BraveMen S3E45: James Craft - The Man Who Lost it All...and Came Back

It is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. It is something that is so commonplace that we sometimes don't even think about it. Pernography seems to permeate the atmosphere of every place we are as men. The issue is that porn is a killer. Quite often it's a silent killer, an unseen killer. We don't see it as it's killing somebody, but we see the effects. And that's what happened to James Kraft. He's a man who lost it all and then came back. It's an amazing story. He was really well known. I'm here with Chris Shields, our producer for Brave Men. And Chris James Kraft is this quite unique story. Well-known guy has a major ministry worldwide global. He's traveling in the world. There are all kinds of things going on. And then a phone call came. You got a problem, bro. And his wife goes, hey, Pastor wants you to come talk. He was about, he was the pastor. Wayne Cordero was stepping down. He was becoming the pastor of Hope Chapel, that massive church in Hawaii. James had everything in front of him. Family there. He's living in Hawaii, bro. The life. I mean, come on, right? The life. It doesn't get much better. The problem was that that he was he was broken. Yes. And porn had had actually broken his life. And here he is with all this talent, all this stuff, and all this great future. And you know, it's gone. I mean, and he had obviously he had porn. It doesn't just start and finish with, you know, something on it on a screen too often it devolves into acting out. Yeah. And that's what happened with James. Definitely. And I mean, that's why transparency is key, you know what I mean? And it's like, yes, for even the people that are out there that do struggle with that, find someone that you can honestly open up your heart to that you can be honest with and say, hey, I'm not perfect. This is the area I'm struggling in. Yeah. And that's why I love James and Terry. Their marriage did not collapse. I thank God for Terry and what she walked through with James. And now they have this amazing family and amazing ministry lives in California and has a ministry that called life on plug, right? Is that my phone plugged? My phone plugged. And this conversation that I had the other day with with James, a man I really liked this guy. He came and spoke at our seaman summit. Yeah, he was awesome. Yeah, he was a fantastic guy. Seaman summit.com every year we have these leadership conferences. In fact, that's on Achieve Lab. Yes, we have a another I was almost going to say it's a sister site, but we don't do sister site. It's a brother site. Good catch there. Yes. So we have a brother site, Achieve Lab.org and on as over 400 curated videos. Yes. Of great men of God. Amazing men of God. So seaman summit.com you can see what's happening with that meeting every year in November. And this conversation I had the other day with James Kraft. Well, well, here's what it's going to do. Chris, it's going to fill every single one of us with hope. Exactly. No matter what the issue, his addiction was porn, but all of us have something. Yes, that we're walking week or that we could be addicted to. We may not have an addictive personality, but we do have a a fallen background. Yeah. And we're still kind of being pulled forward by the love of God and the grace of God. But this thing, you know, he, well, let's just go into it. Today on Brave Mid, you're going to hear from James Kraft and the most amazing story of a man who lost it all and now is on his way back. It's Brave Man with Paul Lewis Cole. Wisdom encouraged for the journey. Talking to James Kraft and James has an amazing story with no need for some time now. New and by reputation first and then some stuff happened. James, you and your wife wrote a book called Exposed. You've launched a ministry novice and then a ministry with marriages, life unplugged. And all of that, I guess, basically came out of your upbringing and you decided someday I just want to help people. Is that how that kind of launched? That's one way of saying it. Yeah, you know what? It's, I had to go through a lot of pain to get there, you know, and because I had my own story, everybody, you know, has a story in life. But my story led me to that place because my heart was always to help people, always. You know, so we are pastoring for years, Paul, and you know that. And so, but there was something dark deep inside of me that was never taken care of. And so literally the gift that God gave me to help people was in my, when I was born, he was, he weaved that into me. Yeah, always been there, but, but it got sidetracked. It sure did. It got higher. And so you write a book called Exposed. It's one of the most unique books I've ever read because you and Terry, your wife, Terry, with an eye in one hour, you guys wrote it. And the way it's written, it's, I, at first I got, I got the book and I went, I know what? I thought I had, I thought maybe it's something somebody had spiked my coffee because on the one side, it's a cover that with your name on it. And then you flip it over and exactly kind of the same cover, but with Terry's name on it. And what you guys did was you wrote a book in which you each explained this story and it meets in the middle. Fascinating book. And in fact, what's amazing about it. And I want to recommend it to everybody called Exposed James and Terry Kraft. What's amazing about it to me was that you were still actually in process. So tell me what happened, man, what happened out of this? You're watching, you're doing great stuff, you're helping people. Yeah. And then the whole thing got hijacked, James, what happened? Well, you know, I was pastoring a church in Hawaii. And it was a large church ball. And you know, it was about 10,000 people. And so I was taking over for a mega, a mega church pastor. I was coming in and I took over the church and in the midst of it, everything came out of what was the dark side of my life. One, I had a porn addiction. And I was a pastor. Now, we got to remember, 50% of pastors in our nation struggle with some kind of sexual addiction. And most of that's porn. 70% more or more men do. So this is not something that what James was in a unique place. It was I was in a place where I couldn't share what I was going through because I I carried this shame deep, deep shame because if I thought I thought my mind, if people knew the real James one, I'd be rejected. And that was one of my biggest fears is a rejection. Two, I'd be seen as a failure. And that was a second biggest fear of mine. You know, and I will lose everything, family, ministry, everything. Well, I held onto that and I try to keep it all closed in perfect tied with a bow my whole life. And it all imploded. And in Hawaii, I was exposed. So you had this perfect Instagram life going on. Yeah. You know, you're playing the IG thing and it's like everything's awesome. And you'd been really well known as a speaker. You got a tremendous gift on stage as a speaker. And then and then you're with a denomination, church nomination, and you're heading up a ton of stuff for them. Yeah. So you become known in your sphere, highly known, recognized. Then your tab does the next pastor of this one of the most significant churches on the face of the earth by man is a significant leader. Meanwhile, parallel to all this, you're dealing that, you know, and I want to get back into this man. We're going to get into this stuff today James. So thanks, you know, first of all, thank you to you and Terry for being honest enough to write that book. And and it may be just crazy enough to write that book. Yeah. You know, yeah, you know, the Paul's name that Terry started writing first. And I thought, I don't want to write that book. Really? I didn't want to be I didn't want to be labeled the rest of my life as a guy that I still was in my recovery. And she was writing things from her journals and she started writing out what God has put on her heart. And I didn't start writing until a year after my first when I first fell. And so that's when God got my heart and says James, I didn't save you from this to be quiet. I want you to help other men. Okay, let me let me let's talk about the tip over point. And then I'm going to go back and see where this started. And then we'll get into some of this recovery stuff because it's fascinating to me. So everybody everybody I think in because we're speaking to guys in in multiple nations around the world. Everybody has some sort of sexual dysfunction because culture contextually comes from this broken filter. Whether it's a religious filter or cultural filter, whatever it is, is jacked up. Yeah. And getting set free in our lives as a follower of Christ, part of that is getting set free in terms of what our sexuality is and what sex means in. And you know, not taking on the definitions of the world. So now, okay, so here's the deal. So you got this parallel thing going on your tab to head up this this great church. And I want to get it because I know this, I know this thing. And if I'm not mistaken, you're driving down a freeway and you get a phone call. Is that right? Well, that is when I started going home. I found out because I would try to manage. I would call back to the state, you know, back to California and just touch base with people where I came from to make sure everything was always good. See, this is where I was trying to contain my chaos. Yeah. I could take it to my grave. Honestly, for some reason in my brain, I thought I could manage. That's how crazy I was at the time. So you're spending all these plates and you just think I can do this. Preaching seven services a weekend, doing all this leadership stuff. I'm doing all this stuff, thinking I'm going to manage my chaos and my secrets of the past. And all of a sudden, I couldn't get through to anybody back there. And I knew I was exposed. I knew it. So I walked into my executive pastor. I sat down in the seat in front of his desk and I said, I can't do this anymore. And he goes, James, I know. I'm all, what do you mean you know? He goes, we all know. We just found out. Oh, wow. And so what happened is that the other side in California came out with it and there was a fair, there was pornography, there was a mess everywhere. So Terry's in California, she's getting ready to know Terry's already in Hawaii. We're all there. We're all there. But the other side, the person like the other side of the affair, the other side of the church, all the counts out, dude. And so and what happened is then like a dead bursting. Yeah, the denominational leaders. I, all the leaders are in Florida. And so they were all together. And then we were came out and they all found out together. Oh, and so I'm in Hawaii. And I sat down in the seat and I said, I can't do this anymore. And I'm just just trying. I just, I'm shaking thinking, what, this is the one thing I've tried to protect and contain. And I can't contain it anymore. I thought I was going crazy. I was only sleeping about three hours a night because I couldn't keep this that people know it was extraordinary. You know, it's all of a sudden, then he said that. I thought, we got on the phone. We talked to the, the, the pastor that was there that was taken over for and and it's some denominational leaders. And they said, this is what we're going to do and I let it through it. And I'll tell you, I got in my car and I had to drive home to tell my why. And now that is where if you ever watch the Congress series and it shows me driving down the road, that's the imagery. I didn't know everything came crashing down. Everything that I built to be safe came crashing down. And I was completely 100% out of control. And I remember driving home and I stood there in front of my wife and I remember telling her and I just, I broke down. And the key was is that she stood there and looked at me like in shock. Obviously, I broke down. And as I reflected back upon it and I've talked about this, there's still me trying to manage me. I broke down not always this for my wife and her brokenness. I was caught. Everything I built came crashing down. So there was still this twisted perspective perspective of James, you're grieving because you've been caught. You're not were fully remorseful of all that has I was so deceived at everything I was going on. And so it wasn't until later that a few weeks later, two weeks later, that I finally just had a, it would look like a nervous breakdown, but a breakdown where the Lord grabbed my heart. And that's when the full impact of everything came in that what have I become? So you get a phone call from Florida. Hey, we've just found out this stuff. And then you go to the office at this church where you're going to be the guy. That was there. I was at the office. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then and then so now the senior guy you're taking over for he gets on the phone with you because he's not there. And everybody's like, okay, here's and what did they say? We're going to here's what we're going to do. We're going to give you six months. We're going to give you no. No. No. Out six months. It was James. We love you. But the greatest care we want to do is best for you. You need help. And it was, I almost felt like, you know, walking into a hospital and I had terminal cancer. Wow. And the doctor looking at me and saying, you need help. And if you don't get help, you're going to die. Wow. And that's where it kind of hit me. Like, what do you mean? See, I still was in deception to see if a little bit of thinking, can I manage this? Can we, can we just deal with this and you know, get James tealed up accountability finally and and then move on. Yeah. No. Yeah. Can we just can I get a reset, take a month off? Yeah. And then I'm good. Yeah. And you know, if I was a doctor or if I was a, you know, a businessman or some kind, yeah, maybe that could happen because I could have kept my my my my profession still going. I'm a pastor. Yeah. It's about, I have to be a man of integrity, honesty, transparency, character. And that you can, you can't disguise that. So I had to step down, obviously, you know, and we, and within a month, we relocated back to California. Okay. And in that is, you know, I'll tell you, I, I, I, when everything came out, Paul, I said this, I'll do whatever it takes. I'll do whatever it takes because I never want to go back there. Wow. So I remember I, I hooked up with Ted Roberts, Dr. Ted Roberts from Pure Desire and he led me every step of the way. I remember, I had to write my whole history out, my sexual history and, and then I had to go down to Honolulu Police Department. This is crazy. And I did a polygraph. And my polygraph showed if I was telling the truth or not, because I did so well. I, but 98% of my life, it was all honest. I was in Ted Chris about everything in this area. No way. I wouldn't let you into this area. So I had to bring truth to this small area, which became a massive, it took everything. Man, it literally took everything. Yeah. Man, this is, there's a lot of layers here. And I would tell everybody, get the book. And then you can get that at James and TerryCraft.com, James and Terry TRI, TRI James and TerryCraft.com and your tools are on there. And then the Novus project came out of that, which is helping guys get off Horn. And then out of that comes this incredible ministry to marriages, life on plug. And then you also do executive coaching and coaching of men. It's, I mean, it's an amazing ministry. It's come out of it. But dude, going to the police department and getting a polygraph, are you kidding me? Now you got to understand Ted Robert. Shoot. And you know Ted. Yeah, he's a Marine. He is. And he says, hey, you know what? Do you really want this? And I said, yeah, I do. I said, I'll do whatever it takes. Because if I don't, and I'm the kind of person is, you know, the type of leader that I am. And I had the privilege of working with some strong executives around the world. And some are Christians and some aren't. And I can talk their, speak their language. But I need to someone to kick me in the teeth and say, you're not in charge anymore. Wow. Because I'm all wrong. Ted Roberts and his wife did that. You guys did Skype calls or whatever it was going on at the time. And then got together personally. And you and Terry just started through this process. But man, we're talking your entire identity. My value system. Everything. But it's crashed. Everything came down. So my, you talk about an identity crisis. I had an identity crisis because my identity was wrapped up in my performance of how I did it. And what I did, I did well. So I was able to accomplish the goals that I had. Yeah. When it all came crashing down, I didn't know who I was. So how long? So now you go through a process. And, and again, people need to get the book. And, and you've also got other tools that they can listen to. And, and if guys are listening to this and you're dealing with porn, you want to get rid of it. This is a good place to go to get started. And pure desires, a great ministry, the conquer series of a guy who became your friend in this process because Jeremy has been very open about it. Went through the same process during the wilds. And he ends up as a filmmaker doing a series called the conquer series, which has now been seen by millions of men. And it's fantastic. And now it's been recut. I know you were part of that. And now there's a whole couple other series going on. And pretty amazing. But if somebody's listening to this right now, the fact is James, we can, and because you were not, you know, you were a young guy, but you were already in your career. How old were you when this tip over thing happened? 3940. Okay. So you're 3940. So if guys are listening right now, you're 35, you're 45. You know, this thing, it's not going to happen overnight. In other words, you didn't just flip a switch and go, I'm good. That's what you wanted to do. And but there was a process, but, but the fact is is that there's hope in this thing, right? How you been? Have you ever seen a man who actually wanted to get set free that wasn't able to? Does that? No. Okay. So if I haven't seen too, if I really want to, yeah, power God and through coaching of somebody like yourself, you can walk me through the health. If if you're willing to give it all, give your whole life to it. I don't know. That's the key this way. No. Guys, what they do is, you know, many times in my life, I can't remember this, Ted Roberts, who is probably the, you know, the Godfather sexual addiction. I'm overcovering that all that. You know, so, but I had to hear him speak at my church about sexual addiction. I put it on conferences and we fought before you actually did. Yes. Yes. I'm sitting on a stool and I'm addicted to it. That's how good I was able to keep a facade that people looked at me like, oh, he has it all together. So I'll tell you until guys are willing to say, I'm throwing in everything. I'm throwing in the towel. I'm surrendering my life. You know, and I tell guys this, you know, when a guy's come to me, I say, you got to give me a year of your life one year. Okay. And I say, you're going to walk me with me every week for a year because I want to experience every season with you, every anniversary, every holiday, and every experience for one year, so that we can see a transformation takes place, not just information. So I think a lot of times, we do, we give guys a lot of information. Yeah. And it never translates to transformation. Hey, this is Chris. Let me take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to remind you of how to get in touch with Paul and Christian men's network and the Global Fatherhood Initiative. You can find all the resources for mentoring and fatherhood at cmin.min. That's cmin.min. Also, you can write to Paul at Paul at cmin.min. That's Paul at cmin.min. We have tremendous resources for churches with special discounts for groups on that website. Everything a church needs from A to Z to mentor and disciple men of all ages and backgrounds. Now, let's get back to this awesome interview between Paul and James Crab. You know, what we say with Christmas network James is that information can become inspiration and easily becomes evaporation. Yeah, exactly a revelation brings an impartation of his presence and a transformation in lifestyle. So what you're saying is, is this is not an overnight thing, but on the other hand, let's say, for instance, that it's March the 1st, okay? And on March the 1st, we start walking towards health and I say, I'm in, I'm all in, whether I'm single or married, no matter if I'm 25 or 55, what you're saying is if I'll commit to this process because it's no different than working out. I know my friend Steve Weather has a workout plan where you can game weight and muscle and all this stuff. And guys commit to it for 16 months. Yeah. 16 months and they've got a lot of money just to look better physically. So you're saying in 12 months, if I started March 1st and we walk together. Yeah. Now in one sense, it sounds like a year sounds like a long time, but it's really just 12 months back to back. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And that doesn't mean, because I know I've talked with Nick Stumbo and and guys like yourself, that doesn't mean I'm not going to mess up in the middle of that. No. So that's like, I had guys and 99% of the time guys mess up in the process, but they mess up in an environment that's safe. All right. Now what do we do with this? Oh, okay. Go down to the source of it. That's the key. What triggered this? Yeah. Where did where did this start? So 99% will actually do a relapse and the other one percent are lying. Yeah. Okay. That's the way that works. That's the way it works. Yeah. Yeah. So, so in other words, the the pathway to healing is not just a straight line. Yeah. Okay. So that being the case, if I start today, my expectation isn't that I'm going to be perfect in six weeks or something. It's in 12 months. And you're going to understand that, because 12 months is still in process. I mean, I'm in process. Okay. And I think there's every man, every man has to understand this. Until the day I die, I continue to grow. But you have to understand with an addiction like this, it's going to take a year for recovery. All right. And then we live it out. You know, Ted Roberts says this to take about two to five years to see if fully take root. But in that first year is when you break free. Yeah. Breaking free is the key. And guys, I'll tell you, I know what it was like when I was in free. You know, and this is I hear guys, I've been in the church for many years of my life. And I've heard this. Well, I just need to confess my sins before God. And I say that, well, yeah, that's true. The Bible says that. And he's faithful and just to forgive you. But if you go to the book of James, and it says, because I love that book for some reason, I just sort of gravitate to it. But it says, if I confess my sins before man, God, it's faithful to heal us. So we can't do this alone. And see, that's where guys, a lot of times will they do is a hide and God, forgive me, God, forgive me, God, forgive me. I messed up again, but they don't have anybody to say. No, we want to. We want God to be a magician. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, God, please do some magic. If I have this formula, and that's where we, you know, we get into all these, you know, if you pray this five times, and I know people aren't saying it's because it's magic or something, but we easily are attracted by formulas that don't require a deep change in our heart. They just, they just require change in the way we do the formula, the way we speak it. Yeah. Well, Paul, I think we've seen that, you know, you and I have been in the church for many years. We have done a good job of setting that system up in the money of Christ. You know, it's like, let's put a program and put a box around it. Yeah. And there's not a viable, understandable, a viable process for an organism, because we're, as human beings, we're growing and we're unpredictable. Life circumstances, a wife might say, you know what? I still don't trust you, you know, for what you've done. And you hurt me. So we have to get our wives in a place of healing. You know, that's what my wife does. And it's like, well, what do we do? And how do we get this? It's so complex. But I'll tell you, Paul, if guys and their wives, I always say this, if the wife can do this with him, it's transformative. Yeah. It will change the legacy of their family. And that's the key is because I know my three daughters, my three daughters, they went through this process with us. They knew what was going on. I had to confess to them when I relapse. I remember, I relapse three times and the first part of my recovery to born. And so I remember, my wife said to me, James, you had to confess within 24 hours if you do. And if you do, if you confess, in a way, you could sleep on the couch for two weeks. But if you don't confess, you need to find somewhere else to live. Paul, that sounds extreme. But for some, a guy like me, I'm a strong, well man, some guys like me, my will had to be broken. Yeah. That's the only way that my will could be broken. Yeah. And now you were an athlete. You were a great athlete there in California. And you run her, right? I was, yeah, a sprinter with the Fresno State. Yeah. Fresno State, that's big time. That's D1. I loved it. Yeah. I great timing. And then your daughters have different levels of athleticism. Yeah. My oldest, she was down competing as a polevolta or a San Diego State pole graduated. I know why? That's a, and their poles are a little crazy. I mean, now, but she's a sweetheart and she's getting married in October. Wow. And you know, the great thing about it is we, her fiance, we have open dialogue about this. You know, this is called, we, we normalized this conversation so that we give our kids and their kids hope. This is fantastic because guys, guys, particularly fathers of daughters are always like, you know, how do I protect my daughter when she starts dating? Because if a guy comes around and looks anything like I looked when I was 17, I'm going to kick that guy's butt. Yeah. Right? No, yeah. It's not going out with him. I'm close to the door. So the way you protect your daughter is actually open your heart. Oh, yeah. This is, this is huge, man. So it can't just be your words. It has to actually be, hey, honey, here's the stuff. Here's where I messed up. Here's where I made mistakes. Yeah. And in seeing the genuine, this is an old adage, but in seeing the genuine, it's easier to spot the counterfeit. Oh, yeah. So when your daughter sees you genuinely, authentically, she can tell when a guy is not. Oh, yeah. Right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that was the protection for your girls. Oh, and then you know, our family, we, you know, we, we created systems in our own family where we sit around our kitchen table and that's where we have a lot of family business. And we talk about things when we talk about sex, when we talk about, you know, dear friend of ours, Nancy Houston, you know, her well, she goes, don't she's been on braids on the podcast. Yeah. And she's, you know, I remember the time when we started dialoguing about really being honest about even our physical being and how we operate and how it connects with the opposite sex and what God's intention is, it created an openness in our dialogue that my prayer is that more families, and we don't do it perfect. Man, we, we have meltdowns in our house like everybody else. You know, I have a house of all women. Hello. Well, dude, what'd you do in the pandemic for toilet paper, man? That, you know, by the grace of God, we had extra right before things started. Shoot, Dad, yeah, I've got a friend with four daughters. I'm like, dude, man, you are in trouble, bro. Yeah, that's right. You know, me, I was, I was good. I don't have any kids in the house, and all I did was just order about 12 packages of dude wipes, and that's true story too. I've got, I didn't realize they lasted that long, so I've got about two years worth still in that. That's awesome. Yeah. Perfect. But, um, and this is an amazing story, James, and obviously we can't walk through each of the process, but the, the way to start the process to be fully healed of what we know in our own life. I mean, you don't have to tell a guy that he's messed up on stuff. Yeah. You know, you don't have to, Jesus never would around saying, you know, to bad, to, the guys who weren't in church, on church people, he didn't go around going, hey, you're, you, you're a bad guy. The only people he ever called broods of vipers and centers was the religious, you know, uh, Pharisees. Yeah. But, you know, you take a Zacus, and he looks at the Zacus, this bad guy. I mean, this guy's ripping people off. We know what those days of Zacus hit just by his position as a tax collector. He's, he's, uh, he's mafia, you know, yeah. And Jesus looks at the guy and goes, you know, you've got some greatness in you, man. You've got something in you that's remarkable. So I'm coming to your house. We're gonna have. Yeah. It's all household came to faith in Christ. You know, Paul, that, you know, Zacus, you know, the cool thing about him, that when Jesus identified him, everybody hated him. Yeah. Everybody hated him. And he called him by his name. He stopped in the middle of his brown. He called him by his name. Wow. You know, it's, you know, it's significant about him calling him by his name. Do you know that Zacus that, that, that turned his name means pure one? Wow. Wow. Yeah. Jesus would call and out who he really calling out was in him. That's right. And that's what you guys are doing. James and Terry craft T E R I James and Terry craft.com. Novice project, which you've done tons of school assemblies and projects, particularly for young men and women. Yeah. And particularly about sexual dysfunction. And in specific, really helping guys with porn because it's become so normalized in our culture, guys, you know, young guys, we'll just talk about it. Did you see such and such? No, I haven't seen that yet. I'll have to go look at it. Yeah. Which is remarkable to me. But at the same time, you know, it also is going to point up to a guy, hey, here's health. And they're going to go, oh, yeah, that's totally different. I want that. Yeah. And so, so you guys got that project. You've got you deal with marriages. You've got life unplugged. It's, you know, you've got a lot going on. So thank you, James, for walking through the pain of this tip over and then writing the book exposed and then writing the materials you're doing now and the things you, I mean, you've told me some of your plans and they're incredible. And I'd like to come on a few more times, heavy, come on. And we'll go through some one, two, three, do this first. But the first thing really that we've talked about in this whole story is you have to come to the end of your, of your BS. Yeah. You just have to come to the end of your BS and go, okay, I'm done with it. Yeah. And, and if it doesn't happen, if you don't do it, it's going to happen somehow. Yeah, I had someone tell me this Paul and I'll end with this and he said, James, you can deal with your dirty laundry and you can actually get it washed and do it. And you can make sure you get everything taken care of. Or God's going to do it. He's going to hang it up there and he's on the line. And I'm like, well, I was hung out with the dry. Wow. Yeah. That is a great picture, man. That is a great picture. Wow. Or it's going to be hung out to dry. You know, and that's what happened. But you know, the thing is the fact is James, you made a really brave and courageous decision. And of all people, Terry, your wife made an extremely brave and courageous decision. She stuck. She said, okay, I'm in this. Yeah. Didn't mean she didn't want to leave a couple times. And all this doesn't mean you didn't do some couch time. Oh, yeah. Because you did. But the fact is, is that all of that's part of the process and the journey to get you where you are today, that you and Terry speaking to the lives of thousands of men and women with your podcasts and everything else you're doing. What's a podcast name? The life unplugged podcast. The life unplugged podcast. And then your, uh, now do you have an Instagram that goes with that too? Uh, we do. We just have our personal ones. We do personal at James. Yeah. At Terry craft. Yeah. Yeah. So they do. It's personally. Okay. And then you've got the website James. You know, here's the deal, James. I just pray that every place you put your feet will be wholly grounded. Everything your hands touch will prosper. Thank you. And that God will keep you and Terry and your girls deep within and your future son-in-law deep within the grip of his grace and favor in Jesus' name. Thanks for being a brave man. So good to be here, Paul. What a powerful testimony of a woman that stuck with a situation that was nasty. Totally nasty, man. You know, Judy, now I've talked about this and we've met James and Terry and and my wife and our Judy. We've talked about this. How, how woman would feel when she finds out? This is how he's been living. Yeah. You know, that by and large, most of them would, I'm done. Yes. I'm out. It shows how strong she is. Yeah. Because I don't know many women that would stick around. And then they wrote that book together. Yeah. And what was interesting, I told James later as we became friends, I said, you know, uh, reading Terry's part of that book. She was still in process. He goes, yeah, we may have written that book about a year too early. Oh, yeah. We're still, you know, processing this stuff because it takes time and now that's what he's been able to do for other men is walking them through to healing and wholeness. Uh, because you know what, you said it on another program where you talked about the millennial attitude. Yeah. Yeah. Microwave. Microwave. Yeah. Because we want instant gratification with the walking out process. Yeah. That's like, I mean, have you ever put a baked potato in an elven your life? Have you actually ever made anything? What? Come on, man. I'm a millennial, but yes, I have. Oh, you have. Yes. I lived in Washington, DC alone. I had to eat. Well, yeah, no, that's what restaurants are for. No. Okay, we have a budget. I'm a believer. That's true. Yeah. So, but the thing is, is that, you know, it's like baked potato. I don't know what it is. Five minutes. I don't know what the thing is. But, uh, but the fact is, that's what you want. We want it now. And what James and Terry have been able to do for husbands and wives and couples and for men and women dealing with this stuff is help walk them through on a walking it out basis. Yes. You know, it's not going to happen right now. It's kind of like this. I promise you if you'll start walking the right direction, you'll end up the right place. Exactly. And I mean, isn't that what Jesus promises us? Mm-hmm. You know, and that's the reality. He said who, who began a good work is faithful to complete it. Yeah. He didn't tell you a time of when he was going to complete it. He told you that there was a process to this. Yeah. I think, um, I think, you know, I arrived about five years ago. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. Let me on solid there because when, uh, when the lightning is coming to get you, I don't want to be a part of it. That's a good thing. We don't have a BS filter on this mic. We've already been shut down. But the fact is, is that none of us have arrived exactly. And even the apostles and disciples, you know, Paul went through his ministry. He launched it saying, I've been called to be an apostle. Yes. And, uh, kind of large in his thinking, the last time he wrote a letter, he said, I'm a slave. Yeah. I don't, yeah. I'm a slave to Christ. Yes. You saw, I just, you know, and in other words, the, the greater he became, the more humbly became the smaller he became. Yeah. It's amazing. And so James Kraft, what a great story. And again, I want to mention his ministry, his book, get a hold of them. And you can find links to that at cmn.man. And we sure appreciate you being with us and, and be with us in the event. Go on cmn.man, look up events and find out when we're going to be in your area. Also, there's Facebook groups, Monday Night Men. We've got the, uh, never quit book that we're going through on Monday Night Men. That's on the Christian Men's Network YouTube. And that thing is being propagated with some great content. Yes. And then AchieveLab.org, which has a curated site of over 400 different videos of some of the greatest teachers in the world. Yes. And, uh, RT Kindle, uh, John Bevere, Jack Hayford, right on down the line. And, uh, now we've got some other stuff coming down the line on our Christmas Network Facebook. Yes. We've got all kinds of guys doing devotionals for us. Yep. We got it. Pretty amazing. Yeah. I'm really excited about the Jordan Durso. Yeah. Jordan. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a great younger guy. Well, I mean, hey, he brought a great word. Yeah. He did. He always has these cool little things that he brings. But yeah. So, Christmas Network YouTube on the Christmas Network YouTube, the Christmas Network Facebook, uh, Christmas Network on IG on Instagram. And, uh, and then, and on your personal Paul Lewis Cole, L O U I S Paul Lewis Cole. Hey, it's been great, uh, having James on today. And, uh, we pray for James and Terry's ministry. And I pray for your ministry listening today and what you do with your life. Remember this as we close brave men today. Hope is alive. Hope has a name. Hope. His name is Jesus. You just experienced brave man with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at C M N dot man or write to him at Paul at C M N dot man.