it. And those can live together. So it's kind of how do you do that? Yeah. I mean two things. Number one is like I'm I'm just intellectually curious. Now I'm a high school dropout. Like I'm so staggeringly uneducated. So it's like, but I'm just really curious. I'm really interested. So I think that's a part of it. You know, like there's a there's a great war for our curiosity. And that's why you know, like all the research on attention spans and addictions and algorithms and all of that. It's like it appeals to our curiosity. So I'm very very careful what I give my attention and curiosity to. The second thing is that I love people and I know that sounds so right, but love means you seek to understand. And if you and if you're really going to understand what it is that people hope for their longings, that you've got to understand where they're coming from. And so to me, I've been drawn into deep levels of study on stuff. I have no personal interest on other than it's connected to somebody I care about. And if they care about it, I have to care about it to understand where they're coming from. So to me, what I mean what Paul's doing is it is like a classic case of subversive fulfillment, which basically he enters into their story. He agrees with it as much as possible. Then he gives it an alternative ending that is very, very surprising. And I think that's so fascinating because most of us start with offense. He says, hey, look, I just want to say you're very religious and I just want to honor that about you. So he's dealing with sort of like their core humanity. We all have these longings and you have pursued these and it's led to this expression in this city. And I just want to respect that. And then he slowly moves into the confrontation, which is, hey, do you want to know about another God that you've missed? And so he's actually, you know, I mean, you know, the story of what had happened in that city. There was the plague in the sacrifice. Like so there's a huge cultural narrative backstory he's addressing in that passage. But then he says, and then he starts chipping in. This is by the way, God doesn't live in temples made by human hands. I appreciate the temples. He's not in any of these. That's a massive insult to the city. That's, you know, that's like being, that's like being in Mecca and going. He wasn't really here. This isn't it. And then he leads him, but he doesn't in such a way that it's not offensive. I talk about, he does the same thing in Acts 19, which I think is even perhaps more insightful because in Acts 19, the city's in a riot. And then when the leader of the city gets up, he says, this man has not slandered our goddess. And I was like, he's got the city in a riot. He's priest Jesus. He's seen signs and wonders. And yet at the end of it, the leader basically says, look, everyone's angry, but he hasn't slandered our goddess. How do you bring a citywide revival and riot without slandering a local deity? Paul did it. That's, that's amazing concern. And so I think many of the times where we're not thinking about how to engage the world, where we're living within a frame where it basically says, God equals Jesus. Truth equals Christianity. And then we're angry that nobody believes that anymore. Other than really asking, I mean, it's all Leslie Newby can stuff them. It's how do you have a genuine missionary encounter with Jesus in what is now basically a non-Christian culture? So yeah, it's love. It's love. It's curiosity that sort of leads to that. Hey, this is Chris. Let me take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to remind you how to get in touch with Paul and Christian men's network and the Global Fatherhood Initiative. You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmn.min. That's the Christian men's network at cmn.min. Christian men's network does special events across America and around the world. You can find all the information at cmn.min. Click on events. We also have tremendous resources for churches with special discounts for groups on that website. Everything a church needs from A to Z to mentor and disciple men of all ages and backgrounds. Now let's get back to this powerful interview between Paul and John Tyson. That's fantastic. We live in a postmodern world and I recognize that. My contention, Lynn Sweeten, I've had conversations on this. I believe we live in a postmodern but pre-Christian world. I don't know that we've actually lived in a quote unquote Christian world. I feel like there's been touches of it. I feel like it's provided some, if you will, skeleton framework, things that help us stand up. I don't see if I look back on the way people were treated in business in the late 1700s. If I look back on the mid-1800s and the Jim Crow laws following the Civil War, if you look back on the 1600s and the first slaves that came to America were white Irish, if you look back on all that stuff and then if you look back on your country where you're from, by the way, people have probably noticed by now you don't have a New York accent. That's a Brooklyn accent. It's a Brooklyn accent. It's what the Dursos in Queens. But you're from Adelaide, which is the first free city, free settlement in Austria. That's right. I appreciate that local knowledge there. Yeah, out of that, so out of that background and that sort of thing, you walk into where you are today. But my thing is that I don't know that if you really look the way people were treated and the way things were greed and all of that, the abyss of leadership took the forefront. I don't know that we've ever lived in it. What we would call a Christian culture. Well, I mean, so yes, yes, and part of it would be we've lived in a world that is deeply formed around a Christian understanding of reality. So for example, the founding fathers, you look at the American documents and the ideas totally, totally bizarre. I was in Philadelphia looking around and I was just like, you guys are haunted by God. You may not love him. You may be deist, but it's everywhere. So we were probably not in a kingdom culture. Yes, I definitely agree. They were not working for the tangible wall and reign of Jesus in life and culture. It was a Christian inspired framework. Yeah, church, Bible or whatever. What we've lost now is basically any semblance of that. So if you, if you know, just study to climb, you basically start with genuine people. The purins were very sincere. You know, sincere and godly people. One generation, so one generation starts with godliness. The next generation doesn't have the same encounter. They're left with the form and then the generation that comes after that has a form and there's no life in it. So they just rebel against it and go into licences. That's in essence where we are in America. Whatever genuine encounter got it started has been left with a cultural form that we're now throwing off as tyranny and it's basically the sovereignty of self. And so I remember, I'm Len Sweet wrote a book. I think it was very short book. I was taking the dusk for dawn and I love that book because I agree in many ways. This is pre-Christian. This is pre-Christian, not post-Christian, particularly in New York. I mean, we're seeing people come to Christ and they've never heard. I do not exaggerate. They've never heard of Daniel, Noah, David. They just like, they've never heard of David in life. And so they're in our prayer room because they've radically encountered the grace of god. And they're sitting this and someone got up and shared the story of Daniel. And I remember this woman coming up with tears in her eyes just being so moved. She said, that's so powerful. Where's that story from? It's like it's in the Bible. She said, wow, I've never heard that in my life. So we're reaching people with no grid whatsoever. I do want to be occasionally John, where I'll sit guys at a table up and from when I speak at events. And I'll take four of this random guys and sit them down. And where we end up is we end up talking about fatherhood. And I want to get into that. And we end up in a place of forgiveness for their dads. But you know, see with these guys, I ask them a little bit about where they're from. And I said, the guy sitting in my left, Husky guys probably in his mid 30s. And I said, we're going to tell a story about this guy named King David. Do you know who he is? He goes, I don't have a clue. I said, well, this is in England. This was in like, this was in California somewhere. And it was, it's just one of those stories. You expect people to know, but they don't. So I think you're right on track on this stuff, man. Yeah. I, you know, I think you know, I know that you just talked about father and the primal path. And even some of what you just talked about and God in relation to his church, I think fathers and relations to their sons. I think there's a sense of, you know, Mark Sayers talks about the characteristics of the kingdom without the king that there's no, you're right. We're haunted by this idea. So for some, you see Jesus walking on water and calling it ghost. It's kind of like, wait, what is going on here? And it's that I think Genesis 2, right, the shape and spirit that Adam had the shape before he had the spirit, but he had to have both to fulfill the calling that God had put in his life. And I wonder for you with the primal path. And you said prior that you had kind of written this for your son. And then you released it to to to more. And I've had friends who started to go through. And I think it's brilliant. So, so where is that? Because what is it that is the need for it with you and your son? How did that come about? And then, and then the step to say, you know, this is something that can go further and can help a lot of dads and sons and that shape and spirit. They can see what I do, but the spirit with which I do it is also important. And so, yeah, where did all that come out of and how important is it for today? Yeah, I mean, I want to, I want to start by saying, my dad is a good and godly man who, compared to how he was raised, was honestly a freaking hero. But he just didn't have the tools, didn't have the tools, had the heart, didn't have the tools. And so I'd basically wrote the primal path out of a great deficit, which is like, I don't know how to walk and adolescent into manhood. I don't know how to do it. There's like no recognized pathway. So, you know, I basically, everything I do is like doctoral research, in essence, which is like, I get a topic I'm interested. I read as much as I can, I try and summarize it and turn it into a useful tool. Like my, my trueist mentor calls me a thoughtful practitioner. He's like, you're not going to put out one life manifesto. Whatever you touch, you're going to read all about it and summarize it and turn it into a tool. And I was like, I think that's like a part of my life call. So I, so I basically read all these books on men's ministry and realized they all have this theme, very common theme. Broken men filled with regret who, who didn't get it right with their kids. And I was like, where's the book on? I got it right. He's out of get it right. Now, there's a couple of those out there that A, they were super dated and B, they were too simplistic. They were not holistic enough. So, transformation happens in breakthrough and process. And the books had to break through things like do a powerful camping trip. Well, they don't change your kids life. They'll remember it the whole life. But what do you do every day? Because you're now in competition, which is when these books weren't written. You're a competition with cell phones, violent video games, porn on the phone, unlimited access. So that daily formation is just as strong. So what I basically did is I sat down and I said, what is the godly man? And who do I want my son to be when he leaves this home? And then I just back dated it and designed a pathway, reverse engineering it six years and then built it out week by week for the next six years. And so I did that for my son because I love him. And I was like, I got to fill these gaps in. It's boots. So that's what it was. It was a six-year journey with my son that I basically turn into a course to help you do with your son. It's boots on four big ideas. Number one, preparation. You have to get your own house in order. You got to deal with your own brokenness, your own drama. You've got to know your own story. You got to tend to your own wounds. You got to get in touch with your own call. Number two, initiation. You have to shake your son into a story. He has to realize he's been marked and he's now entering into a different stage. And it will be very different than most of his friends. Number three is formation. It's facilitating a series of movements and ideas that help him move from adolescence into manhood and then how to mark when transition happens. And then recognition. How, because men ache for progress and growth, they want to know, am I getting better? That's the last part of the boring games. Yeah, no, it's exactly right. So recognition is the last component on how to basically welcome him into the community of men. So he did a gap here, which was a part of it. And then at the end of it, we hiked 500 miles across Spain to the community of Santiago. And then we debriefed his six-year journey every day through a series of questions over 33 days. And then we ended that with him running into the ocean as a baptism into manhood. And at the end of it, I gave him a $6,000 Roth IRA maxed out to teach him about compound interest that the what he'd put into this bear fruit for the rest of his life. Yeah. And so I had so many folks sort of reach out and say, that sounds like really helpful. And my whole goal is to be helpful. If someone else has done it, I'll use it and no desire to reinvent a wheel. I will, I promote more books and resources and almost anyone I know. But if there's a hole and it matters in my life, I'll try and fix it. So that's basically what the primal path was. And it's primalpath.co if you want to check it out or whatever. Yeah, I actually saw that. I saw it in your church, by the way, church.mlc. And you can click on resources and then primalpath.co. So I thought, well, I wonder what primalpath.com is and it's for sale, but it's like three grand or something. That's right. I think someone literally saw where I was building this out and was like, let me go pocket that. Come up to that money. And I was like, I just want to put kids to recall it. I'm sorry. So you know, there's a great movie about that hike because that's fantastic. And it was a meal. You asked of us. Oh, yeah, bro. I mean, yes, I wept my way through that. I mean, that's required viewing way of this movie. I missed the title. It's called the way. Oh, oh, Martin machine. And it's, I don't know, we give it all away, but he tries to figure out what because his son dies on this hike. And he's trying to figure out they had no relationship. And he's trying to figure out what, what in the world was he doing? And he comes in this awakening in his life. So that's a remarkable thing for you guys to have done. A friend of mine, Tom Davis just did that with his kids down. He lives in Barcelona now. So, uh, so primal path really came out of the love for your son. That's correct, man. It's like everybody else is getting an overflow of of my love for my son. But it's definitely definitely met a need. So my phrase is this. Here's what I do. I want to help overwhelm but determine Ted's raised sons of consequence. That's it. So if you're, if I'm looking for a dad who's determined but doesn't know how and I've got a vision that they don't want their son to grow up to be someone who's masturbating, looking at porn, eating pizza, who never self-actualizes. Like they're like, I want my, I wanted to move into his purpose of destiny. If that's you, I can help you with that. If that's not you, I can't help you. So a lot of people were like, man, why isn't it free? I'm like, you, you fundamentally do not understand the concept of skin and the game. I actually gave it away for free at first. It was just free. So anybody who asked me, I just gave it to them. And then I watched none of them do it. And then I started judging for it. And I watched, I started going, all right, brass spent some money on this. I need to check back into whatever stuff. I mean what you're talking about is ultimately what the best definition of discipleship, right? The day to day, I feel like that's coming back into the church, the patterns, rhythms of day to day, week to week, what you do. And gosh, right now, when you can't go to church on a Sunday, you can't necessarily go to groups, you got to jump on a Zoom call, those kind of everyday rhythms. And maybe we realize now that discipleship requires more of us. And yet at the end of it, running into an ocean and some of those things is actually worth every single moment. Well, what I always wish in moments like this, my son is normally here right now. He goes back to college next week. So I want to do an interview and just have my shung shirt. I actually did a podcast when I'm hiking across Spain. I podcasted it with my son. So you can hear him talk about it. But the fruit is in meeting my son. That's the fruit. It's not my ideas about it. So I said to people all the time, like, you know, talk to my son about it. See what Nate says about it. Because the thing that amazes me is I did, I mean, I did some epic stuff. I mean, I just went all in. I went as all in as you can go. And some of that stuff, he doesn't even remember like stuff. I was like, now this, this is going to mark him. And he's like, I don't even remember doing that. I was like, are you kidding? I mean, I mean, I know we, I mean, I know we did it. I didn't get anything out of it. And then sometimes it's they're sowing the seed, the daily seed. So if I ask my son, like, what's the number one thing you got out of the primal path? By the way, we met for 40 minutes a day for six years. So what's the number one thing I got out of it? He said, you are who you are when no one is looking. It's just the number one thing I got out of it. Like being a man in the world alone before God is determined about what I do in my spare time when I can do whatever I want. And he says that, that is stuck with me. And that's the thing I think about all the time. So he does it without guilt. I said, you've got to like sort of detachably observe yourself for self awareness. So the first part of it is just like, what do you want to do examine your desires, examine your behaviors, examine your proclivities, and then see your weaknesses, see what you love, see your temptations, see your strengths, and build on it. So it wasn't just like I'm trying to put the fear of God in him. I'm trying to literally help him know who he is in the world. So yeah, it was, it was, I love him, man. He's such a great, he's tiny and a such a great young man. You know, I'm talking, we're talking with, it's my son, Brandon Cole, and we're talking with John Tyson. I just want to close finish up with this has been an incredible time times has gone by really fast. What you've done with your son is what everybody should do. And in fact, I believe in there's an organization that on its site, it says, here's what we're about. It's part of the whole antifa thing, which is we're against patriarchy. And I believe that what the world is trying to do is throw off the fatherhood of God. And that's the ultimate fight, right? Paul said you have 10,000 instructors with not many fathers. And I believe true discipleship is a fatherhood piece formation. Paul said you have 10,000 instructors. And instructor tells you what he knows. But a father gives you who he is. And that's where we need to go in the church. And we've gone from, you know, a sermon wasn't anointed unless it had 21 points. You know, to now it just, if you have the heart of a father, you touch people's lives. And so I want to thank you, John. Thank you for what you do. I want to recommend beautiful resistance by John Tyson, TYSO. And you can find that Amazon every place else, but also a church dot NYC primal path dot CO for your curriculum that formation path that walks young men through to manhood. It's an absolutely incredible piece. So thank you for being the person that can take Victor Frankel and make him part of Paul's message on the Holy Spirit. You know, it's like, you know, you're a very unique gift. So thank you, John, for what you do. And we pray over you and your wife and family that every place you put your feet will be holy ground. Everything you touch, it will prosper. And the Lord will keep you deep within the grip of his grace and favor. And I would just encourage everybody to listen to us right now. Pray for John and his family because you are in a place where you're going to take hits. And you need a band of brothers. I know you have that, but we want to be part of that also, John. And I thank God for you, man. Thanks for being on Brave Man today. Amen. Thanks for having me. This is a great shot. Wish we had one time. Wow, Paul. I get three of my favorite thinkers on one podcast. Yeah, you know, Brandon reads all this stuff. And he's a deep, deep man and a great pastor. And so he and John Tyson even off Mike and everything, you know, off the recorded portion of this. You know, really connected up on this. And Brandon's read all of his books, you know, burden his light, sacred roots, creative minority, all these things. And so Brandon's talking to him about sacred roots and all this stuff. Well, I'd only read the book that he just came out with the beautiful resistance. Exactly. Which has which centers on Bonhoeffer. Yes. Right. Yes. And so it's a remarkable story. It's a good book. Everybody needs to get it. It's called a beautiful resistance. I think I mentioned his website a few times in there. So you know, you can get that or you can get in touch with us at seaman.man. Are you at Chris at seaman. I am Chris at seaman. Is that a CH? Yes. The real way to spell it. The real way. Well, Christopher, follower of Christ. Exactly. Right. That's what I'm saying. It's the real way to put this. Shoot, man. I'm going to tell Chris this office and what you said. He'll come beat you up, man. Hey, he doesn't want to mess with my angels. This is the message of your angels. Which one? Which shoulder? I can't tell you. I can't tell you. Anyway, John Tyson, man, this guy, I thank God for guys like this. It's speak into the life of our culture. Yes. They're in New York City. If you look at his Instagram and everything, his IG stream and all that stuff, you know, he's just got this incredibly diverse crew. Yes. And now as he mentioned, he's relaunched a new church, basically because he wanted to get back to some of his roots. Yeah. Out of Andrew Evans's church, they're an Adelaide and Russell Evans, what plan to checkers and the signs and wonders. Yes. You know, people being healed. Yes. You know, stuff happening, man, because that's what that's what's going to change the future, Chris. Yes. Is when we really fully commit to everything that Jesus did on the face of the earth and John 1412, when it says that every place he went, you know, he healed the sick, raised the dead, did all this stuff, cast out demons. And then in John 1412, he says, and the same stuff I did. Yes. I don't know if he said well, yeah. Maybe he said brethren. Yes. Which was a bro, bro back then, right? Anyways, everything I did, my disciples will do. Ephesians 1 tells us that all of us have that full measure of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, but I think you intentionally left out this part, but I'm going to bring it up. 1412 also says if you believe in me, the works that I did in greater works. Yeah, greater works. So like what you always say, the best, the greatest churches haven't been built. You know, the best sermons haven't been released. There's so much like we should be on, if you're woke up this morning, you won. Yeah. You're winning. And you should get up and be passionate and on fire and ready to conquer something today and grow strong before. Yes. Yes. Ask 217 says in the last days, I'll pour up my spirit. It doesn't say in the last days, the writers will take over. Yeah. No. Right. Doesn't say in the last days, all the deadly stuff will take over. No. Now, there's going to be stuff that happens, right? Yes. Stuff happens. That's the Christian bumper sticker version. Yes, but fire never gets put out. It's still shiny. You see what I'm saying? And that we have to look at Isaiah 60 where it talks about. In the last days, yes, it might be dark, but guess what? The Christians are shining bright. You got to decide today, are you going to be the radiance of Christ? Are you going to shine as your own light? Come on, man. We have to decide. And now, day, like people like John Pasadjohn Tyson and Brandon Cole and Paul Cole are all about shining bright. Bring it, man. Hey, that's what I want to follow. And that's what brave men is all about. Brave men is about stirring us up to become men of courage, men of strength, men of tenacity, men of endurance, resilience, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit are committed, focused, determined, relentless men who won't quit. We're going to get knocked down. You've been knocked down already. You're a guy who's still been, you're already been knocked down a few times, right? Yeah. And it's going to happen again. Yeah, but champions are not those that never fell. It's those that never quit. Hang on. Let me write this down. Yeah. Because you can have that one. I mean, use that on Monday nights. Every Monday night at 9 p.m. Eastern, we do Monday night men. Right now where we're recording this, we're going through never quit. You can go on the Christian men's network, YouTube, this Christian men's network all together, YouTube, and you'll find strong men and tough times who've gone through. And then the book never quit. These are great teachings you can use for your church. You could do a pull your group together. Guys can watch it separate times and then come together on a Zoom call and talk about it. And so we do that. So Monday night men is also a Facebook group. You can get into, get original content. It comes out of there also every week devotional. It's different things that we do on that site. It's been great having John Tyson today on Brave Men. Remember hope is alive. Hope has a name. Hope's name is Jesus. You've just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.