Brave Men S2E37: Matt Hammitt & "Lead Me" the song that almost destroyed a marriage

Matt Hammett wrote a song that almost destroyed his marriage. It was a song about marriage. Most of us have heard it at some point. It was called Lead Me. He was with a group called Sanctus Real and Sanctus Real took that and made it a hit song. They begin to tour it. It was about a man leading his family well. The problem was that Matt wasn't. And in fact, after he wrote the song, he was home for a while. He decided to go back on the road because it was so bad. And every night he's singing a song lead me. But he wasn't. You're going to hear the amazing story of Matt Hammett and a song that almost destroyed a marriage today on Brave Men. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Wisdom and Courage for the Journey. Matt Hammett wrote a song that has become like an anthem called Lead Me and had to do with fatherhood and those things. In a group called Sanctus Real, you guys were Matt, you guys well known, traveled the world hundreds of dates. And so I guess you would write a song about leading as a father because you had finally got to a place where you knew you were doing it right. You had everything together and you go, okay, might as well write a song about, here's how you do it. And so is that where Lead Me came from? Yeah, you're teasing me now, man. You know, just as you really would suspect absolutely not. You know, I was really at a place in my life where I was, I was hoping wishing wanting to have it all together. And sometimes in order for change to happen, we have to have that big reality check, right? That was a season for me. I felt like that whole season for me was just a huge kind of coming to grips with the reality of who I really was versus who I wanted to be. You know, I, I think I'd always had these dreams and imaginations of being this great man, husband, father, friend. And it would play, I think as many of us do, you know, we play our desires in our hearts and minds in our heads. And I think I had gotten so used to looping who I wanted to be in the intentions of my hard mind. That somehow I'd actually become that person void of real action. I wife really sitting down and just kind of having it come into terms with me and I was, hey, I feel like you're here, but you're not here. I know you want to lead us, but I don't feel really led. We're not praying together. We're not reading together and journeying together in a way that we are meant to, to be one. And you know, our kids are going to need this from you as a dad. And I'm just going to be honest. I'm not feeling that love right now in that way. And man, she was, you know, she just wanted to be heard and understood in ways that maybe I didn't know how to hear and validate and understand her heart as a woman. What a courageous thing. What a great to sing your wife's name, Sarah. Yeah, great to sing for Sarah to do. Now you had, let me just frame this. You're a teenager. You guys form a little band. Were you in church or were you in the club or what? Yeah. So we actually did a little buff. We started in the church. We had that opportunity to play clubs as well, but it was mostly leading worship in church and, you know, playing a lot of youth group events. So you started doing youth group events and then you get invited places and then pretty soon this band is like gets a song out. It gets known. And now you're in a sense you're living the dream, right? Yeah, I mean, it was crazy from in 2001 we signed our record deal. I got married for four years. My wife traveled full time in a band and trailer with us. So, you know, we kind of lived that dream together, but it was like we were poor and just, yeah, isn't that part of the whole deal is now that part of the sneak, you know, the Bob Dylan. It was crazy because it was a big irony in all this because when my wife had that conversation with me, I mean, she had many conversations during that season, but there was one day in particular where I felt very broken. By just what was happening between us and her heart and me feeling this frustration of like, okay, God, how do I really do all the things she's wanting for me because I'm not sure how I'm going wrong all the time here. And that was actually the day that I wrote the song, leave me. Here's the real irony. The irony is I wrote a song about being a more present husband and father because it was the desire of my heart. But the success of that song became the very thing that took me away the more. Wow. And so there's kind of this really big irony in the song that, wow, that meant it was my heart. That's what I wanted. But again, it was like it fueled more of the cycle of intention even because it was like, I still have these intentions. Now I'm singing about it, but now I'm on the road even more. Now it's like, you know, I'm singing these huge crowds of people who are all singing the song back to me and speaking every night, because I know I'm still not living it in the way that I'm meant to. So, so you write the song, leave me and if people don't know lyrics and I'm sure everybody's heard it at some point played over here on this little iPad. We are being. Oh, there's ads news. So I ended on that one anyway, there's an ad. We know we're being censored, you know. Oh, here it is. Oh, this is your official video I'm watching. Yeah, that's starting up with a truck or something. Yeah, the truck. Leave me. Hey, by the way, is that your pickup? No. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wish it was. So if people here, so right away, people go, oh, wait a minute, I know this song. I don't know if I just did a music licensing, no no right there. Not all right. So, but it's show me your and so it's like, I hear my wife saying to me, leave me. I'm working hard. I see their faces. I can. But and I think I've got it all together. But on the inside, I can hear him saying, leave me with strong hands. Stand up when I can't. Don't leave me hungry for love. Tasting dreams. What about us? Show me your willing to fight that I'm still the love of your wife. Show me that I'm still the love of your life. I know we call this our home. But I still feel alone. And is this a court? I guess this is the course or the bridge. So father, give me the strength to be everything I'm called to be. Oh, father, show me the way to lead them. Won't you lead me? Yeah. So now, okay, wait a minute. So you guys have this tough conversation. You've been married. How long at this point? At that point of eight years or so. Okay. So you've been on the road with her. Now you started having children. Yeah. Right. So you had two children at this point. Yeah. And now I'm on the road and she's home. Wow. So the whole story we were together. The whole thing has changed. So she's on the road. You're on the road. She's at home. Yeah. Now she's got kids, which means she's talking baby talk all day long. Yeah, exactly. No adult conversation. You call home. Hey, we had a great concert. How you doing? Everything's good. Okay, great. Go to go. And you write this song. You put it still an issue. And you're hearing people sing this back to you. Where did you come to grips with this? And you put it in your book, by the way. It's called lead me that just came out with Multnomah press. So Matt Hammett. And what's your website, Matt? Oh, it's just Matt Hammett.com. That's H-A-M-M-I-T-T. Matthamett.com. Yeah. Get the book there. It's on Amazon. Lead me. Multnomah press. Just came out. But you relate this. So now. You don't have to worry about this revelation, but it hasn't become practice. Yeah, exactly. I'm waking up at this point. To the fact that this person I've envisioned myself being because of my desires and intention isn't who I am in practice. And so. It was really for me kind of this awakening over the course of these. Two, three years of. You know, you're slowly putting these things into practice, but it was the process, right? And so lifelong habits and lifelong. You know, just routines that you have to break and step out and take action to connect with. You know, your spouse and the people you love, not. And then being in a distance. So that made it even harder. And so that was where the real tension happened for more than anything was this feeling of like I just don't. I used to. I think when I started thinking when all of this started coming. Very clearly to the surface. Was if I want to be an amazing frontman. For this band saying just real. When we're on stage. Well, I can only become that by showing up. And being on stage. And being with the guys and performing. That's how we become a good band. And I'm like. How can I be an amazing husband or amazing father if I don't show up for the job. Yeah, it's also a calendar. But it's also the balance, Matt. Yeah, we're a lot of us as men. That it's also how you make a living. Yeah, well, yeah, exactly right. Yeah. So it really became for me. And I'm a part of issue of context. What I mean by that is we all have gifts. And so I started thinking, okay, I've got these gifts. I have a gift to write. I did literally writing and musical writing and creative gifts and production and things that I've done for the band. And even outside the band at that time. But I'm using all my gifts to be part of this thing that takes me away from home. I've been using it for 150 days out of the year. Wow. And I started going. Is this the only way that I can use my gifts and still glorify God? And I begin to use my gifts in a context that still glorifies Lord that still reaches people. That still scratches that creative itch that I was born for. But also serves my wife and children and my family well. And that was really the conversation started coming out like in me and my wife like, can I do that? Is there another context in which I can still be creative? And I started realizing like definitely there was a healthier context for me. Yeah. And so you actually had to in order to complete that, you know, paradigm shift, you actually had to leave the band and. And I had to have been a real courageous step. But I want to go back to the and we'll come back up to that in a moment. But I want to go back to something you said where you said you had to break some patterns. Yeah. I think we as men, here's who we are as guys, here's who we are as men. If you come from a church context, no matter what context, you know, if you go to clubs or something and you go to the same place all the time, there's a certain place you sit. And if you come in and there's somebody there, you're like, wait a minute, that's my spot. If you're a church person, there's a certain place you sit. And when you show up on Sunday or Saturday night or whatever, it's like, wait a minute, there's somebody in my spot. And it's kind of like this, Matt. You know, as men, we get real, it's so easy to get into a place. It's like, you know, I was walking up in Alaska a couple of years ago and all of a sudden it hit me. I'm walking in this path that's been worn for decades and decades and it's where animals would walk to the water and they would walk the same path every day. And that became rutted and it became a habit. And so it's just the only way they would walk. Yep. And so that's what happens easily to us. If somebody hasn't put my little apple remote back in the right spot. Okay. My remote, what's going on here? But you had to break that, man, and what's the first step of breaking that? Yeah, and to get out of the rut, get off the path, right? Like you're talking about. And I think for me, it was number one, I already talked about like being willing to face the reality of who I really was. It's a crucial step, I think for us as men, right? And then decide if I was going to simply face it, if I was enough or if I was going to act out on it. Yeah. And so one of the things for me was beginning to carve out dedicated time to reconnect with my wife. I met scheduling time and finding time when I was home and when I was on the road to connect and begin to talk at a hard level about these issues. It's pretty easy for at least me, I know, and a lot of guys I know to kind of take the deeper issues that we need to face and kind of keep sweeping them under the rug, right? Like it's so being willing to kind of take that stuff off the shelf or from under the rug and say, okay, honey, let's talk through these very difficult sensitive issues that have caused conflict in our marriage and in our life. And let's really start digging in, even though it's not always pretty, it was being willing to confront the conversation and then see what those conversations were, you know, getting them what God was speaking to us in the midst of that about what really needed to happen. And so ultimately, I knew I had a choice to make. I always say in the seasons of life, I always I can recognize restlessness and I can recognize or release. There were years of restlessness where I felt I can't wrestling through this with God with my wife. And now I felt like, okay, in 2015, this is my release. This is my time when God is saying, go, I'm calling you to a new season that I've been preparing your heart for. And that's when we have to choose whether we're going to be obedient or not. And I struggled with that. When I knew I felt that release, I struggled very deeply with, am I going to be able to actually step out of my, my safe boat where I've been for 20 years and can I step out under the water and walk to Jesus in this moment in this call. And I think God, I think God all the time that I said, yes. And it wasn't easy. It was terrifying. Yeah. Away from something so comfortable. And I feel like I was letting everybody down in a way as a frontman songwriter. But, you know, it, it's just God spoke to my heart, too, even in that. Yeah. When I was like, okay, Laura, what's everybody going to do? You know, I read the songs and I sang and I've been representing the band. And he's like, do you think you're the only child of mine that I love? Yeah. Like it's all about you. You know, like this isn't just for you. This is for everybody. Yeah. It's Elijah. It's Elijah sitting under a rock. And I'm the only one left. Yeah. I got 7,000 other guys, dude. Exactly. You know, made that decision and I had a step away. And it was very terrifying in the moment, but a new guy was with us. And we've seen the blessing of that. Yeah. And so you've traveled with Kirk Cameron. And you guys have been doing these amazing conferences. You speak into people's lives on marriage and in fatherhood and all right. Let me ask you this because this is the core issue right here. Most of us is men. Our identity is not based on our heart, but our hands. Yeah. And so here you are with this great talent. And and it's really your stage became your identity. You wrote a song about where your identity should be. But really the identity was the fact that you sang that song. Absolutely. How did you shift that, Matt? How does how does one? How does a man shift that identity to become who he really needs to be? How do we make that transition? Well, that was one of my biggest prayers through it all is that guy would help me. To not see my identity any longer as the lead singer of the span. Wow. And and God did answer that prayer. Of course, it was a process, but as you know, whatever field we are, especially as as men. Not only do we have find our identity in that, but then our ego and our identity can kind of be. Yeah. You know, better or built up based on our this comparison game that we do. So part of that too is I had to stop comparing myself to other artists or musicians. And I had to detach myself from watching or looking at the playing field per se. Wow. That's huge man. My eyes off the charts. I had to get my eyes off the tour, the tours that were out. My eyes off everybody else who's having success and just ask, what is God calling to me to do that is successful for me and this calling. And I just had to take my eyes off of it. That's how I was able to make that just. You had to quit worrying about your Instagram game. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I had to start, you know, thinking about, yeah, that's right. What was crazy in all of this is that I prayed this prayer. I kind of, I really did detach myself in a lot of ways from comparing myself and looking at that playing field of music like I was saying. Step into this new role, focused on that and really felt like I was able to step into this identity of, of, of follower of Christ, husband, father at the core. And then the funny thing was my wife started to realize that she had to do the same thing. She was the one who was longing for me to be more present. She then was struggling once I stepped away with not being the wife of the lead singer is saying just real any longer. And so we both had work to do. We'll be right back with more of Paul's interview with Matt Hammett. Hey, if you haven't listened to the song, lead me. Maybe it's new to you. It's on Spotify and Apple Music. I actually reconnected with the song after listening to this interview. And I've got it saved on my Spotify. So little, little plug for Matt and his music there. The rest of his music is available on Spotify too. So you might check that out. Speaking of checking things out. We have a bunch of resources for you. As we record this, we're still in the middle of a pandemic time. So if you're looking for some to watch or listen to. Go to see a man. I'm going to highlight a couple things. First of all, see a man radio. You can see it there on the, on the navigation. If you have an iPhone, just go to the app store and download the CMM radio app. The same with Google Play. It's right there. CMM radio. That's 24 hours, seven days a week. It's the best of what CMM has to offer. We've got guest speakers, some of our events and Paul's podcast is on there. And some special messages even from his father, Edwin Lewis Cole. And we always like to ask you to take a look at that. So CMM radio is a great, is a great app to download. And you can have that right on your phone. Let's get back to the interview now with more of Matt Hammett. So these came from honest conversations. And I would think and tell me about your dad. Was your dad there in your life? What? Yeah. Or were there other mentors? How did that work? Yeah, I've had incredible man in my life. Thank God. You know, I had my father. It was, my father's not a man of many words, but he's a man of action who I always had to example for me. When I've needed him most, he always is right there to listen and speak wisdom into my life. So certainly my father spoke wisdom to me during that time and affirmed where he felt God was leading. And then, you know, I was still my youth pastor, Bill McGinnis, who was at the church of my child that for 30 plus years serving as a youth pastor and assistant pastor. And he still is a part of my life. And, you know, these are the guys that I would look to and go to and ask, how do I walk this? Actually, one of the guys that actually helped me the most in all of this. He was a guy named David Smallbone. And his kid, you know, I'm for King and Country, Joel Luke. And then his daughter was Rebecca St. James. And the reason he was such a help to me was because he had walked through the end of Rebecca's career with her. And he had had some regrets in all of that, that they didn't maybe spend enough time honoring the people who had invested in soda and at the end because she was just kind of burnout and wanting to be done. And so he said, take all the time you need to honor the people who built into this to honor God and end well. And that was one of the most helpful voices that I had in that time. I think Matt that as men, we don't realize how important just our words to somebody. I was talking with a guy the other day who's a very famous psychologist has written some books read by millions of people. And he said what because his dad passed away when he was 11. And he said the thing that shifted his life was like a youth pastor and a shout out to Bill again, by the way. What's the name of the church Aaron? Oh my goodness, he's actually in a little church now. I can never remember the name of it. He just moved to be close to his family because you know he's reaching that age. Good for you, Bill. Come on. But the church in Arkansas. Okay, this guy told me he said that he said that his dad wasn't there and he's in these teenage years and all this stuff. And he's ready to go into gangs and a guy like a pastor came and took him out to a coke a couple of times. Just a soft drink or something and told him, you know what, you're a great young man. And he just validated him. He said he probably spent at the most three hours with this guy. And just that totally shifted his life. And today's his stuff is read by so many people. Well, he went back and studied what happened in his life and all that sort of stuff. And it's a lot of what you've done with the book lead me and I want to thank you and I want to thank Sarah in particular. Well done Sarah, right? Yeah, she's she her voice in the book too is she pops up in these little moments, you know, and it's just invaluable because it's just at the right time to say, okay, wait, here's how I saw it. Exactly. Yeah, because we have a tendency, you're a writer and you're a musician or artist and we have the ability sometimes to paint these pictures. And then my wife will go, yeah, I wasn't quite like that. It was more like this. We have selective memory in a creative palette. I love that. But the fact that she would be courageous enough to say, I'm I'm sticking to this thing. We're going to make this marriage work. So I'm going to say what could be hurtful. And and it could come back to me in the wrong way, but I'm going to say it anyway, Matt, this is not working. Yeah, and we have to make it work. You know, or it's just because I'm going to stick here, but it's going to be hell. You know, thank God for a wife that would do that. And then and then you have to be present enough to dial into that. Yeah, absolutely. Right. You can nod your head and you can like say, okay, you know, and say all this stuff, but man, it's like that burden gets real heavy over time when it doesn't change. Yeah, you can nod your head like Zen, you know, like, yeah, being a different universe, you know, like a parallel reality. And you're not really listening. And that's a marriage turns to madness, right? Yeah. It's like it's the same old stuff over and over and over and over and over. Nothing changes. You keep saying you keep trying to get into change and never changes. And then it becomes insanity really. That's the pattern of abuse is is for men to say, no, no, it's going to be better. It's going to be better. You know, the average woman, you know, the we're in the middle of the coronavirus thing. You know that there are trauma hotlines, domestic violence hotlines that are up 300%. Oh, man. I heard some of the sands. This is heartbreaking. Yeah, it's terrible. I, you know, we're going to have a baby boom in December, but the problem is we're going to have a divorce boom in the summer. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. The baby boom is a powerful kind of hugeAHorn among people who have a baby boom. That creates wealth through God right now. That's based on people who have thousands of healthy, and we're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. We're going to have a baby boom. and not try to be the identity that somehow your talent has given to you. Right. Because until you build your character, your talent can take you beyond your character. Mm, that's a good word right there. Yeah, shoot man, the world you've been in, the business world, political, politics, athletics, we see it played out all the time. A guy's talent took him way beyond this character. Yeah. So you've got your true strength is on the inside and on the outside. So Matt, thank you for taking the time. Obviously this thing, this conversation between you guys worked, things got better, you got two more kids. Yeah, you have four kids now and man, you know, it's been crazy and we've done some fun stuff as a family now together, you know, Sarah and I and we've got to get you part of the weekend. Remember speaking team with family life and stuff that we get to do together that we really enjoy and we actually just finished a brand new project, feature-length documentary called Bowen's Heart, which is very raw documentary about walking through our son's major, third major open heart surgery at nine years old last year and as a family how that impacts his parents, how it impacts the siblings and what it's like to walk with the family that struggles in a very raw vulnerable, from a very vulnerable view. And so our hope with that is, you know, families, number one, realize they're not alone in the struggles when they go through difficult seasons. And also that'll be an example of how we choose to press in in the midst of pain as a family and allow it to bring us closer together instead of pulling us apart. Wow, how is your son now? He's doing well. Now he's got a lot of cure for his disease. You know, my third, he's my nine year old. Yeah, he's my nine year old. And he just, yeah, it's kind of day by day, month by month, we go see the heart doctor every six months and so we're just always in prayer for him and just enjoying his time with us and trying to take it for granted. Yeah, what's his name again? Bowen. So the documentary is Bowen's Heart? Yeah, you got it. You can actually at Bowen's Heart.com, you can actually watch as a splash page. You can actually watch the first look trailer. We're in the middle of talking to some distributors now. Well, fantastic. Man, I just pray that, you know, I just thank God for that because man, that, that would have all happened right in the middle of this whole transition in your life. Yeah, happened right after lead me came out. Yeah, lead man. Yeah, this is, we're talking layers and layers of stuff here, Matt. Yeah, yeah, it's all right about that in the book too and it's, yeah, it's been a crazy ride for us but God's been faithful, third off. Well, God's been faithful and you've been faithful. You know, here's the deal, Matt. I, a friend of mine has got a big campus, church campus and stuff and the guy was touring his campus with him in Sydney, Australia a few years ago and he turned to my friend and said, man, it's amazing what God's done here. And my friend looked at him and says, yeah, well, you should have seen him when God had it by himself. In other words, it was dirt and he, it wasn't me to sacrilegious. He was just basically saying, you know, faith plus works. You know, CS Lewis said there's, when you cut paper with scissors, which of those blades is the most important blade? James talked about faith and works and faith without work. So what you guys have had to do is actually work the work. Yeah, and, and take the effort and you get up and you say, okay, we're gonna do this thing and you build a rhythm into your life. And that takes courage and tenacity and guts and it takes huevos, you know, you just gotta step up and say, okay, I'm just gonna be a man and what a man's supposed to be. And with humility, because that's what I hear and everything you're saying. I mean, you're super humble on this stuff, Matt, because. Oh, thank you. You know, it's attractive. You know, the humility of Christ was attractive. You know, Isaiah said that we would be attracted to him not by his cumbliness or his handsomeness. You know, David was a handsome man. Yeah. In fact, in fact, Daniel was a handsome man. It says, in fact, Daniel wrote about it. He writes about it. He goes, the, the best, the brightest and the most handsome. We're taking captives. Oh, that's hilarious. I never, I never noticed that. I started Daniel and he goes, yeah, the most handsome. That's amazing. I'm like, dude, you're writing about yourself, man. I'm going to say yes. Humility and how I achieved it by Daniel, you know, but. Oh, that's funny. But the fact is that humility is attractive. And I think that we as men don't see that. And we don't pick up on it. And it's kind of the quarterback syndrome, you know, like we all want to hang around with the guy who's the quarterback. Yeah, you know, in American tradition, if guys are, if you're in other countries, it may be the guy is the best at cricket or maybe the guy is the center on the rugby team or whatever. And, but the fact is long term over the long term, the long haul. It's the guys like, even though I don't like Tom Brady, I really like Tom Brady. Yeah, he's an American football player, if you don't know who he is. And he's won a whole bunch of championships. And he's with the wrong team. So a lot of us who are fans of other teams don't like him. But I, but I really like the guy because he's really humble. About the stuff he's done. Yeah. And there's something about that map that if we would just learn that humility is actually attractive and humility actually helps grow our children in a more healthy manner. Yeah, that's right. Right? Yeah, I mean, the ability to admit your failures. I mean, gosh, that goes a long way. This is a wrap your kid. You know, my youngest son, Bryce, all my children are, I don't know if it's type A. I don't know what all the stuff is. I actually don't, but they're all the strong willed child. They're all James stop. You got all of them with a strong will on that stuff. You had no one as daughter and I got them all, you know? So, but nice in particular was very articulate in his, in his discourse with his dad, which would be me. And I, he'd be like seven, he'd go, but dad, last week you said this. I go, yeah, but that was last week. This week it's different. He goes, dad, you can't make it different because you got to make the same, but I go and like, you know what? I don't want to argue with anymore. Like seven, and he's, that's my senior. He helped me be a better dad. My son, Brandon helped me be a better dad. My daughter, Lindsey, because they would say things like, I'm walking with my daughter, Matt. You appreciate this. I'm walking with my daughter. And she must have been, we do dates, right? Every three months to do a date. Yeah. And even though I'm my business, I traveled like you and stuff. And this is part of what you probably learned as to those intentional times. And so I'm walking with her and I go, I said, you know, I always wanted to be a cool dad, you know, walking with my daughter. She looked up, even like, dad, she's like 11. Like, you can't be cool. You're a dad. And all of a sudden she went into my place. And the thing that really flipped me, Matt was when she was 13 years old. And I said, Hey, and, you know, we were successful in our business. It was going well. It's toughs going well. She's 13 and she says, I said, Hey, let's go grab, you know, a cook or something hamburger. Just the two of us and she goes, well, what's the agenda? And I, man, it just like hit me like a, like a, just a hit in the face, man. And I was like, what do you mean? And she goes, well, you know, if you're going to grab me for a hamburger, there's always an agenda. Oh, wow. And I got, Matt, I got tears in my eyes. Oh, man. And I said, baby, let's just get in the car. I got in the car, love that I did. I'm crying, I said, your dad is so sorry. And I apologize because I love you with all my heart. And I realized that what I'd done is I, I built these little boxes of agendas because that's the time I had. And rather than just say, Hey, what's up? I would say, Hey, here's what we need to talk about. And when I shifted that, it changed everything for me and my children because it was more like, Hey, let's go hang out with them as a person. Like they're an actual person. Yeah. And boy, that's shifted everything, man. I can't wait to hear your, I'm looking forward to some of your new music with all of this. Are you working on a, on a project right now? Yeah, I put one out, you know, at the end of 2017, a sell project and then I do have a lot of different music I'm working on, but I'm not sure what it'll come out. I'm kind of hoping the next thing will be a redefining, per se, even artistically, you know, not like a huge way of just kind of waiting for the gut stuff to come out, you know, like the real deep, deep stuff. It's, it's, it's flowing. I got a collection of them. So I don't know. So it's not a, you're not going like speed metal or something. Not at all, not at all. Yeah, okay. But that's fantastic. Now I just can't do anything but pray and hope and, and believe the best for you and Sarah and your family and your kids and, and the book you guys are going to write on parenting is going to be awesome. There you go, man. I'm all about that. You're going to be fantastic because you got to lead me thing. I mean, what's that? It's a lead in, right? It's a pre right. It's a prequel. Yeah, we definitely need to do that. You're absolutely right. Yeah, you should. And then, you know, the IG stuff that you could do on, on your, your family and, and I could see like a YouTube series and, yeah, because you guys have that stuff and, and I could tell Sarah's got that. I watched the documentary you guys did interview. So anyway, Matt, let me just say this, man, we just pray every place you put your feet is holy ground and everything your hands touch will prosper. Thank you. And that the Lord will keep you and your family deep within the heart of his favor. And thank you for being here with us and, and lead me brand new book. Excited about it. Matt Hammett dot com and lead me anywhere. Find your books are sold. Got it. Right. And it's great, man. Thanks for taking the time to be with. Yeah. Thank you, Paul. I appreciate you having me on. I'm asked very cool to hear what you're doing. I just trust that God keep using it to build these men up. Lead me because I can't do this alone. That's how the song ends. Lead me from, from 2010 and, and that was, that was really an inspirational interview. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah. And, and the fact is is that, you know, he tried to do some of the right things. He's talking about doing the right thing, but he's like all of us. But, but not all of us have written a song that everybody started singing about what I'm not doing. I'm on. You got what the pain was like every night. You know, he's singing this song and everybody's like, Oh, man, I love that song. And then he's calling home. How are you, huh? Yeah, I'm good. You know, when you come home, maybe in a couple of months. All right, bye. Wow. Yeah, but you know, the beauty of being a follower of Christ. Really, Brian, is that they had a basis from which to repair and a reconcile and build a great marriage. And now today, you know, they're doing amazing stuff. Now, they got a new book coming out. We didn't talk about it much. Made a little bit, but, but he's, you know, so a mad hammer at his website. You go on there and find out, find this music. He's doing some new albums. You know, it's always, he just got a lot going on and he's a great speaker. I, I just, you know, think the world of this guy. I'm really, you know, it's kind of one of those guys you go, OK, what an amazing story. And then you go, man, I'm going to root for this guy. Sure. Yeah. Do you, do you think other people in the spotlight, whether it be a pastor or a men's minister or a boy scout leader? Is it a similar position where they are saying one thing during the day? It's like a pastor, for example. Yeah. You know, this is, this is something we teach our young guys in Krishman's network is this. It's, it's a basic principle. You either minister from those areas in which you've been tested or you'll be tested in those areas in which you minister. So if you're going to stand up and talk about pornography, but you have in dealt with it, dude, you're about to get hit upside this face, man. It's about to get smacked because you didn't deal with it. And you're trying, and I know that we all talk about things that are right and honest and pure and all that because we're supposed to. But I think we have to, if we're going to get up and talk about stuff, you know, we need to at least be on in the process of being honest about it. Right. You know, I've, I've got friends, they're the marriage ministers of Lakewood Church Clayton and Ashley Hurst. Oh, yeah. And, and Lakewood Church is a pretty big church in Houston. Yeah. And they wrote, they wrote a book. It's been a year or so ago about about their own struggles in their own marriage while they're running a marriage ministry. While the marriage ministry. Yeah. Yeah, very transparent about it. Yeah, I can tell you two guys that I know right now are going to tell you two couples who were in the middle of national marriage ministries and split up. You know, so these are real things. And so, you know, I'd say kudos to Matt and his wife. But frankly, it's, you know, well done, man. And I love stories like this. That's why I said, you know, I'm always rooting for guys like this Brian. Yeah. Because these are the models that we want our kids to see. Sure. Sure. Well, that was a great interview. And again, it's so great that you're able to connect with such amazing people around the world and bring them here to the Brave Men podcast. So, those things for me to do that. If you'd like to be a guest in the podcast, let us know. Or if you have feedback or requests, just let us know. Paul at cmm.man. Also, we love our subscribers and sharers. And this podcast is available on Apple Spotify, iHeart, Pandora, and Google a lot of other places where podcasts are listened to. So, if you wouldn't mind, just we'd love you to hit that subscribe button. And it does come up and it's helpful for us in letting Apple and the other guys know that people listen to the podcast. So thank you for that. For Paul Cole, I'm Brian Boyd. Again, thank you for listening to today's Brave Men podcast. You've just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian Men's Network. Connect with Paul at cmm.man or write to him at Paul at cmm.man.