BraveMen S3E46: Nick Stumbo - Healing Men in Sexual Brokenness

Hey, thanks for being with us today on Brave Men. I remember these commercials years ago and it was a man and he would be he was like skiing, you know, water skiing and and he had this hair that had been put on him, and he was it was called a hair club, and he said, I'm not only the owner of it, but I'm a client, and so as a client he had bought this place, and that was a big thing, and Nick Stumbo, who's with us today, is one of those kinds of stories is that not only is he the executive director of a ministry called Pure Desire, but he was one of the men who was helped through it, and he was set free from a really difficult addiction to pornography. And so Nick Stumbo is an amazing story. I'm with Chris Shields, who's our producer for Brave Men, I'm Paul Lewis Cole, and it's great to have you with us, and great to have you here, Chris, this is going to be a great story. Yes, it is. What a powerful again, like these last couple of episodes. Yeah, we've had some restoration. Yeah, restoration. Man, that's amazing. That's the thing, isn't it? Yes. That's sort of a Jesus thing, isn't it? Wow. Yes, definitely. What a concept. Yeah, it's like, wow, Bible. You know, people say Brave Men, so it's the stories of Brave Men. Well, it is, but really what Brave Men is about for me, why we started it was to enlarge all of our hearts, to take all of these things, build hope in us, so that we would be courageous men. Right? Yeah. And that's what a Nick Stumbo story does for me. It's like a guy who messed up, he was jacked up with this porn stuff. Now he's the executive director of the ministry called Pure Desire that helped him get set free of it. Yeah, and I mean, it makes me think of the story of Jacob, you know, the very place that he was fleeing to was the very place that set him free. You know, and it's like people don't see that. Laban means white. Yeah, wow. He learned how to be pure by going to visit his uncle. Isn't that something? And you see that in that, that you guy ripped him, no, see? Yeah, you ripped him. Is that something about white? Is that a thing? Is that purity, purity? Okay, I got you. But Laban, that was, that's an amazing story. That's a great, that's a great parallel. Yeah, you know, the place he ended up could have been, I mean, he could have looked at it like Nick Stumbo did, could have looked at it and said, man, I'm all messed up. I'll never do anything right. He gets into this. He actually walks through this program. Yes. And now he's walking thousands of other men through the same time. Exactly. And it also just shows the power of thinking. You know, I love Proverbs 23, seven. It says, so a man thinks in his heart. So is he. And it just shows how when a man is able to walk through a process that that allows his thinking to change. And he has brothers to do it with. Yeah. Yeah, Romans 12, too, where it says that that our life changes by changing our thinking. Exactly. The way we think. And that's what pure desire does. It helps men change the rhythm. It changes the, it pivots how we see things and the filter in our lives. But that's the power God that does has. So pure desire is a great ministry. They are an ally of ours. We are, we do stuff together. Yeah. Like Nick and all the different guys who are part of it. And Dr. Ted Roberts who began this ministry is a legend. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. And then Jeremy Wiles, who's one of the, what would you call him? Graduates. Yes. I guess a guy who's come through this walk through it, walked it out. He did this conquer series. You know, the video series. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Jeremy and Tiana. He's a graduate. In fact, he went through at the same time as James Kraft, who we've had on another episode. Yes. How come we haven't had Jeremy on yet? Chris, you're a producer. Come on, man. Well, actually, you know, it'd be great as he and his wife. Yeah. That would be because they had to walk through it together. And now he's a film producer doing movies. And he did the conquer series. And Nick's in that James Kraft. I'm in that series. And it helps men get set free of ends for churches and stuff. It's fantastic. Hey, today you're going to hear one of the most amazing stories. It's going to enlarge your heart. It's going to give you courage, going to help us be brave men. This is the story today of Nick Stumbo. It's brave man with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. I'm talking with Nick Stumbo, my friend, who's the executive director of pure desire ministries. That a man that both of us deeply admire Ted Roberts founded his wife years ago. And Nick, thanks for taking the time. Pure desire is a place to find hope and healing, but hope and healing from what? Yeah, hope and healing from pornography. It's a message that we're passionate about. Well, really, we help the whole spectrum of what we would call sexual brokenness or unwanted sexual behavior. You know, you look at the data and if you just ask about pornography, the stats are alarming. But if you expand that definition to say, are you struggling with some kind of unwanted sexual behavior in your life? And that could be everything from masturbation to pornography to acting out with other people. And, you know, we find that routinely somewhere between 68 and 70% of men would raise their hand and say, yep, that's me. And 25 to 30% of Christian women would say the same thing. Now, their struggle might not always be the same, you know, the visual pornography that men are drawn to. But women face very similar temptations to find value worth belonging pleasure in sexual things. And it can become a very, very powerful pattern. Is that really what it's all about then value and worth? Well, yeah, that's a big part of what we try to do. Paul has helped educate the church that there's more going on than a moral choice. You know, and that's how most of us grew up is like, well, stop doing it. It's bad. It's wrong. It doesn't help. You know, God says not to and and most of us knew that and tried very hard not to. Yeah, well, here's the deck. You're 16 years old. You've come into this fullness of your sexuality. You're interested in everything in the world. Yeah, everything's out there. And then at 16 years, everything is out there. And then you're told by the church, yeah, don't look at anything. Don't be attracted. Yeah, I mean, this is that I'm just telling you, man, that was that didn't work for me. And I don't think it works for young men. Yeah. Well, that's that's just the truth is that we tend to have a very thin ethic of sexuality that basically says sex is for marriage and until then don't do it. And then after then we don't really talk about it either. It's just like, well, go have sex because you're married and good luck. It all works. And we just need to embrace that God made a sexual beings and our sexuality is complex that yes, there's pleasure back to your question. There's desire and pleasure, but there's also things that we're looking for to to Medicaid pain to deal with unwanted emotions in our life. And for a lot of men and women, that's why it becomes a really, we might even call it an addictive struggle or just something they find very, very difficult to stop. It's not just because they're making a poor moral choice, but because it's become entwined in their emotional well-being or what they run to when things aren't working. And they don't feel a sense of value or worth or belonging sexual brokenness and pornography are that siren voice that's right there saying, I can make you feel what you want. Even for a few moments, you know, and those few moments of everything making sense and we feel wanted and desired. The brain remembers that payoff and wants to go back there, even if it's followed by an avalanche of guilt, shame, regret and remorse, what the brain holds on to is what worked for those few moments. So it's such a deeply insidious battle that we face because of that. You know, that's amazing. When you put it in, I mean, it's just why you guys are experts at this with pure desire ministries. When you put it in that perspective, I think about guys who were addicted to let's say crack, you know, which is a really tough addiction. You know, the hit from crack doesn't last that long. It's it's 10 15 minutes. It's this band big high and then it's hours of feeling like crap. Yeah. And yet that 15 minute high is what then brings them back aside from the physical cravings that we've, you know, online. Yeah. Well, what's fascinating when you really study the brain and what crack and other drugs due to the brain actually that it's not the drug itself that you become addicted to. It's what the drug does in your brain that allows you to experience a heightened level of dopamine and the hit of endorphins that are already in your brain. And what researchers have found about the brain is actually the sexual the payload that some kind of sexual high brings is as powerful or in many, many cases, much more powerful than the hit of person gets from a drug. So that's the challenge we're in is it's the both end of it's a chemical problem in our brain that we really have become addicted to a high that is the drug that's in our own brain. But then also the emotional, you know, the history side of us that is looking for something to help us feel better or to make sense of life. So that's one of the things we really try to help men and women understand and church groups that you've got to fight this on multiple fronts. You know, you can't just put on the spiritual band a to pray harder and trust God and don't do it again. How to address what's going on in your brain. You've got to address what's going on in your soul that leads you into that pattern. And I think when people start to see some of that just like you're saying they recognize, oh, this is a much bigger issue than I thought I just thought I made bad choices once in a while. But I can see now there's this whole system that's keeping me trapped in this cycle and I've got to figure out how to dismantle that system. How do you start into that? And you know, because we I think most of us know that there's triggers, right? There's things that trigger us. And how do I start into just getting set free? Let's just use up. I don't know what would be an easy example, Nick, you know, even overeating or something. There's just trigger points, emotional trigger points. I need to handle. Yeah. Yeah, you know, let me tell you about one of the biggest breakthroughs, you know, for me as I went through the process about 10 years ago and I grew up in a very solid Christian home. 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We are our brothers keeper. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think that's one of the things that with Krishnamurt's network and pure desire where we really connect with each other is we just really believe in brotherhood. Yeah. And we believe that when we stay connected we're stronger. How do I talk to my son about this stuff, man? Yeah. That's that's a great question, Paul. And one that we get a lot because I think men and women feel like, boy, I, you know, I know the struggles I faced in a totally different world. And now in this digital cell phone device driven day and age where all that stuff is out there. How do I protect them? And we always try to flip the script a little bit. And sometimes it's hard for people to hear a bit. But I'll look someone in the eye and say the greatest thing you can do for your son is face your own sexual brokenness. And I'll ask the man, I'll say, do you feel comfortable telling your story of what you've struggled with and what God's done in your life? And honestly, most people, when they get that question, it's like, you know, well, not really. I just want to help my son. It's like, well, here's the bottom line. If you're not healthy, your ability to help your son be healthy is almost non-existent because you're going to be trying to teach something that you're not living. And they can sniff that out. So you can get on them about having covenant eyes on their phone and not where they put devices. And you can do all that and kind of force some compliance. And it can help. I mean, boundaries are healthy. And they help. But if there's not something authentic coming out of your life where you're able to sit with your son and say, you know, buddy, I know what you're going through because I've been there. And I'm a man that struggled with these kind of things too. And here's what God has been teaching me. And here's how I've grown. And that doesn't mean the dad has to be perfect because that's the other danger. I think we feel like, well, unless I'm perfect, what do I have to teach my son? And so since I, since I struggled, I just kind of let them struggle too. It's like, no, if you're the dad, God put you there to be a voice of guidance and wisdom and love and truth. But you've got to have something happening in your life too. So I just, I try to invite men say, you need to face your stuff. And when you do that, it will just, in it automatically, it kind of overflows into the relationship you have with your kids. So yeah, be have conversations about where they use their phone and what they do at night and where their devices are. And all that is very good. Because that's the other thing I do tell parents, like, talk to them, just say something too many parents. Too many parents are still in the, well, we had the birds in the bees talk four years ago. And I think we're good. It's like, no, okay, you realize for your son sex is on his brain like all day long. And if you only had one talk with him four years ago, he's, he's determined, you're not a safe person to go to. Wow. But if routinely you're just bringing up, hey, man, how are you doing? How can I help? You know, what, what's going on with girls at school? What are boys talking about? What, what are the jokes flying around that? How does stuff make? Can you feel like it? Just engaging them in conversation creates a culture in your home where they, they realize, oh, dad's someone safe to talk to. So that's the other thing I really emphasize. That's it. Right there is a safe culture. Hey, this is Chris. Let's take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to remind you how to get in touch with Paul and Christian men's network and the Global Fatherhood Initiative. You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmn.min. That's cmn.min. Also, you can write to Paul at Paul at cmn.min. That's Paul at cmn.min. We have tremendous resources for churches with special discounts for groups on that website. Everything a church needs from A to Z to mentor and disciple men of all ages and backgrounds. Now, let's get back to this awesome interview between Paul and Nick Stumbo. Pure desire dot orgie and talking with Nick Stumbo, who's the executive director and founded by Ted Roberts, who was a pastor and saw a need for men to get set free of sexual brokenness. And a former, was he marine aviator? Yep, marine pilot. Yeah, so once a marine always marine. I do know that much. Yes. If you meet him, he'll let you know. He did. He did. Dr. Roberts, I love that man. If he's anything, he's direct. Yes. Appreciate that about your ministry. But one of the things we always say, Nick, is don't talk to your children about God until you first talk to God about your children. That's a great way to put it. And what that means is that I need to pray over my son, you know, not go annoying him with oil. I mean, in my own private time, pray about him. And I believe if we're truly, if God is who he said he was, if the Holy Spirit is who Jesus said he is, then the Holy Spirit will bring to our mind things we need to say to our kids because the thing is, what do I say to him? Can you give me a list of 10 things? Bro, if you need a list of 10 things, then you need to go pray because you need to go hang out with your kid. It's kind of like people say, I need a little primer on, on fathering. I go, I don't know, bro, just grab a hold of it and maybe take him to the park and buy a dirt bike. I mean, you know, just do get stuff. Dude, nice stuff. And that's exactly the point I like to make. And you know, when you're talking to your kids about sex or trying to bring this up, too often we turn it into this weird awkward like, okay, there's this special meeting we're going to have. And you're nervous. And it's like, I don't know if that's helping. You know, when you should talk about this is when you're taking your kid out for a milkshake after school. And just while you're driving in the car to say, you know, hey, buddy, how's it going with girls at school? And you find, you know, anything going on in your brain, you know, just to try to make it a normal part of life because that's something honestly, Paul, I really missed from my dad who he's a pastor. He's a godly man. I love my dad. We have a great friendship. But we never talked about this. And I lack that sense of just having this be a normal part of life. So anytime sex came up in our home, it was kind of like this taboo. What are we talking about? Why is that coming up? And it just created in me this uncomfortableness with my own sexuality to even talk to people, which then can easily lead you into those problematic behaviors. So if your dad is listening, just find normal ways while you're on a hike to bring up, you know, how are you doing with your cell phone and what's going on and just make it part of life because that's that's what it is for us. And if you can model that, you know, your kids, and here's the other thing I'll say, in that moment, they may not respond well. And that's okay. Like they may not become this open book and just share all these things with you. But if you will keep at it, you are creating a space in their brain where they go, oh, I can talk about this with this with dad. And what'll happen, here's what I can almost guarantee you, is at a later point, maybe a couple days later, maybe a couple weeks later, they'll come around back to you and they'll ask a question or they'll bring something up. And I tell you, that's your goldmine moment where you're like, now it's happening because I've started the conversation and I didn't make it weird. And I just said, hey, anytime you want to talk, I'm here for you. Sooner or later, it's going to come around for them. And they're going to say, hey, Dad, you know, what about this? Like now you're getting it because you're creating safety for them to bring those things up. Well, you know, the way we say it is, you can't mold dry clay. And so when that, when that pliability happens, you have applied, if you will, the oil of the Holy Spirit, Kevin Lehman, the great psychologist calls them teachable moments. And one thing I've discovered as a dad now, grandpa is a teachable moments never happen at convenient moments. Yeah, so true. And then the other thing, you know, the awkwardness, the awkward bad just cracks me up, man, awkward moments because my dad was that way and kind of old school, you know, and hey, we're going to, you know, sit down, son, need to talk to you. Well, that wasn't normal in our relationship. And and then, and then there's the whole thing of what we think we need to do is lay down the law. And one of the things that we've discovered over the years in our ministry of semen, I know you guys have discovered the same thing, Nick, is that when there's more law, there's less love. Mm hmm. When there's more love, there's less law because love actually completes it. And, and when you really love, then you'll do these things because you're going to lay down your, you know, a guy said to me one time, he said, I'd do anything for my kids. I said, uh, you take a bullet form. Absolutely, man. I'd be the first, I'd jump. It would, I wouldn't even think about it. I'd jump in front of somebody who was going to hurt my kid. I said, then what are you doing with porn now? Uh, well, that's a whole other, it's a no, no, no, that's taking a bullet. It's, you know, you dealing with your porn issue addiction obstacle is the same as taking a bullet for your kid. Now, you're going to gird up your loins and do what you need to do, or you're basically saying you can shoot my kid. I don't know how much you're planning to say that. And that's like, uh, pure desire dot org. That's why I appreciate what you guys do. Now, some of this sounds really complex. I mean, how, how much do I have to study this? Am I going to have to go through a semester of stuff? You know what I'm saying? The sounds of complex chemicals, chemicals and dopamine and, and all these different things. Yeah. Nick, maybe I can't do it because it's too complicated. Well, some of the truth is in God's beauty of creation, we are complex. And that's, I think, an error that we can make in Christianity, is we want to simplify things to three steps to this in four weeks to that. And I don't know if I would call it complex as much as it is multi-layered. You know, your brain, your brain doesn't change quickly. And I think we all know that. I mean, how many people listening have gone on some kind of diet or fast or fat or, you know, like you cut sugar out of your life. And you do that for a month out of willpower. When that month is over, what are you doing? You know, you're back down in the coax and the cookies and the cake. And because there's these ingrained patterns of how sugar tastes and how it makes us feel and what we like. And, and those patterns don't change quickly. And so, you know, most of our peers are our groups. Obviously, the conquer series, which you're on, and peers are our users. That's a great 10 week study. And we really call that a great starting point. It's an entry ramp to a highway of healing. But for sustained healing for lasting change, it often is a nine to 12 month process about a year journey. And at the end of that year, men can feel equipped to say, I'm not just avoiding pornography. I'm living a different kind of life. The way I view my kids, my wife, the world around me like, it's changing the way I do life. And that's why I'm free of the behavior. And so, you know, I try to challenge men on that because it's like, you know, we'll go to, we'll go to college for four years. We'll get trained as an apprentice in some craft for three years. We'll go to five years. Like, when we think something's worth that we invest, but then when it comes to our personal integrity that honestly has far greater impact on the life we live and the quality of our life, that's where like, well, I just, I just want to fix this tomorrow. It's like, bro, if you took 20 years getting into this problem, I don't think you're going to fix it tomorrow. It may take you to get out of it. Yeah. We want God to be a magician. Yeah. Uh, particularly those of us who may come from a more uh, Penn Cosswell cares matter background. Yeah. Right background. We love this whole band. We prayed and it happened. And then yeah, from it, let's say an evangelical background, we want the seven steps, but we want all seven of them right now. Yeah. Even tomorrow. Yeah. And uh, man, that's, that is so true. Now, you know, if I want to learn fly fishing, you know, I'll go with a guy eight times, 10 times, 12 times, I'll go fly fishing with this guy over and over and over to learn how to just pull my line out of the real properly, you know, all the little nuances. I'll do it over and over and over. But that is so good. Yeah. You know, another way to think of it is like an analogy of learning a new language. Now you could, you could take a crash course on Spanish in a couple of weeks and get a few things down. But if you truly wanted to be conversant in Spanish, it's going to take time and repetition and immersion in that culture and, and that the truth is most of us have been speaking a language of a sex saturated culture our whole lives. Oh, and so looking to, we're, we're learning to speak a new language sexually. And we've got to not only learn the word for things and how the words connect, but we've got to understand sentence structure and how to like, there's a whole lot involved. Now, none of it is that, you know, you don't have to be some kind of scientist to go through this. But it's a process of change and growth and learning that frankly, it is a process. But, but walking through it is the same as anything. It's, it's just a step at a time. And back to your original question, like, boy, it sounds kind of hard to complex. It's like, anyone can do it because day in and day out, it is simple things that we're working on. It's just the longevity of them that creates lasting change. It's small steps, you know, yeah, about it before on Brave Men. You know, small steps are the start of to great destinations and small doors can open up to large rooms. And, and, you know, let me mention another thing, Jeremy and Tiana, Wiles, help and you guys were instrumental in putting together a series called The Conqueror Series. And Jeremy went through one of your groups. That's one of his testimonies with Dr. Roberts, Ted Roberts. At the same time, I think he was in the same group as James Kraft. Could be around the same era. Around the same time. And Jeremy is, is lovely wife. They, they put together a, with Dr. Roberts hosting, put together, I mean, these guys worked hard, and they put together a series called The Conqueror Series. And we actually have it on our store. It's zoom in, dot men. And you guys have got it there. Pure desire.org. And I think they're are they cutting it into some shorter pieces longer. What they're doing is putting it on a streaming platform. So it's available online, online now. Fantastic. So yeah, if you still go to conquer series dot com, you can find out all about that. Okay, conquer series dot com. That is a fantastic resource. And you'll also meet Dr. Ted Roberts in that video. That's right. He's the host. Is it, is it, was it, because it started as five one hours, didn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And then they subdivided it into 10 weeks just because the videos were so long. People had a hard time watching them and having any time left for discussion. Right. But I remember it seemed to me it was the second one in which he, Dr. Roberts had the brain, actually had the brain out there. Was it the second hour? Yep. Yeah. Now it's sessions three and four brain four. Okay. And he went through the different parts of how your brain works. And it was fascinating. I mean, I was like, how does mesmerize me? I was like, I mean, I didn't forget about, you know, like Jeremy had, I'm actually in that thing come to think of it. You are, you're, you offer some great perspective. When they went to the 10 parts, did I get cut out am I still in there? Yeah, you're gone. No, you're, you're still in there. You're in there, man. That's awesome. Anyway, it's a fantastic series. Now I want to recommend PureDesire.org. And then what I'd like to do, Nick, is kind of like on a regular basis, come back and deal with some specific things in terms of culturally. Like, let's say that there's a new movie out like what was that 50 shades of gray? Yeah. Was not what it was called. Yeah. That was like four or five years ago. And it was like, all these people think, oh, this is so great. And it liberates us. They start to hashtag me to movement because of stuff like that. Yeah. There are so many, so many inconsistencies in our culture. We're on the one hand, we're promoting sexual violence and perversion. But on the other, then on the other hand, we're trying to take a stand against it. And I think that's part of what the call of the church is. And for Christian men and women, it's to be grace-filled truth tellers that can point out the inconsistencies in what our culture is trying to do. It's like, you can't both empower women, but then support a pornography industry. Those two things are mutually exclusive because the entire purpose of a pornography film degrades women. It's violence against women. So we can't say we're pro women and pro porn. Those two things don't work. And yet there are things like that all over our society. And we've got to be people that can see that, can question it. And with the strength of the Holy Spirit, can stand and say, this isn't working. And there's a better way. And that's what the gospel is. The gospel is the better way. You know, we talk about, speaking about pornography and films and movies and videos and all this sort of stuff. I see all the time, I see, well, this goes a porn actress. And this is a whatever. And I'm like, no, she's a victim. Every single listen, Jim Garlo, my great friend who passed her skyline now has well-versed ministry. He said that this way, one day, to us, to a group of us, guys, we were talking about these issues. And he said, you know, he said the thing that protected his mind and began him on a place of really getting righteously angry about it all. He said, was when you realized one day that those girls are somebody's daughter, that somebody's daughter who's being violated, they're not actresses, they're victims. Every single, if you're a man right now, I'm listening and you've dabbled in this or looked at or even have an issue with it, I want to mention Puritizarra.org. But let's say, let's just put it out there, Nick. Every single person you see is a victim. Every single woman you see is being violated. I don't care if they think, or if their mindset is, yeah, I'm financially stable, because of your break, man, you know. Yeah. Well, and for every story, there is of some successful starlet that started in porn. There's 10 more stories of girls that were forced into it in some kind of sex-slavery coercion kind of thing. And when you're viewing that kind of material, the truth is, we don't know. We don't know what's legit, what's been forced, who's there out of choice. And I think it's all slavery, Nick. It's all women that are coming out of a very, very broken place. Even those I see, they're doing it willingly. There's something very broken in them that that's where they're finding their value and identity. Man, that is so right. And so, you know, when we begin to get a perspective about it like that, it's going to shift what we do, how we do it. And then just beginning to build a mindset that's free of, you know, the trigger points or, you know, as two or three different psychologists have talked to about these things. Temptation is an interesting fascinating study in the mind, in the brain, but temptation only lasts about two minutes. Actual fight moment. So it's kind of like fight for three minutes, fight for five minutes, hit that thing, nail it, and then move into a place of freedom and, you know, habits never broken, they're displaced. And so I think that that's part of it. And reading the Word of God, all these things we talk about, it's not just because that's what you do because you're, you know, mindless follower. It's about building our lives to be strong. And that's what it does. So Nick, you know, you're awesome, bro. We appreciate your ministry and everything you do. And I want to talk about these things on a regular basis on Brave Men and love to bring you in and just, you know, say, here's a specific thing that's been happening in culture. What do we do with this? How do we deal with it? But this is a good primer, if you will. Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's talk. Let's, let's learn to, you know, what the way I say it is we need to learn to think biblically about our sexuality. And far too many of us grew up in cultures that frankly detached our biblical worldview and our sexuality. And we've never really been taught or trained how to reattach them to say it's possible to be a biblical Christ follower, you know, and godly thinker and integrate that with my sexuality and go beyond what we, you know, we're talking about earlier, just sexist for marriage and don't do it. And then when you're married, do it. We can develop a much more robust approach that helps not only us in our choices and the way we live, but our families and people around us as well. Yeah. Thanks, Nick. You're awesome. I'm sure appreciate you guys. Yeah, thanks. Awesome to be a part of this, Paul. Really appreciate it. That is intense. How do you go to something and then it transforms you so much that you become a part of that team? Yeah, that's, that's an amazing story. Nick Stumbo, you know, he's just such a straight-up guy. And you know, the whole time I talked to him, he had so many different things wired in. In other words, you know, here's how we do this. Here's how we do that. That's what I love about pure desire. It is a track you can use to get set free of the brokenness of sexual dysfunction in which there's a track. It's not just, hey, hang out. Let's see what's going to happen. Like a lot of church stuff. Yeah. Well, brother, you know, we're going to pray for you, you know, or somebody going, hey, man, you have a cute wife. Why are you doing porn? It's like because it's in addiction. Hello. Yeah. You know, it has nothing to do with that. It has everything to do with self-worth, though, value, filtering. There's all kinds of triggers. And once men learn that. And again, it suggests the conquer series, which is on our website, cmn.men. Yes. And you can get the conquer series that Nick Stumbo and Pure Desire and Jeremy Wiles and Dr. Ted Roberts put together. It is a remarkable, really is a remarkable thing. A number of friends have gone through it. I've watched it. It's great. It tells you how the brains wired, how things go together, or how it gets unwired. You know, how you set up traps for yourself, you know, through through the chemical release of different things. And, you know, the issues of pornography aren't just, you know, in fact, probably the least part of the issue of porn is the actual moment when somebody's looking at it. Yeah. It's the residual effect. It's the marriage that gets short-circuited. It's the thinking that changes. Exactly. It's the fogging of wisdom. There's no wisdom. People, you know, guys tell me all the time. I didn't expect to get here. Yeah. You know, I don't know how I arrived here. I don't know how this happened. Well, let's track it back a little bit. Well, there's this. They go, yeah, I know, man, I just started acting out and this stuff happened. You ever see that TV show where they bust guys who are gone online and they're looking for, they're looking to have sex with young girls. Oh, yes. Yeah. What is the name of that show? Dude, I'm telling you, it's like NBC Dateline or one show. Yes. The tall white guy that's got the kind of, African white name. Anyway, so this guy walks in and every time, man, guys look at him go, dude, I knew I shouldn't have been here. I knew I shouldn't have sent the email. I knew I shouldn't have done that. I mean, every time guys go, I knew. So here's the thing between Chris and I, what we want to tell us and you right now is you know the right thing to do. Let's do it. Go on cmn.men, click on the stuff, find that video, go with us through strong men and tough times at the Christmas and over YouTube channel, go through never quit, get a prayer partner with you in your own church. Make sure you're part of a faith community. Don't be an island. Yes. Because you're gonna get knocked off the island. Definitely. I like that one. Yeah. I'm gonna write that. I'm gonna still down. You're right. You're right. Hey, Chris Shield has been with me and it's been great being with you today on Brave Men. We do have, as Chris mentioned, we have resources for churches to disciple men. We have a pathway to help men become whole and healed. And you'll find all of that at christianmensnetwork cmn.men, part of the global fatherhood initiative and the things we're doing in over a hundred countries around the world helping men become whole and healed. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks for being with me, Chris. And just remember this, hope is alive. Hope has a name. Hope's name is Jesus. You just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian Men's Network. Connect with Paul at cmn.men or write to him at Paul at cmn.men.