BraveMen S3E101: Jeff Zuagg - DadAwesome-God Loves Fatherhood!

Jeff Zog is tall. It's one of the first things I noticed about him. Chris, with me today is Chris Shields, our producer for Brave Men. Brave Men is a production of the Christian men's network, cmn.men. Our desire is to see the lives of men change because strong men make strong families. Strong families make strong churches and strong churches change the world. And Jeff Zog has been a pastor at Substance Church, but he's tall. And so the first time I met him was at an art conference down in I think in Birmingham at Chris Hodges Church. And he says, hey, can we have a minute? And man this dude is vibrant. You'll hear it in the podcast today. He's vibrant. He's excited. I think Danny Rodriguez hooked us up who at the time was in Peru. And so we started talking and but the first thing he walked up saying, you know, he's tall guy. But man, he's his vibrant. He's fun. He's great. He's got a young family. He's a young guy. He's cranked up. And he was doing intentional ministry at Substance Church with young people and started this podcast called Dad Awesome. And it just blew up, man. And there's people all over the world listening to it. He's having a huge impact. And I'm one of his cheerleaders. You know, I'm a fan. I'm a fan. Yeah. Is that is that a thing? Yeah. Is that a thing today? Yes, that definitely is. I'm not just a I'm not just a liker. You know, have people hit like. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm going to be on the like thing. I'm a fan thing. Whatever the next thing is. Yeah. A fanboy? Yeah. Fanboy? Dude, I don't know about that one. That sounds. I don't know, man. I don't think that sounds right. I don't think I can do that. That's a real thing. Is it really? That's a real thing. I'd rather be his beat man. Okay. Okay. Because I know what that is. The other one. I'm not sure, bro. Thanks, Chris. Well, thanks. You know, and Jeff's listening to this and he's probably like cracking up going, I can't believe Chris said that to him. Because Jeff's probably like, you know, I really honor Paul. And then there's Chris. Oh, wow. But what was the thing about his website? You loved right away. I loved when I saw the acronym. Yeah. Life. Life. I was like, that is amazing. That's you. Yes. That's you. You've always got these. Well, Paul, you know, love means. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Love acronyms. Yeah. Okay. We're in this one's life. What is it? I am loved. I'm intentional. I am free and I enjoy. I enjoy my kids. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I enjoy my kids. Yeah. I knew I'm well. That's a fatherhood thing. Yes. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just I enjoy. That's kind of the opposite. Sometimes a fatherhood, right? It's like, hey, I enjoy I'm out. Yeah. But I enjoy my kids and life. I am loved. I am intentional. I am free. I enjoy my kids. This part of his mission statement. Yes. Right? Yes. Dad awesome. Dad awesome.org. And he's got a bunch of episodes. Dude, this guy's way ahead of us. He got like 178 episodes. Probably 190 or something now. I don't know. Yeah. He's cranking them out. Yeah. But they're good. Yeah. And I also love how he has on his website. Our Heavenly Father is passionate about fatherhood. Because it's so true. Psalm 78. Well, he is the father. Yeah. He is the father. And that is the picture that Jesus gave us when he said, hey, pray like this. When he taught the the Lord's prayer. Well, that's it's really the disciples prayer. It was the Lord asking telling us, here's how to pray. And Jesus said pray our father because father was we all think in images. Yeah. We don't think in words. We think in in hieroglyphics. We think in images. And father was the highest image that God could give to you and me to think of him as I love you like a father. So rather than praying, oh great wonders, wondrous creator, oh great sovereign of the universe. He said, no, make it familiar, personal. And I'm going to give you an image of who he is in your life, our father. And that's what I love about that. Awesome. And Jeff saw it. Yeah. Because he's taking that and pushing it out there. They've all got also got this thing called fathers for the father of the list. It's a bike ride. And they're in five cities in 2021. And so this is something to get a hold of. It's on the dad awesome website. And and be a part of this. They're going to many apolis front range Colorado front range. I don't know. It's someplace in Colorado. Yeah. Well, click on it and you'll figure it out. And then New York, New York, Scottsdale, Arizona, Philadelphia, PA. And so you could go to one of those. Take your bike. Yeah. You got a bike, your bike. I don't have a bike yet. And now yet maybe for this. Yes. I'm down. Are you down for this? I'm down. Would you do the biking? Yeah. Maybe you should get one. Yeah. Talk about it. Really? Yeah. Dad and I are talking about getting out of here. Are you really? We loved the ride. That would be awesome. Yeah. Because you're outdoors. I've got two different bikes. We've got the trail bike, which is on the Monday night men's set. Yes. And then so I've got the off road bike. And then I've got the street bike, which I've got this huge tire, which means I'm just pushing like crazy to try to get this thing down the road. It's not like those skinny tire little guys, which I think this thing is come to think of it. See, I don't have that much experience with that. Yeah. So I'm not throwing Jeff under the bus, but I am saying my balloon tires, that's, that's, that's a real man right there. Anyway. So they're doing a great work and love having Jeff on. He's just, you're going to love this interview. He's one of the most vibrant men I've ever met. He's passionate about his family and about helping us as men grow strong families. And so for the Christmas Network, see him in. Men is our website. I'm thrilled to have today on the Brave Men podcast. Our great friend, Jeff Zog. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. I'm with Jeff Zog with Dad Awesome, the podcast, adding life to the dad life. And Jeff, you know, with no need to utter for a little over a year, a year and a half, something like that, but I feel like with no need to utter for years. And Dad Awesome, an amazing podcast. Let me ask you something. Is this pretty cool because here you are, father of three little girls, and you start a podcast and you name it after yourself. That's hilarious. That awesome. And there's your photo right in the middle. That awesome photo. You know, that is funny because for the longest time, didn't like the name that I named it because I was just over and over. I kept saying it's about us pointing to a dad who is awesome, which is our Heavenly Father, right? But I now I have realized that by being an awesome dad, that's the best way to mirror and pass along to my little girls that they have an awesome Heavenly Father. So now I'm a little bit more embracing, trying to step into being dad awesome, but it's a, I'm conflicted. I'm conflicted. Yeah, but what you do is you set yourself up a target that was big enough that you've got to do this because your, your oldest daughter is how old now? She's six. She's probably old enough to go. Is that a dad awesome move? Yeah, it's funny. My wife will say you should use the, hey, that's not very DA. That's not very DA. So my, my daughter has not started that yet, but it's coming, it's coming. Shoot, that's great. And I love tagline you did on one of your videos. And it, and it's taking average or lame and making it awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the heart is we as dads can either survive and just kind of get through this season of at times chaos. And I don't know what I'm doing. Or we can say there are moments to be made. And I can actually create awesome, create awesomeness for my kids and get their eyes shining. And that's our, when kids eyes are shining, you know, they're the trust with their Heavenly, with their Father, the, the, you know, the, the, they're drawn, the closeness, just, just ratchet up when the, when the kids eyes are shining. So that's my, yeah. What is it that a dad, you know, with either, you've got three girls, but, but you also are an expert in child rearing and children because you're a pastor, children's pastor, you're an expert in this area. You're considered somebody that people go to for an expert advice and wisdom. You know, what is it that about a dad that does that to a child? And when you see that spark? And what is it that dads do that kind of quench that spark? What are, what are the key things? Yeah. Oh, great. I mean, great question. And one of, one of the, the, the first big prayers that we prayed is that dads would move from two hour per day dads to four hour per day dads. And it's, at the time, doesn't really matter the exact time. But what about dads that would double down their, their presence and their being with their kids? Because we, we just know that that, that factor alone that love is spelled T-I-M-E. Wow. Really, we gotta be, we gotta be together. We gotta be present. So dads that are willing to, again, turn the dials in other areas of their life from personal hobbies to work pursuits, you know, career aspiration. If they're, they're willing to turn some dials to be present more to spend more intentional time with their kids, that, that a dad, again, that moves from a two hour per day dad to a four hour per day dad, they, they gain 13,000 extra hours in the, in the 18 years their kids are at home. So, so that's probably the first, the first area. I'm just like, how much time are you spending? And then again, it's your heart and your mind. Are you really there? Are you present? Well, what do you think? Don't you think that's a big part of it? Because I know a lot of guys would say, no, I'm there. I'm there. Yeah. And yet the national stats in North America, where I live and where you live. The national stats are the average dad actually is fully engaged six minutes a day. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, I mean, it's, it's devastating when you see those stats. And here's, I think the difference, a dad that loves being a dad are present to make, to have those dad moments with their kids, a dad who is frustrated with being a dad, a dad. And this is back to the classic John 10, 10. The devil wants to steal, kill and destroy our passion for fatherhood. And, and so instead of thriving and causing shiny eyes with our kids, instead of, and again, you can measure this by a dad's eyes. But dad's eyes are shining. Then their kids' eyes are going to shine. But if, if you're just present and you're getting through and you're complaining about the dad life, then you're not, again, you're not actually adding life to your family. Wow. So that would, that would speak of, you know, that, that before you talk to your children about God, talk to God about your children. Absolutely. You know, that would speak of, really, I need to work on me before I work on them. Yeah. We have, sometimes as dads, we have this thing of man, I gotta make him into a man or I'm gonna help her be the, the woman. And we start working on them before we really deal with our stuff. Would you agree with that, Jeff? Yeah. It's a choice. I mean, we really, as dads, we have a choice. And it actually, it, it, it says in Deuteronomy 30 that we get a choice between life and death, blessings and curses. It's Deuteronomy 30, 19. Now, and it says, choose life so that you and your children may live. And that's why we say, add life to the dad life. It's, it actually is a choice that starts with the dad. And that stepping into life has to do with our heavenly father and our relationship with our heavenly father, experience, love. And you know, Jesus, he was, God prayed over Jesus when he was baptized. He said, you are my son, whom I love and in you, I am well pleased. And if we can receive those three things of identity and love and pleasure from our Heavenly Father, then we get to give that to our kids that they'll know their identity as our sons and daughters. They'll know that their loves, their dad loves being a dad. And that, that's critical. And then the third, they'll know that um, their dad takes pleasure. Like, like, actually, he's pumped just because they're his. And not because of what they do. And that spins it away from earning love from their father. Yeah. And, and I guess, you know, for me, I, I see that most in particularly in athletics, where you'll see a dad just getting on his kid, like, why did you do that? And why did you run there? And I'm like, dude, you know, that kid, that kid's seven. He ran there because he doesn't know where else to run. You know, it's a little football thing or basketball. Why did you shoot that shot? Well, because he's seven year old kid. In fact, he's only been on the earth seven years. You know, that's it. And so, and, and then they're frustrated. And I've seen dads walk away from their kid going, oh, man, that was a stupid shot. And then walk away. And it's a, you know, the atmosphere, everything lives or dies based on an atmosphere, right? That's right. And fathers are an important part of that atmosphere in any home. Yeah. So, all right, is what are our responsibilities as a dad? I know I'm, I'm jumping ahead to different things. And this is so deep that people have written volumes and books about it. But, man, I think we need help right now. What is it that that I can do to create the right atmosphere in my home? So, my kids have that spark that you're talking about. It can't just be being there. That's right. That's right. And most of us are accidentally passing on the same atmosphere that we experienced from our own earthly father that we experienced an atmosphere of either, I'm present, but I'm watching TV, or I'm here, but my mind is somewhere else. We experienced a present, an atmosphere of passive fatherhood. And so if that's what we experienced, we're naturally going to bring that forward. And we, that's where it's a choice to change the trajectory of your, again, it's this idea that where you're, where your focus is, that's where your heart will be. Like, like if our focus is, I get these amount of years to invest in the greatest return I could ever invest in is my kids. And every single person I've gotten to interview over 100, 100 people now on the, on the, on the dad awesome podcast and they're all, they'll all say to me, I wish even really intentional dads will say, I wish I could go back and turn some dials and invest more to, again, closeness with my kids and relationship with my kids and moments with my kids. So I think the first thing for atmosphere create, like creating an atmosphere in your home is acknowledging the baggage that you carry forward from the atmosphere that you experienced and, and choosing making a choice of your priorities to, to say, no, I'm not going to walk that out. And a lot of us as well saw a dad who, who lived in isolation did not have brotherhood, other dads around them, putting their arm around him saying, I mean, I'm in this with you. Like most of us did not see a dad with strong brotherhood, strong relationship and community. And, and so if we're trying to walk it out alone, I think any of our best intentions, actually, I actually say that isolation is kryptonite for, for, for the dad life. It's kryptonite. It will take us, it'll take us out, it'll take us out every time and all of the models throughout watching Jesus and, and looking all through the Bible, say that like we have to have brotherhood to do this well, to walk this out well and to have any longevity. Yeah. So then, so now, what about, we're talking about atmosphere and a dad. What do I do? What, what do I do in a real way? Here's, here's my scenario is I'm a dad. I want to do this right. My kids are getting a little bit older and I come to my senses, okay? Or I come to a church like yours and, uh, and I'm like, oh man, I gotta get this together. So Monday night, nine o'clock, I tell everybody to shut all our digital stuff off or eight o'clock. Everybody come in here. Well, you know, I'm disrupting things. It hasn't been, by the time everybody arrives, everybody's upset. I'm mad that nobody's, all right, we're reading the Bible. And how do we actually move into this, particularly when we didn't start it when they were like six months old, Jeff? How do I start into this so that it becomes part of who we are? Because I mean, here's the thing. I think all of us recognize, yeah, I would really like my children to know how to pray, uh, to know who God is and, and to have some sort of sense of, here's what the Bible says. How do I move into that, Jeff? I actually think it's less about telling and teaching and coaching. And again, I'm from a, I've got six years of practice at this, right? So my oldest is six, but I think it's far less about creating intentional moments of growth for your kids. And it's more about what do they see is their dad's priorities and how do they see their dad praying? How do they see their dad reading his Bible? I think they're, they're watching way more than they're listening. So, so that's, that's my encouragement to most dads is, is again, work on, put your own, if you're on that airplane, put your own, uh, breathing mask on first before you're starting to force it on your kids. Wow. And so, so let's, let's start there and start a good picture. They're, they're watching. They're totally watching. And even in the moments if your kids are resistant on, I don't want you to read a Bible story to me before bed or I don't want you to pray over me, like, start praying over them while they sleep. Cause, cause a sleeping child is not going to force you out of the room to, to lay hands on them and pray for them. And, and there is, it's so simple. Read, you could open your Bible to any chapter, any ver, just, just read for 30 seconds a minute. You'll find some verse with a truth that you could pray that verse over your kids. They out of Leviticus. Yeah, yeah, maybe there's, I mean, there's so many, there's so many, again, words of life. Are we dads, are, do we speak life over our kids? Do we pray life over our kids? Do we model life? And, and that looks, I know I'm still even got an expression of adding life to the dad lives. Like, what exactly do you mean? But again, it's, it's, are we, where are we putting our attention? Are we growing? Are we seeking the Lord and prayer? Are we praying over there? Things that kids will notice and your, your wife's going to notice as well. You know, I don't know if I'm comfortable with this, Jeff, because you're putting a lot of responsibility, responsibility on me as a dad. That's the dad. Yes. Right. Oh, man. My kids ought to just be doing the right thing. Heck, I bring him to Sunday school. Well, and that's, and that's over right now. I mean, this we can't even do that now. So it's, you just got, you just got knighted. Okay. As a kids pastor, dad, you've been, you've been officially knight. You've been ordained as a kids pastor in this time of COVID-19. We all have. Yeah. And I think that's going to change a lot of things anyway, because I think it does make us think more about what the home life is like. Yeah. You know, I, it jokingly said the other day, and I've said it to a number of times is we're going to have a baby boom, you know, in December and January through. But the issue for me, and I don't know what it is for you is we're going to have a divorce boom in the summer. Yeah. Because of the, the closeness and, and the cracks in the dam, if you will, they were there. They're unseen. It caused the dam to break. And you and I have talked about it, you know, child abuse, we know is up. And yet the reporting is down because they're not in school. And so it's not seen. Domestic violence reports are up 24% on average. There's one hotline on the east coast that is up 300% in the number of phone calls are handling. So they're, they're recruiting people just to take calls, you know, at home and that kind of thing. So we know that pressure magnifies. So you say, you know, so let me give it some background, okay, some background. So, so you are a children's pastor in, in the cold north. That's right. Right. Tell us the name of the church. Yeah, that's pastor's name and so forth. So Minneapolis, Minnesota, and so this has been home for a couple decades for me. And yeah, love, it's been 15 years now. My wife and I have been at Substance Church, our lead pastor, Pastor Peter Haas. So grateful. So I've, yeah, been here for almost since the beginning of the church. I've been a pastor for almost seven years now here. Wow. Now it's a legendary church and Peter's tremendous leader in pastor. And he speaks in the lives of other pastors. So I'm thrilled you're there. And then your wife's name, yeah, her name's Michelle. And I've got three girls six three and one. Yeah, six three and a year and a half, right? Yeah, that's right. And so, so you, you have hands-on experience now. That's right. Yep. And so in some ways, it'll be interesting. I know you journal. It'll be interesting to watch that awesome in years ahead and how you'll go back to like show number eight and go, yeah, shouldn't have said that. What was I thinking? Right, right. What was I thinking? And so you're up there and talking about your father just went to be with the Lord right around Christmas time, wasn't it? Thanks. Yeah, it's just a just a week before Christmas that isn't now in heaven. Yeah. Yeah. And he's with the Lord. So this is a whole new journey for you. And and but tell me about growing up, where'd you grow up? Yeah, I grew up in Northern Wisconsin, a little town with 1600 people. And we built as a family. Four of us kids, we built a resort in the Northwoods. Yeah, a resort. So yeah, we took a abandoned Jewish boys camp and tore all the cabins were abandoned and destroyed. So we built on the land to kind of start a fresh and built seven Swiss style chalets and kind of ran that resort as a family growing up. Really? Isn't that a movie? Didn't I see that? Yeah. But you know, it sounds like a movie where like Steve Martin comes in as a dad or something. You know, it's a little if I've seen it, but maybe it should be. Yeah, it feels like one of those. That's a what a cool thing to do. But goodness, Northern Wisconsin. So so then you guys built that. You've got three siblings. That's right. And your dad, dad and mom. Yep. You have my parents love the Lord and they they might have paid me two dollars an hour for for all that hard work up there. And back in the day, that wasn't bad. You're right. You're right. You know, I think a lot of people still get a dollar just to motor lawn. You know, so it's a privilege. It's a privilege. It's a privilege. I'm teaching you son. Yes. How to be a man. Yeah. Well, that's a that's incredible. And then where do you see you went to high school in Northern Wisconsin, man? That's right. Yep. Went to public high school up there. Played a few sports there and then over to Minneapolis for for college went to Bethel University over here in the church. Okay. And did you play now when you were in Northern Wisconsin, did you play hockey basketball? So hockey basketball, rancross country, played golf, kind of all, all the above. But I would, that's like, you got six weeks of a year that you could play outside. Yeah, it was snow, snow season. But it was, it was free. That was why I played golf. It wasn't that great at it, but I get to play free golf every year. So that worked out for me. Awesome. And you're taller. So you would have been, you had a lot of fun at basketball. Yeah. Yeah. But you were a big target in hockey. Yeah, it was pretty easy to get my legs chopped out. Great. Yeah. And then you moved to college and why'd you go to, why'd you go to that school? Yeah, it was actually my youth pastor really invested in me in Northern Wisconsin around just these passions for leading worship and playing the guitar and leading moments of song. And so I, that was the main reason was actually it was, it was to go the apart of some of the worship ministry that they were doing at at Bethel. And then I did, I was business degree. So study business, a lot of leadership learnings there and did a minor entrepreneurism. And yeah, so, so what loved the, loved all of the campus ministries, I got to be a part of there. And that's where I met my wife. So major bonus going to college and meet my wife, Michelle. It seems, seems to happen. They, they used to, the joke used to be, they didn't call it a Bible college. They called it a bridal college. Yeah, it's real. But at the same time, I mean, what a, there's no better place. I was talking with Anthony Fleming last night, who came over to Liberty University from Australia and met his wife there. And now he settled in New Jersey past her in a great church. Yeah. And his wife had gone there. She's Brazilian Portuguese background. So, uh, so that's an amazing journey to do that. But, but I want to go back a little bit. You had a youth pastor who invested time in you. Tell me about that journey. Yeah. Mel Ellenwood, I was a seventh grader. And he taught me to play my first four chords on the acoustic guitar. And he gave me, again, he gave me opportunity. He had his own kids to invest in. But he, he played, he did play an extension dad role to me and not only taught me, uh, you know, a craft of playing the acoustic guitar, but then gave opportunities to a seventh grader. It was a, you know, both junior high and senior high were in the same youth group. So I had seniors in high school that I'm, I'm leading working on small town, small church. Oh, for sure. Yep. Yep. So this guy's probably got a full time job somewhere. So in this case, the church did have two pastors. So he was the associate youth was his full time focus. Yeah. Okay. So he did associate youth and probably did a ton of other stuff. Oh, yeah. And then, and then he ran the pickup truck to sweep the parking lot. All the things when it snowed. Yeah. Okay. But, but the fact is this guy invested time in you. And he taught you four chords is what, which is all, we know that's all you need for rock and roll. That's right. Four chords, four chord progression. Once you learn that, that's amazing. So this guy actually influenced your life. You end up going to a college. And, and let me fast forward. Now you're doing that awesome because this guy takes some time to teach you guitar chords. I'm sure he talked to you about life, but I mean, sometimes we overlook these little things. Don't we Jeff? It's, it's so true. And after about a decade of, I lost touch. He's, he's serving as a missionary in the Czech Republic. I lost touch. I reached back to him and interviewed him at the, at the basically was episode 60 around in there. Mel Allenwood. And I got to interview and just say thank you to my youth pastor for again, the ways that he, he gave me a huge boost as far as if you think about men in my life, you know, leaders, men or women that give you a boost forward to chase your dreams and your passions. He was absolutely absolutely. What a cool is that? I mean, here's a guy that could have said, I'm stuck in a little town. I'm supposed to be doing this. I'm supposed to be a missionary in Europe or, you know, Eastern Europe, whatever the thing was, it was stirring in him. Sure. And instead, he grabbed a hold of the opportunity and invested in the lies. How many people, your youth groups were combined. See, you've got seventh graders and seniors. Yeah. All the same group. And how many were in that youth group? Yeah, maybe 30 or 40. 30 or 40 people total. So you were basically the biggest church in the region. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really something, man, for those of us who grew up closer to larger cities. And yet, so this guy didn't, didn't do that whole thing. Well, I shouldn't be here, shouldn't do any investment in you. And I'm sure others have some of the same stories that came out of there. And there's so many, I mean, to me, for myself as a dad, that the, the moment of doing what you don't see the reward in the short term, my youth pastor didn't see the reward in the short term. I wasn't actually, I wasn't a good worship leader. I wasn't like he invested in all the sudden. In fact, he wasn't even my youth pastor during the majority of me leading worship because it was, it was like three, four years. And then he did get the call to go overseas. Yeah. And so he didn't actually receive the long term, but the, the compounded impact of an investment. And that's what I, I just want to continue to remember as a dad when I don't see the change in my girls for a year, for two years, for five years. I'm still, I'm, it's, it's, again, agricultural, right? You're planting seeds. And they, they will, the, the return comes, the return comes. Yeah. Well, the return comes in either direction to Jeff. Yeah. You know, we can do things because children may not always listen to you, but they will always imitate you. And, and we know that there are seeds that we have planted as fathers, including, you know, dads who bail, you know, dad, you know, I've talked to so many men and you have two, uh, whose dad left when they were two or four, or, uh, or didn't show up until they were nine, and then was there five years and then left again. You know, that kind of thing. And we hear that story a lot. That seed, just that, not showing up as it was a seed in their lives that caused them to act out. And now many of the ones I talked to were followers of Christ now. But, but they can tell you how it, how it bent their lives and how it changed. In fact, I have one guy, I'm trying to remember who was a real well-known minister, a real, you know, well-known nation watch. And he said the difference in his life, because his dad left when he was nine. So in his 13, there was a, a pastor, an associate pastor who took him out for like a Coca-Cola or something, you know, soft drink. And sat there with him at this little place and told him, you know what, you're an incredible young man. You have great gifts in you. And he said probably total, that man invested three hours in my life. Yep. And he said, I, in fact, he's a child psychologist, does all this stuff. He said, he said, I am who I am today because that guy shifted. He said, now he didn't become my mentor. He said, there's others that were, but that man, he said, I was headed totally wrong direction because of what my dad did. He said, that man just shifted three hours, Jeff. Who couldn't do that, bro? Oh man. I mean, to all the men who were listening to anybody watching this guy, I am going to use the video. So don't pick your nose. Thank you. So that's a word of myself too exact to be careful in this. And we're not supposed to touch our faces anymore anyway. And that's been difficult. And so you know, the average person touches their face 57 times an hour. And that's a whole lot because we're doing this. Yeah. And you're doing that. And you know, so I'm sitting in a safe environment and washed and all that sort of stuff. But the fact is, is yet who couldn't do that, man? Who couldn't do that little thing? Tell me what the key things your dad taught you. Yeah. So certainly perseverance and resilience. And the chasing a dream that he couldn't fully realize could not fully see, but he knew there was a dream to head that direction. Wow. And the ability to stick with it through financial ups and downs, through emotional ups and downs, through things feeling like the wheels are coming off. He just stuck with that dream. And in a bunch of areas of life, he would invest long in the same direction. And yeah, so he's certainly, certainly taught me about that. I mean, he cared for the little guy. You know, he would, he would really would. I'd play pick up basketball with them. And he would take extra time with people who weren't very good on the basketball court. He just not necessarily coaching them to be a better basketball players, but just the conversation and speaking life and just letting people know that he cared. He recognized. He really helped people know they were known to him. And yeah, people still tell me stories about like, well, your dad cared about me and made me feel welcome in that place. That's incredible. You know, I mean, a couple, a couple comments. Did you ever take a charge against your dad? You know, if it, if I did, he would have disagreed instead. It wasn't a charge. So I don't think I ever got credit for a charge. He would have said, now you were moving, moving my feet were moving. Yeah. And you know, shoot, that's funny because, you know, my sons, I would, we all played, we're all played through college. And so it was like, yeah, that was the thing. And I remember my youngest son, Bryce, who was an all-state player. And I go up to guard him one time. And I can't quite jump like I used to be able to go, Dad, don't get around me if I'm getting off the ground. It's like, what do you mean? Just don't get around me if I'm getting off the ground because you can't get out of the way. All right, just play ball here. Take the ball out. Just play. It's amazing. Man, I love those moments, man. You're going to miss those moments, I know, but beautiful memories. Yeah. Hey, this is Chris, producer of Brave Men. I want to take a moment right in the middle of this great conversation to let you know the Brave Men podcast is a production of the Christian Men's Network worldwide in the Global Fatherhood Initiative. Every 180 minutes, a Christian is killed for his faith. Every day, 10 Christians are unjustly imprisoned. More than 25 facilities are attacked. Terrorist G-Hod groups attract 67 disaffected young men every day. Into this chaos, the Christian Men's Network is committed to bringing the gospel of Jesus Christ to men. In 2020, the CNN team pivoted energy and resources from going on site to reaching men online. The result was the tremendous impact made in one of the most persecuted nations on earth, the 2020 Vietnam Never Quit National Broadcast. Now we're ready to take it to the most dangerous nations in the world. The goal is a simple reproducible system with measurable results that will continue for decades to reach the darkest places on earth. Over the next five years, stand with CNN to reach thousands of young men on their streets before they show up on your streets. It will help us continue to reach the lives of many men around the world if you would like us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast and share it. That's the Christian Men's Network in Paul Lewis Cole. Now let's get back to this powerful interview between Paul and Jeff Zahawk. I think this is the other thing what the comment you said, that he invested long in the same direction. Yeah. And he didn't necessarily sit down and say, okay, son, I've made this decision next week. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing this week. You just saw it. You watched it. You actually had to cut down some of the wood for it. That's right. Right. I mean, that's an, that is an incredible comment, Jeff. From what a commendation you know, your dad's name again. Chuck. Yeah. And he, I want to probably the the biggest focus, his prayers in my life since really the last two years, because it was a 100-week journey from when he had brain and lung cancer to when he went to be in heaven. And the journey started the day after I published episode one of Dad Awesome. So it was, it was, he passed away the day after episode 100 launched. And, but the reason I mentioned that is depth and distance. Are these two driving? If I can be a man that keeps growing deeper, my love for the Lord, deeper integrity, deeper commitment and deeper like depth. If depth deeper love to my wife, deeper care for my kids. So depth and then distance is just faithfulness. It's faithfulness. And then all the other things, if we're just again, same direction, long term, faithful father, loving father, we can actually get it wrong a whole bunch. And my dad, we talked about it. He came, I mean, we, some of the last conversations we had, he made sure he was asking to make sure, he's like, you know, I'm really sorry about that. Or I, you know, this really broke my heart that I did this. So he's still and he knew there's forgiveness there. Like he was not a perfect dad, but because he had depth and distance, it makes up for all of our missteps and all of our shortcomings. And so that's, that's, that's my biggest prayer for again, anyone listening, but for myself is, I'd be a dad who is depth and lord and distance faithfulness. Man, that's strong. You know, when I preach that, I'm going to look like a genius, man. See, we're going to go, where, where did you get that guy? I know I was just, you know, I'll just do a revelation chapter one. You know, John, I was in the spirit. You know, the Lord told me right down. It came to me. Yes. Yeah, it came to me, you know, magnetically. Yeah. Anyway, that's, that's what an amazing testimony to your dad. And, and I think for all of us as dads, listening and watching right now, we do want to be remembered. We do want to leave a legacy. And one of the things that we've talked about at christian men's network for years is that what a man does in life becomes history. But what he puts into motion becomes his legacy. I want to mention dad awesome dot o r g dad awesome exactly the way it sounds dot o r g. And your photo next to dad awesome is not at the top of your website. I was just kidding about that. But you've got some great videos on here. I thought this, I thought the video about launch ramps. Oh, yeah. Was you've got these way of coming up these cool little phrases and stuff. And, and love what you're doing with this Jeff. I'm talking to Jeff Zog with dad awesome adding life to the dad life, choose life so that you and your children will prosper. Is that right? That's right. That's pretty 19. And tell me about the ride for the fatherless. Yeah. So a year ago we started this campaign called fathers for the fatherless. And I had never ridden my bike more than, you know, 30, 40 miles and a group of friends. I knew head over a series of weeks. Well, that's it. You do that in one day. Well, this is the deal. When you when you get around, I want you guys to miss this. When you get around passionate brothers, other other dads in this case that are like, let's do something. Let's do something epic. Let's do something hard. In this case, it was we decided to ride 100 miles on our bicycles on father's day weekend. So we said, Hey, on a weekend, it's about consuming. Let's grill that rack of ribs. Let's let's start and watch a football game. Yeah, we said, Hey, on that weekend, let's actually do something hard for kids in a hard place. So that's why we say it's fathers for the fatherless. And we bike to 100 miles. And last we raised $17,000 for kids without dads. And yes, we said, wow, it works. We actually grew in our brotherhood. We do train rides. We would actually, because we'd share vision and mission around kids that are fatherless, we would actually as dads, we would go home to our families after those training rides and we would be more intentional dads, because when you're in proximity to pain, thinking about it. Yes. And so this year, we were like, let's go 100 dads, biking 100 miles and let's raise $100,000 this year. We're ratcheting it up. Fathers for the fatherless. We did adjust the date. The ride is going to be at the end of the summer this year, obviously, 29. Because of the lock ins and all this stuff. That's incredible, man. And you also help. It's not only relief there in the area where you live in Minneapolis, but you're also helping some places in Southeast Asia. Is that right? That's right. And orphanage. Yeah, through our partner ministry, venture expeditions, we're feeding again, we're helping with the feeding program and education of kids that are orphans. But yeah, and then we got a partner ministry here, the dwelling place in Minneapolis with single moms helping, yeah, job development and getting them on their feet after actually being in this case harmed by dad. The message violence, which as you and I have talked about, and I think all of us are becoming aware of the shelter in place has become a shelter in hell, or millions of women and children. And so this whole pressure magnifies and exacerbates the issues, the cracks in the dam, if you will, the Grand Teton dam that collapsed in 76. So there were cracks in the in the substructure. And that's what caused it to collapse. And you know, domestic violence up 24% child abuse, child abuse reporting down over 50% because the two key people who stand in the gap for children across North America and in most countries are teachers and medical professionals. And now they're not in connection with them. So this is serious stuff. So that fathers for the fatherless, I think is absolutely awesome. And is there information on your dad awesome dot org website? Yeah, just the fatherless tab on the top. Yeah, that has the information we are hoping for ride in Philadelphia, a ride in Florida, a ride in Iowa, we're launching other rides this year as well. So, so we're still working on the adjustment of all those other rides and what they do land. So, but all those rides are like red, do you do any with leather? Wait, no, yeah, yeah, on a motorized bike. Yeah, motorcycle. You know, because we say it's again, dad's doing something hard for kids in a hard place, I just don't know if it quite works with a Harley. Come on, man. I'll tell you what, if you come to Texas or Oklahoma or any of the southern states is not as many bike riders. That's true. But we have a lot in the area where I live. And then I so I bought a I do off road biking mostly. So I've got the K2 off road bike for that with the double shocks and all that stuff, the all as well guys like. But I got a hard tail street bike. I had a what's the name of anyway, I had one of those racing bikes like you would have. Yeah, you can lift it with one finger real like it's a Contana Roo. Oh, cool. And it started hurting my back. So I got a big tire cruiser. A big tire 20 speed standard cruiser, dad. It is awesome. And I get that, you know, it's got the it's got the flat handles, you know, all that stuff. That sounds perfect. And we get cranking, but it's it's great for around here and around town. And so I love it. And I love what you're doing without fathers for the fatherless. Tell me about what's your biggest challenge? You're working within a church environment. Okay, you're doing that awesome. And to your wife's credit and everybody else involved, including your pastor Peter Haas, they've really supported that awesome, but that's been like a side hustle. Yeah, we say we joke about kids pastor by day and, you know, fatherhood ministry by night and via, you know, my Friday mornings and Fridays, my day off. So, no, my family has they've invested big. My family has invested big in dad awesome. And my wife, she does some of the video editing, my daughter does the graphic design, my six-year-old daughter, does some of the graphic design work. So, so they yeah, it's when I have a picture of them actually packaging all of our thank you packets packets for our guests and in my three-year-old helping tape them up. So yeah, it's it's we're we're in this together. My my lead pastor, pastor Peter Haas, he's been like, we want to see our church launch things beyond and impacting. That's his heart. So, he's got a kingdom mindset. You know, I was on your podcast a while back and, you know, I got the I got one of those packages and had socks in it, dude. Yes. Had socks. I had your name. I don't have socks with a name. That is that I thought, dude, this guy's way out there, man. I just got all kinds of cool stuff. So, tell me within the constraints of a local church, what are the what are the what's the upside with the ministry of children, but what are the constraints that we should probably as parents begin to look at? How should we be helping the ministry of children? Yeah. So, the I mean, the gift of being a kids pastor in a local church is that I the proximity to great pain and hurt. I just see it. I see it every Sunday, almost every Monday, I'm making phone calls to families because something, you know, something came up on Sunday, some kind of whether it's a behavioral thing or different situations that are just there's hard stuff that makes you cry. And so, that really, I mean, dad awesome started out of a place of pain. I've seen too many dads walk away from their commitment to their marriage, their commitment to their kids and the pain in the kids eyes. It's it's one thing to like cheer on shiny eyes, kids with shiny eyes, but when a kid carries pain and the weight of the world that they were not designed, God did not create these kids to carry in to see, again, loss and loss of a marriage of their parents or loss of their dads not even around anymore. Yeah, deeply like the pain is what again fuels passion. So, that is, and I actually think the biggest thing that I want to encourage every family in our church, everyone listening, is if you can get a hold of something that breaks your heart. As a dad, if you can get a hold of something that breaks your heart and and race towards being a part of the solution, a small part, even if it's a tiny part of the solution, your kids see you chasing something bigger than yourself with a deeper mission. When, you know, there's so much so much of men's ministry is around sexual purity and around let's don't do bad things that cause harm. But if we, and you know this, I mean, you used to shared about this when I interviewed you, like if we get a hold of something bigger than that, just like we grab a hold of in our kids heart, they're destiny and we show it to you. That's your quote, Paul. If, if, if the role of how there's the reach into the heart of a child, pull out their destiny and show it to them. But if a dad doesn't know their destiny, if a dad doesn't know their destiny, they're never going to be able to show their kids their destiny. So, so that is what I pray for for every family is that and that's our vision as a church. We say four to seven friends in a ministry. If you can, if we can get you four to seven Christian friends that are cheering you on, you can cry on the floor of their living room, which I have tried on the floor of the living room of many of my friends. If you have the friends and you have a ministry, something that gets you your eye shining because you're a part of serving others in some way, in some way. Like that family is going to go the distance and their kids are going to be dream chasers because they saw their parents chasing a dream bigger than themselves. And it's, it's all, like it's, it's, it's all throughout the Bible. Like we got to get a hold of something bigger than ourselves. We can't just choose life and choose not to do bad things. Like if choosing not to do bad things is flirting on the side of death. Like you're just saying can I just hang out near death. But if you choose life, that means you're chasing something way big. Wow. That's so the just say no sort of campaign thing really is is a negative stroke in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. What I really want is I want people to go towards the just say yes. Yeah. Okay. So love is a greater protection than, than law. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic, man. So as a, as a member of a church, we have a tendency to go, yeah, the kids are over there doing their thing and, and yeah, it's nice. They're doing games and whatever. But really it's, it's an architecture for the future, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, if we, if we do think kids ministry is the time, the hour and 10 minutes that are in a service, again, we get, we, the church gets those kids maybe 30 hours in the entire year or a parent, a parent can invest non structured hours. You're not at work. You're not sleeping like 3000 hours per year. So it's 30 hours versus 3000. So, so again, our prayer is that, that families that we're supporting family ministry happening at home. And that is, it is the, the outsourcing of discipleship will, I mean, it's going to lead us in a really dangerous direction as a church and as a world. If we, if we, if we support an outsourcing mentality from parents versus again, it's a, it's a fraction of the ministry that we're doing in the home with our kids. Man, I'm writing that down, man. You can't outsource fatherhood. You know, as, as a dad, really, when we do this ministry to men, for me, I look at it and I think about what you're saying right now, Jeff. And I think this ministry to men really is the key to a powerful children's ministry in the sense that if we, if we're doing the ministry to men right, then I'm going to be attracting men who would not otherwise come into a church building or church setting. Yeah. And they may come to a thing that we do, maybe a bike ride or a beast feast or, you know, any kind of number of things. But if we're doing it right, it, it brings them and pulls them into an atmosphere of biblical masculinity. And Jesus was attractive. The Bible says in Isaiah, he says, he was attractive to us not because of his looks, but because of his heart. And people, children followed Jesus around. Yeah. And, and people followed him, not just because he healed people, but there was something about him that was incredibly attractive in the Bible says it wasn't just because of his looks or his features or his commanding presence. It was that thing in him that loved without law, that loved generously. And, and that healed people their sins. This is incredible stuff. So, in summation, because I could talk to you for hours, but in summation, what, give me a couple key things that I could do as a dad. Let's say my kids are, are at home under 16, in other words, or 15, which is when everybody starts taking off. So really, when you think about it, you've got nine more years with your daughter. I mean, you've got to rest your life, but she's going to be so busy with after school things and this and that. They're pretty soon. It's going to tighten the windows of time. So, what, what can I do right now? What are the most important couple things that I should do right now for my kids, Jeff? Yeah. And the, and the first one is brotherhood. And it's not, there's no limits. There's no limit to brotherhood developing deeper friendships and mentors in this, like what we're doing right now. If any dad listening, they, all of us can think of one dad who is doing it better than we are. All of us can. In fact, many times we think we're the worst dad. We put that pressure on ourselves. Think of one dad, reach out to them with a text message, a phone call, an email, and say, hey, would you do, would you hop on a FaceTime, a Skype call, a Zoom call? And let me just ask you questions about the dad life. So basically, I'm asking you to become curious and be an interviewer. Don't ask where you be my friend and don't ask where you be my mentor. Ask, can I learn from you? Would you take a half hour for me? Hey, tonight, after our kids go to bed, can I just ring you up and can we just talk and I learn from you? So, so basically, come at the most curious dad. And this is what happens, though, by being curious, especially if they're a dad that's just a, a stage ahead of you, not necessarily, you'll have mentors, you'll go after as well. But that is the best way to form brotherhood and friendship is to find someone who is doing it better than you. Get around them, be curious. And next thing you know, that's going to shift from a peer mentor to a friend that cares about you and loves you because the, the people that I want to spend time with the most are really curious and they want to learn and grow. So, so I think that's step one is I want you guys to all be curious and get into proximity with other passionate, intentional dads. And that, that'll be, that is the horse power that's going to help you go do the other things at home because you need the brotherhood first. You need again, it's kryptonite. You, you're walking around as Superman with kryptonite if you don't have brotherhood. Okay, so start there. And then, and then the second side, it's, it's the time and, and intentional, like start loving being a dad. And so that might mean that might, if your kids usually you play video games, change it up, do something to like grab a bunch of cardboard boxes and make a slide down your stairs and do something like just be there's so many. In fact, we've, we've my daughter and I have been doing YouTube videos every week with dad ideas. It's on our YouTube channel. We got 44 of them, 44 dad ideas and I'll, I'll pass along on the dad awesome YouTube channel. Yeah, yeah, it's on that channel. But, but by, by changing it up and saying, let's try some new things and I, and those ideas aren't mine. I've, I've crowdsourced them for my friends. It's semi creative ideas. So I'm just, I'm just gathering. I'm just gathering with my daughter. But, but guys, if you can start having shiny eyes and start loving being a dad, that's the next thing. It's brotherhood and then just start enjoying being a dad. And that is through doing new things. Like, don't get stuck in a rut. Don't get stuck in a rut. But isn't, isn't cardboard slides, isn't that dangerous? Oh, do dangerous stuff. We need to keep doing dangerous stuff. I, here's, here's a quick story. We, we actually, my daughter is now we do little workout. Like she wants to, give me some goals for the day. She's six. So I put bricks in a cardboard box and tie a ski rope to it. And my daughter's dragging it up and down our street. This bricks in a cardboard box. And it's safer than her dragging my 18 month old up and down the street. And she, she drags it until the cardboard wears out. And then she's done. Like, that's it. She just runs back and forth to the cardboard wears out. So you get this, this is a future Olympic champion. She loves the challenge. Yeah. Dragon bricks up and down my street, man. It's going to be a whole new workout program. But it beats, you know, flipping over tires from a huge machines and stuff like a lot of guys do. That's true. Steve weatherford, my friend, it does a has the vitamin company and supplements and, and is doing a thing called man Academy with his son. Right. And, and he's been putting it online. And he's got a bunch of guys doing it with him. And he does, but basically all his stuff is workouts. Sure. Yep. Workouts. And I'm like, dude, when you, just like, when you do a coffee thing with your son, call me. Yeah. I'll be there for that. I'll do the coffee thing. You guys do the diamond push-ups and all that stuff. So, man, that's cool, man. I love that. And so really loving being a dad, when you love something, you think of all of the different things that could go with that. If I love fishing, I'm thinking about the different lures that I could get. Yeah. And, and braided line, mono line, I'm looking at open face reel, you know, different thing. And I'm thinking about, you know, this, with this, you know, and all of a sudden, there's this huge world because I love doing it, right? And I think that would be the same that you're saying is love being a dad, which then opens up this world of what's the cool stuff we could do with what I love being. Yeah. Yeah. It's, again, if you're not, if you don't understand how much your Heavenly Father loves being your dad, like that could be to hang up that keeps you from. So beyond brotherhood, I mean, it's, it's again, and things like going for a walk, things like, I mean, there's, there's so many little steps. We actually, we created a daily text message that we shoot out from dad. Awesome. It's free. And it's daily. It's okay if I just share how to get on that text, just that text list. So it's, yeah, it's simply text the word dad to the number 77722. So just text dad to 77722. And that daily text is going to give you a little nugget of Bible verse to pray or some encouragement or some ideas or some, like, just ways to, again, be intentional. So really, it all starts with a life centered in Christ so that so that our disinclination to our Father in heaven becomes a love. And that centeredness, that having a true north, that having that texture in my life of being a recipient of unconditional love really then helps me move into brotherhood and into loving being a dad. Yeah. And that's really your predication on all of it. Hey, Jeff Zog, you're awesome, man. In fact, your dad awesome. Sorry, it was a dad, that's a dad joke. That's like a dad joke right there. You'll see. Yes. Yeah, you have. And you should do like a whole, you should have a tab for dad jokes. Yes. Okay, we'll add that. We'll add that. Yeah, I think that would be a great tab. We probably end up with a whole lot of guys, you know, adding to that too. I did one the other day in my granddaughter who's 13 now, the oldest Reese. She just looked at me and rolled her eyes. I said something. It was, you know, before we had to do the stay in place or stay away or whatever the thing's called. And I looked at her, she rolled her eyes and I went, oh my gosh, man, it has like a pure grandpa joke. You know what I mean? Yep. So I never had a grandpa around me like that. But my dad was that way to my kids and they still talk about it and they go, yeah, he would do this and we'd be embarrassed. And, you know, but that's all good stuff, isn't it? Because it comes out of love. Hey, Jeff Zog, dad awesome.org and substance church and Minneapolis. If you're up in that area, this is a great place with Pastor Peter Haas and the team there to be. And so, Jeff, we just pray for you and your beautiful wife and your three little girls. We pray that as a dad and as a man of God, every place you put your feet would be holy ground and everything you put your hands to it would prosper. And we pray that God would keep you and your family deep within the grip of his favor. And that in the years to come, we will see the beauty of the tapestry that God has painted in your lives. And thank God for dads like your dad. Amen. Thanks, Jeff. What are impactful principles that we can take from Jeff and allow us to be considered dads that are awesome? Yeah, you know, I think that the thing I see about Jeff and that he talked about was being present, you know, being there, not just being there, but actually being connected with your child and knowing them and seeing them and loving them for who they are and not who you think they're supposed to be. I think those are things that Jeff has been teaching with that awesome that are really powerful. And I've known him not only just, you know, through an interview, but he and I have talked a number of times just about what's going on in his life, transitions, changes, family, and you know, I like hanging out with guys like Jeff because he's upbeat, you can tell that. And he's upbeat. He's motivated. But it's not a false thing. It's not like, it's not like, hey, I've got to be upbeat because that's what I'm supposed to be because I'm doing a podcast. It's just who he is. Yeah. And I think who you are is what eventually eventually will come out. And particularly with fatherhood, man. So your kids see you. They know your stuff, bro. Yeah. I don't know. I don't care if you've been, think you've been pretty slick hiding who you actually are. I think your kids see it. Don't you? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely. I mean, they do life with you on the regular, right? Yeah. So I mean, transparency is key. Come on, man. Not only that. You know, kids are pretty smart, man. They pick up on stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm sure you've got, you've got siblings, brother, sister. I'm sure there are times where you never went to ask your dad about something. You'll always ask your mom because you need to get a better answer. Well, it doesn't every kid do that. Yeah. Right. But that's about what I'm saying. And then there's other times you ask your dad stuff because he's like, yeah, he'll let me do this because you know, and then you watch them live their lives together, right? And I think that what Jeff, what's good about what Jeff's doing with that awesome is it's being real and being transparent and living your life and, man, there's things we need. There's things I could have done better. A lot better as a parent. But I think one of the things that Judy and I did do is we were pretty, we were pretty transparent in front of our kids. You know, hey, we're not agreeing on something right now. They knew it. Yeah. And at the same time, they knew the daddy love mommy and mommy love daddy. Yeah. You know, there was just, I remember Brandon and talked about it who passed her C three four worth. And he talked about it at one of our anniversaries. I guess it was our 40s because now it's, so that'd be 10 years ago. And he said, you know, dad traveled a lot with his business, but we never felt unloved. And we never felt uncared for it. And we never, there was, there was a foundation in the fact that the way mom loved dad and the way dad treated mom, honored mom and the way mom respected dad and talked about him when he wasn't around. You know, and I think those things, those are real deals, you know, those are real things. And so when you talk about some of the principles, and we can go on and on in this stuff, but I don't want to make it complicated. I think we talked about it in a previous program, we talked about honor. Yeah. You know, one of the things the Bible says about husbands and wives is a husband supposed to love his wife as Christ loved the church at Sacrificially. Yeah. And then it says a wife is to respect her husband doesn't say then a wife is supposed to love her husband back. It's respect. Yeah. Because that's what fuels a man. Love is what fuels a woman. And I think when we learn those things, Chris, and as you move into finding the woman you're going to marry, you haven't found me yet, haven't you? No. Okay, good. Well, I just didn't want somebody listening going, I think it's me. We went out for coffee and then you come on and go, no, I haven't found her. She's like crushed, like listening to the podcast going, ah, shoot. Yeah. How am I on that guy? And so, uh, but you know, when you move into that, learning these things now from somebody like Jeff. Okay. And the people he's interviewing, which are great. And programs like this, like you and me talking about it. It's super important. Yeah. Because when you begin to find that relationship with the woman, honor her. And then she begins to return it in respect, not just expectation, but a respect. Yeah. Then you go, okay, this could be the right person. But if she's not respecting you, do that, some of that stuff is not going to change just because you spend more time together. Some of that's an internal thing with her. Well, and it's like, uh, yeah, don't, don't hang there. Yeah. Yeah. Don't hang out there. Right? Yeah. No, that's really good. And it's, yeah. That learning thing is so key. Yeah. And putting yourself around as a young person, you know, putting yourself around the right people to be able to learn, you know, that response. Yeah. So thank you to Jeff Zog with that awesome for being on today. And uh, we're praying that his fathers for the followers. Is that the thing that I talked about? Yes, the right in the bikes. Yeah, the right in the bikes. You're going to get a bike. Go right. Yes. Uh, I think there's one coming up in, uh, if you started training now, okay, I don't know how long they, I think it's like a hundred mile ride or something. Yeah, a hundred miles. Yeah, a hundred mile ride. Oh, you didn't know that. There you go. No, okay. Maybe by November 20th, you'd be ready. Okay. But you're going to have to get it now. Yeah. Okay. And so he's got, anyway, he's got someone 2022 coming up. So you start working out now, do the hundred mile sometime make sure. It's a, it's a big deal. But it's cool because it, it sponsors, uh, their ministry with that awesome and stuff. So, uh, let me mention that to you guys. Hey, thanks for being with us today on Brave Men, a ministry of the Christian Minnes Network, cmn.men. We love talking about the cycling men, mentoring men, growing up strong young men like Chris and, uh, building the lives of men who are dads and fathers because that's what we do in 134 countries around the world. 39 languages now going into Iran in a couple weeks and then into, uh, Thailand, uh, northern India, other places and dangerous places. Part of that dangerous nation thing you were talking about in mid break. So cmn.men, go, don't go to cmn.man. No. Now don't go to cmn. Go to cmn. Christian Minnes Network. Because seeing it will be a downer. And you don't know if it's true anyway. True. True. Yeah. Through that. Anyway, thanks for being with us today on Brave Men. Remember, hope is alive. Hope has a name. Hope's name is Jesus. Amen. God bless you guys. We love you. You've just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian Minnes Network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.