Brave Men S2E27: Dr. Gary Chapman - Choose Greatness

I was talking with Gary Chapman the other day for Brave Men and it struck me, you know, the five love languages is the famous book that he wrote and Brian, one of the things that immediately is he and I were talking, I thought, and this guy, what an amazing man because he's been married to the same woman for over 40 years and I thought, okay, well, maybe this five love languages thing actually works. Well, I'll tell you what, my wife speaks Italian, so we do need some, does Gary talk about the Italian love language in his book? Okay, these are principles. I think if we learned Italian, there would be some more of that and there might be just more kids too for that matter. But the fact is that Gary Chapman, I mean, we hear about this guy, but we forget about the person behind, you know, like this, like five love languages is a technique, but no, for him, it's a lifestyle. Right. That's what's amazing about it. You know, it's an easy read to, I've read the book and it's not a difficult read. There's a lot of value in the book. How did you manage to get time with Gary to talk to him? You know, he is an amazing thing. This is one of the things that really impressed me about him is he's actually still the senior associate pastor of a church in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. When he wrote the book, he was doing ministry to couples that he writes his book and it takes off and you know what, this guy is so steady, he stayed there and I thought, you know what, that's the kind of man I could listen to. He's not running here and there trying to do the next big thing, trying to create a funnel for sales and all that, you know, he's just a solid man. And what he says today and Brave Men is absolutely going to be a game changer for many of us. It's Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole, wisdom and courage for the journey. Dr. Chapman, you just come out with a book recently called Choose Greatness and it speaks of wise decisions, 11 wise decisions that Brave Young Men make. And I guess my first question would be this, you say choose greatness but aren't most young men a product of their environment? You know, I like to say we are influenced by our environment, there's no question about that, but we are not controlled by our environment. And someone who comes up with any circumstances can have a vibrant life, they can be a great person for God, they can make an impact on the world. And that's what we're trying to do with this book is help young men get on a track for using their lives in a positive way for God and for good. Now, when you say get on a track, does that mean every man has a track, you know, and how do I find that track? Well, in this book, we're not so concerned about like vocational tracks and that sort of thing. We're just saying, you know, here are 11 areas that the decisions you make in these areas are going to impact the rest of your life, either negatively or positively depending on whether you choose wisely or not. So we're trying to help young men think about every decision you make has a consequence. And if you make good decisions, there's positive consequences. You make poor decisions, there's negative consequences. And so we're just trying to help young men make the most of their lives. So when you talk to a young man about his decisions, part of it is what you've put into book, as I read it, and it's also, I will mention to dads that are watching, this is the book to get to help mentor your son. So you can read it along together, right? But you're asking young men to actually own or take responsibility for the results of their decisions. Absolutely. And you're exactly right. We're really encouraging fathers to read this book. And at the end of the chapter, there's questions that the father's son can discuss. The son's answering the questions. The father's maybe sharing, you know, how he handled that when he was that age, good or bad. But it forces a couple, it forces a father and a son to talk with each other. Now we also understand that there's thousands of young men out there who don't have fathers in the home. And we acknowledge that in the book. And we're saying, you know, maybe your mom, your grandmother can find you a trusted male that would be willing to read this book with you, you know, we're trying to foster the idea of if they don't have a father in the home, let's find a Christian man who would be willing to kind of walk with them through this and maybe start a relationship that may last for years, you know, as a matter of fact, my relationship with my co-author is really that. I met him when he was 14 years old and he came to a youth ministry at our church and we just bonded and we've walked together for over 50 years now. Wow. So Claire Schuer, who co-wrote this book, Dr. Chapman, you met, in other words, in some ways or maybe, and you can tell me how it happened, do you became a mentor to him that? Yeah. And obviously a mentor always learns a lot from the other person. Oh, yeah. You know, with Claire tonight, you know, he's African-American and I'm white and we met back in the days when school integration was just starting and he and his buddies showed up at a meeting with a hundred white kids that walked in and they were invited by our kids because they'd met him at school. And I just went out and welcomed him and then he started coming, you know, and went to summer camp with us that summer accepted price as a savior and then started coming to our house for Bible studies that we had, you know, and it was just, it was just God guiding each of us and I learned a lot from him in the process. And obviously he would say, I am back in his life, a great deal. So, you know, mentoring is always a two way street. Yeah. See, now here's the thing. I've got, we've got a number of men. Let's say there's a number of men and they hear this and they go, wow, I've got some young man in my world that I'd like to help. I really don't know how to start. I don't know if he's going to look at me and think, well, you're just an old guy. What do you know? Yeah. How do we push past that sort of obstacle, Dr. Chum? Well, you know, I think all relationships are built one on one and they have to start somewhere. So, I think you ask yourself, you know, are there young men in my life that I rub shoulders with periodically? They're kind of in acquaintance, but maybe they don't have a father in the home, for example. And maybe I could just invite them to go to a ballgame with me or invite them to something, you know, that I think they would enjoy. And it's in doing things together that the child, the young man becomes just a feel like, you know, this guy cares about me and I can learn from this guy. So, you know, the book is a tool to help that process, but it doesn't start necessarily with the book. It starts with, you know, building a relationship and then this will be a tool to really focus in on some key issues. Yeah. So, there's the key is it starts with relationship. So what's the best way for a dad or a mentor to be a role model? How do you open that up? And in fact, you know, transparency, what are we looking at there? Well, you know, there is a sense in which as a dad, we are a role model. We are a role model, whether we acknowledge it or not. We are influencing our sons and our daughters. So I think the awareness of that should sober us to think in terms of our own lifestyle. In fact, one of the most sobering thoughts I've ever had in my life as a father is, what if my children turn out to be like me? Oh, gosh. Wow. I have to pull you up for it. Or if you've got a daughter, you don't want the man, young man, showing up at your front door, who looks like you used to look like. You know, in a family situation, our model, the way we do things, the way we talk, things we do, influence our children more than what we say to them. Wow. You know, often we say things, but then they don't see that in us. So to me, being a father or a mother, for that matter, is a sobering thing when you realize you're having a profound influence upon these children, God helped me to be a positive influence. Yeah. Perhaps for many men who tell their children, don't talk to your mother that way or respect your mom. Yeah. Perhaps quite often what they're really doing and we're somewhat tone deaf at times, Dr. Chevin. What they're really doing is mimicking how they heard us talking. That's right. If you hear your son or daughter yelling, ask yourself, where do they learn that? Wow. Now, Dr. Chevin, this didn't come out of some sort of theoretical conceptual thing. You've actually been on the ground for 48 years, right, counseling, family counseling. You've been on the same church staff. You must have a couple of pretty good people there, you know, to get along or maybe it's because you are an expert in relationships that you've been able to do this. Well, I've worked with three senior pastors during that time. I'm an associate pastor and I've worked with three senior pastors through those years. Sure. There's an interim a couple of times, but same church 48 years, been an absolutely wonderful journey. Well, I want to commend you, first of all, to everyone who's listening or watching, I want to commend you for that faithfulness. Second Timothy 2.2, God wrote through Paul to the young man. He was mentoring Timothy and he said, find faithful men. He said, the things I've given to you in late hands on you, find faithful men who will be able to teach others. So I believe true characters shown in faithfulness. So I commend that. So what you're saying, though, is that in that period of time, you've ministered to mentor it or helped men in their walk with God, hundreds of us. So this doesn't come just out of, hey, these are great ideas. No, this goes out of really a lifetime of working with people. And also, as I said with Clarence, a lifetime of our working together and that's why we wanted to write this book together, because he too has mentored other men through the years and a young man. And so, yeah, this, and we share our own experiences in these decisions when we talk about, you know, decision. We share whether we were made a wise decision or didn't make a wise decision, you know. I saw the part on alcohol you each had different experiences about what stopped you. Yeah, yeah. But it influenced me to say, I'm not going to walk that road, you know, my grandfather was an alcoholic and I give the story of my dad and I picking him up out of the ditch when he was drunk and taking him home and he was telling us he didn't need our help. And, you know, and I just saw that and I thought, man, I don't want to end up like this. I'm not going to start down that road. A young man that doesn't see that, in other words, he only sees what's on social media. He sees parties and he sees all those things. That is so attractive. How do we help young men navigate this Instagram world that we're in today? Yeah. Well, you know, that's one reason we writing this book is we're trying to give them a different perspective and sharing our own journey and sharing the journey of some others who made poor decisions and trying to help them really emotionally experience the results of making poor decisions. And yeah, you're right. Young men are influenced greatly by social media today. That's why a father, if you're in a home, you know, where the father and son are working together. You remember as a father, we're the parent and we're the ones who decide the guidelines. You know, we say, you know, you can spend this much time or you can go to these sites or you can do this. But we have to help them make wise decisions. And when they make poor decisions, we need to be there to hear them apologize, forgive them for that. Okay. Let's move on. You fell down one time. But I'm with you. We're going to make it. We're going to go through this. You know, I hear, and that is the role of a father is to pick a child up. Paul said there's a difference between instructors and fathers. He said you have 10,000 instructors, not many fathers. An instructor gives you what he knows, but a father gives you who he is. So an instructor will say, here's why you fell down and a father will go pick him up first. Yeah. Yeah. What can we learn from this? Exactly. So how, you know, how do I help a young man? You said to emotionally connect with the results of his decisions, how do I help a young man do that? Well, you know, I think there are different ways. One of the things I do with my own son, I would go to the juvenile detention center about once a month on Saturday night and just play ping pong and meet kids who are there. And when he got to be a teenager, I start taking him with me. Oh, wow. We would go there and play ping pong and talk to these kids and then drive home. I would say, think about it, Derek. Those guys are your age. They're not going home tonight because they're broke to law. You know, I would clip out articles. They, if I saw, for example, a teenager who was killed by a drunken driver. I would say, Derek, read this, son, this guy is your age and look what happened because somebody was driving drunk. You know, just kind of facing reality, helping them have the opportunities to face reality that their consequences to the decisions we make. You know, I have a, there's sort of a thing today, Dr. Chapman and in it, in our church that we started with my son pastors now, Pastor Brandon. I've had, I've heard parents talk about 11, 12, and 13-year-olds and say this. Say, well, he's not here this weekend or she's not here because we're letting them choose their path of life. Yeah. I'm looking at him going 10, 11. What? You know, where does that, how do you speak into that, Dr. Chapman? Because that seems, I'm hearing that a lot and I'm hearing a lot about, well, they need to, you know, I want to be my child's best friend. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Well, you know, we can't always be friends if we're going to be parents. Wow. Yeah. Parents have the responsibility to give guidelines to the good life and to say, you know, some things we do, some things we don't do. If you break this particular guideline, then here are going to be the consequences, you know, and let the child know that this is the way life is. Here are the rules. If you don't follow them, they're consequences. And as we lovingly apply the consequences to when they break a simple rule of any kind, we're teaching them, you know, when you do wrong, there's going to be bad consequences. Yeah. And we have to accept that. You simply say the child, do what you want to do. You are raising a delinquent child, I tell you because by nature, we're going to make the wrong decisions. Yeah. We've got to be there to encourage them and help them make the right decisions. Every, every wrong decision that's ever happened in my life has one constant. I was there. Yes. So, so now, but what now what we're talking about is discipline and discipline always though has to come out of love. What would you say are the most important two or three things that when you deal with dads and you talk with hundreds and you've over your lifetime have talked to thousands of fathers, mentors, stepfathers, what are the one, two, three most important things you tell them, hey, at least do this. If you can't do this. Well, I would say first of all, in guidelines, think about what guidelines will be helpful to this child. Don't just go on what your daddy did, but ask you know, what's the wise thing for this child? And what are the limits I should give? But when you when you have a rule, always tell the child what the consequences are if you break the rule. We don't throw the ball inside the house, okay? If you do, you've lose the ball for two days and we have to pay for the vase you broke out of your allowance. So, Dr. Chat, but I got in trouble for that at my house from my wife at Christmas. That's my grandkids. So, okay, so first of all, you've got guidelines, which are in other words are standards. Yeah. So raising a standard is actually then giving a child an identity. This is who I am as a chaplain. Yeah. Right? This is this is the way we do it in our family because they'll say, well over here they don't do that. They do this and they I stand that son and that's their parents, but I'm your parent and I want to do what I believe is best for you. Sometimes I'll make a mistake and when I realize that, I will apologize to you, but I want to make I want to do what I can to help you have the best possible life. The other thing I would say about discipline, when you have to discipline a child for having broken a rule, wrap it in love. If you know their love language, you know, a big old love language is okay, if you know their love language, speak their love language before and after the discipline. If words is their language, you say, you know, Johnny, I'm so proud of you. You seldom break the rules, but you know, you broke this one and you know what we have to do, right? The ball has to go in the car for two days and you can't play with it and we'll have to take the money out of your allowance to play for the base you broke. But listen, man, I love you so much. You usually make really wise decisions and I know, we all make mistakes once in a while. I love you so much. That child's going to walk away feeling, this is fair. I deserve this. You don't do that. You yell and scream at him. You know what I told you? Don't throw the ball in the house. You know what's going to have to happen? Then the kid thinks, goes away feeling, man, I try to do right. I'm missed up on one thing and I get covered. You wrap the discipline in love and the child's far more likely to be sleeping as a positive thing. I think that's huge right there, particularly in our culture. We have it because we're living in this chaotic world right now that's, and I don't know that it's any more chaotic. It's just that we know about all the chaos, right? So it feels like, and you see it in social media, it feels like we can get angry pretty quick. Yeah. And, you know, that, I think that's the key that everybody needs to write down right now that's listening or watching is, always wrap discipline in love. Yeah. Yeah. That's huge. We'll be right back with Paul's interview with Dr. Gary Chapman in a moment. But I wanted to take a second to let everyone know listening. First of all, we thank you for listening. Thank you for subscribing, whether you're on Apple or Spotify or Google or I heart or anywhere else that this podcast is available. We are grateful for your time and clicking that subscribe button. It means a lot to us here at Brave Men. There's a lot of resources available for you at CMM and I want to make sure you know exactly where to go to learn more about Christian Men's Network. So CMM.Men, CMM.Men is your one stop for all resources related to the ministry and things you can do. Also, achievelab.org is filled with content. We've just added hours and hours and hours of content to achievelab.org and it's easy to go through, select the content, watch it and you need to check it out, achievelab.org. The last thing I want to point out is every Monday at 9 p.m. Eastern, Paul does a live interactive talk called CMM.Men Monday Night Men. It's Monday Night Men on YouTube and Facebook. In fact, if you just go to YouTube and search for Monday Night Men, you'll find it. But it's live every Monday at 9 p.m. and you'll definitely want to check out Monday Night Men, especially during this time of stress and changes here in the world. This is 28 minutes and 30 seconds of valuable, valuable information and you'll want to tune for that. So that's Monday Night at 9 p.m. Eastern. Hey, let's get back to the interview with Dr. Gary Chapman. Where have you seen fathers make their largest mistakes? Well, I think the largest mistake is in their behavior because when we go against what we've taught them to do, that's devastating to a child. When they see their father doing things that they've been taught not to do. So I think that's where we make the biggest mistake and that's why I think, and I say to fathers, listen, I know we're not perfect. We all make mistakes, but when you make a mistake, apologize to your child. If you hear yourself raising your voice and speaking harshly to your wife, your children hear that, don't just apologize to your wife and private. You can do that. But the next night, when you're sitting around the table, you say, you know kids, I need to apologize to you. Wow. You've heard me raise my voice and speak harsh to your mother, and that was wrong. No husband should ever talk to his wife that way, and no children should ever have to hear their father do that. So apologize to your mother and she's forgiven me, and I want to apologize to your kids and ask you to forgive me. So that is a powerful impact. Apologizing to our children is not a sign of weakness, a sign of strength. Sometimes people say, well, if you apologize to your kids, won't they lose respect for you? No. They gain respect. They already know that what you did was wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, that's true, and how do you guide, and we talked about it a moment ago, the Instagram world, TikTok, whatever periscope, whatever the next thing is, how do you guide a young person through the digital world? Because do you find, let me ask you, maybe it's a two-part question, do you find that the digital world is as addictive as some other things that young man or a young woman can get into? And particularly we're talking about young boys. Yeah, it certainly can be. We have a chapter in that on the book. One of the decisions is to make the decision, to make technology work for you, not against you. There's a lot of good things about technology. And we talk about using it to learn and study, and don't just do your homework at school, but find out additional ideas about that topic. So there's a lot of good things about technology, but there's also a lot of pitfalls in technology. And I think that's what we have to do. And I think from the parents perspective, there ought to be times in the day when technology is, we don't do it during those times. For example, at mealtimes, no technology. So we don't jump up an inch of the phone either, that we're here to eat and talk. And we don't, we don't do technology during that time. No technology in the bedroom of children, no, no, no, no, no. You can read books in there before you go to sleep, but no technology in there. Some of those simple kind of things that guidelines that we lay down can save a child from inadvertently getting into trouble online. Wow. So then, now you said something, it's really key right there. And we've just got a few more minutes left in this time. And I thank you, Dr. Chapman, for taking and investing the time into those men and women that will listen to this. But you said something right there a moment ago, you said in the next evening, sitting around the table, my understanding, the statistics I've read, is the average family in America doesn't have time to have a meal together ever. Yeah. How important is that, not only out of your experience, but out of the things you've studied? I think it's extremely important, what you're saying is exactly right, very few compared, compared to the whole, really have one meal a day together. But I think that is one of the most important things in developing family. We eat together, first of all, we talk to God, thinking for our food, then we eat together and talk to each other. And our kids came back from college and brought college students home with them, and we'd do the same thing. We had done their whole life, sit around the table and talk after lunch, dinner. And they would say to them, you're family to do that all the time? I've never done that with my family. And our kids say, that's one of the best memories they have. Is sitting around the table, talking about the day, how did things go, ups and downs of the day, sharing bags and things, and I do just informal conversation. Where else are they going to get it with somebody they respect? So yeah, I think it's worth making time to have a meal together. Yeah, I, in the studies that I've read, particularly Harvard, they, you know, Harvard is not an accredited university because it's just Harvard. And so they are their own accreditation, and the work product, in other words, the people coming out of it. And they begin to use only test scores a number of years ago. And as I read about that, and I talked to Leonard Sweet about it, and he's the one that alerted me to that, when they begin to do only test scores for intake, rather than a lot of the other things they used to look at, participation in extracurricular activities and so forth and so on. They begin to go only on test scores. The results over the next decade of what would happen to people's lives afterwards begin to go down. And they begin to look at, why are we not having the great success afterwards? Why are people not moving up in their companies or whatever it may be? And they begin to, and as they begin to look at it, they realize that what they had missed and just looking for test scores was they had missed a small little area called character. And then as they studied character, what they begin to look at is, well, how do you define that? Where is it developed? And how would we see that in an incoming, because what you bring in is part of what you send out. So intake is important. I mean, that's why Jesus chose the disciples. He didn't just take the first 12 guys that showed up. And what they found was this is fascinating to me. They found that if a student, an incoming student, had had a meal with their family at least twice a week as they were growing up, their expansion of their character, the depth of their life and the eventual results of their life were always greater than if that hadn't been the case. Yeah. That's the reason, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It is. I can see that. I can see that because just so many social skills and the forming of thoughts and ideas and morality, what's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's bad, all of that, the parent needs to have that influence on the child. Otherwise, somebody else will have that influence on the child. Somebody is going to have influence. So maybe as a mentor, going back to you and to Clarence Schuller, maybe part of the whole thing for us as men in developing the next generation, where I live in Dallas, in the junior highs, in the Dallas Independent School District, 78% of the young men have no father in the home. They may have a boyfriend that goes through, they may have a grandparents somewhere, but by and large, there's no man influence their lives and thank God for coaches, thank God for other men who step in. So for those young men, as a concerned man, let's say in a local church and community, which I think is probably one of the most important places that we solve this entire issue. So for me as a man, just grabbing a young man and going for a, you know, a bite to eat a hamburger or something like that, I don't necessarily have to be a theological genius. Yeah. I mean, just a hamburger might shift and move a young man's life, is that, am I accurate in that? You've seen this. Yeah, absolutely. I think anytime you show interest in a young man's life, by such things as having a hamburger together, or going to a sporting event, if they happen to be playing at the sport and you see them before, see them after, encourage them, that sort of thing. They come to respect you and then, then your conversations, then like working through a book like we're talking about to choose greatness is going to have an impact on their lives. But it's because you showed interest in them and you respected them as a person. That's why we have the impact. Not simply a teacher standing up in front of a room, talking to a whole group of people about something, you know, I mean, that's positive, it can be positive and helpful. But it's that one-on-one with students that can really make a difference. You know, Jesus built his disciples. We see instances where he taught the crowd. But I would say that more often than not, the parts that we don't read about are him sitting around a campfire in his house in Capernaum or whatever may have been just sharing life. Yeah. Yeah. And they caught hears who he is. And even then, they didn't quite get it, didn't they? We don't produce perfect people, okay? Jesus didn't either. Man, and they ended up getting, I mean, getting each other's faces, Paul has to come along who wasn't even one of those guys. That's to help correct some things. And I love what Paul said a couple of times he said, I was great, you know, vigor rebuked them. Yes. In other words, these are Jewish guys. I mean, in other words, they went at it. So I earn, does sharp an iron. So letting our sons or young men see our decisions, doing life on purpose with them, providing standards, guidelines, being consistent. That means consistent in our guidelines and consistent in showing up, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. What you said in the book is, great lives don't happen by accident. And I want to thank you, Gary, for, you know, and a book like this doesn't happen by accident. This comes out of life. It comes out of the pain of crying over some guys who made poor decisions of watching young men live their lives and then watching a young man like Clarence, who was 14 when you met him, live, grow up in his life and end up being the co-author of a book like this. So I want to thank you for that. Thank you for writing a book called Choose Greatness. I want to mention it again. We'll have it on our website, we'll have a photo of it, how to get it from your ministry. And I just want to pray blessing on you, Dr. Chapman and everything you're doing and the days ahead for vibrancy and vigor and strength as you travel and as you write. And I thank God for your faithfulness there are 48 years in that same place. It's absolutely remarkable and then how God blessed the book, Five Love Languages. And then of course all the ones that have come after that is, if you will, derivatives line extension have been remarkable. So God bless you, brother. Thank you. Well, thank you, Paul. And thank you for what you're doing with fathers and helping them with their job and helping others who can mentor young men who don't have fathers. And we're just hoping this book will be a tool that they can use that will help them in the process. Yeah. Yeah, I read the whole thing. It's a great book and it's something I wish I had had with my sons. I had one of my dad's books and I still have, when they were nine and 10 years old, they're now in their 30s. Uh-huh. I set them down every Saturday morning at 9 a.m., which apparently at 9 and 10 was too early. But I got them up at 9 a.m. and I set them at the kitchen table and for an hour every Saturday morning, we went through my father's book called Strong Men and Tough Times. Yeah. I had to explain some things. But I also began to treat them as young men who were making decisions at 9 and 10 that would shape their lives later on. Absolutely. Absolutely. But we don't need to put our children and our young boys and our young men off into some little side room and have parties and games. Nothing wrong with that. But we also need to disciple them on purpose. Yeah. So thank you for writing the book. Well, thank you, Paul. Good to be with you today. Good to be with you. Wow. Uh, that was great, Paul. I mean, uh, but I'm hoping it was a game changer for you. Yeah. That was my hope. I mean, the only reason, in fact, we did this whole thing. Brian. There you go. There it is. In your wife, I knew you guys do marathons together and all that. And, uh, but, but, you know, I don't know if she told me, told you about the text she sent me. And I said, okay. Garry Chapman on the show. Let's just give out your text number right now. I'm going to text Paul live right now. Is there a guy? Yeah. I don't even know what I'm saying. No, the thing is, you know, well, they can't write to me at Paul at cmn.man. Paul at cmn.men. But seriously, that email goes directly to Paul. Yeah. And so these, this stuff, though, I mean, really, man, you heard this guy's heart, Brian. And I know we spent a lot of time with him, um, and, but there was a ton of content. And again, I would have to say that, that part of making a marriage work is, is making sure that we have our center set, Gary talked about that. And that's why at Christmas Network, we have all these resources and tools. It's not just about getting more information or reading a great book. It's about, can I become the man? I know I was placed on the, and I want to be that for my family. And so the love language that we talked about, you know, and giving and, and forgiving and all of that, you know, so remarkable, man. Well, that's, that's really great. It's amazing the folks that you've been able to speak with, Paul. And you've had NFL players, you've had authors, you've had speakers, and coming up over the next few podcasts, I'm actually looking at a list of who you're speaking with soon. And this is really cool. So, so everyone listening, please continue to subscribe. You can click the little subscribe button on Apple or Google or Spotify. And, you know what, Brian? That's a huge thing. Yeah. Because, you know what, it does a couple of things. It, it actually, the analytics of the way all this online stuff is done. Every time someone subscribes, it goes into an analytic that tells I heart to whoever. Hey, people are like in this show. So it means a lot, not just to us, but to all those analytics that puts us in front of more people. And also, you'll, you'll find out about when we drop a new show, Bam, there it is. And because we've got John Elders coming up, we've got people that aren't even on your list yet, Brian. Oh, wow. Yeah. Can't wait. You'd tell me, but then you'd have to. Yeah, well, then, yeah, we'd have to tear up your list. Yeah, that's right. So, cmn.man is the destination for you to learn all about Christian men's network. And as Paul just mentioned, you can email him directly, Paul at cmn.man, P-A-U-L, at cmn.man. So thank you again for listening to this week's podcast of Brave Men for Paul Cole. I'm Brian Boyd, and we'll see you next time. You've just experienced Brave Men with Paul Lewis Cole. Paul is president of the Christian men's network. Connect with Paul at cmn.man, or write to him at Paul at cmn.man.